• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Me 209, Variants & Projects

c460

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
395
Reaction score
6
There was a book recently published on the Me 209 by Aviatic Verlag, written by Ferdinand Käsmann, ISBN 3942645033.
However I don't know how much new information is given inside.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
5,961
Reaction score
342
There were two types of Me209 fighter.
Me209 fighter(V4) was developped based on record breaker Me209(V1 to V3). Of course development was failed. ;D
Me209Ⅱ fighter(V5 to V7) was developped based on Me109 after Me309 failure.
So Me209Ⅱ fighter had bigger area tail stabilizer, longer moment arm for tail stabilizer and larger nose radiator compared with Me309.
V5=A-1 with DB603G engine
V6=A-2 with Jumo213 engine
V7=H V-1 with DB628 engine and long span wing

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=763

So Bf109 ⇒Me209V4⇒Me309⇒Me209Ⅱ⇒Me509?
(Me409 was a twin Me209Ⅱ.)
 

Attachments

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
5,961
Reaction score
342
This Me209v4 is a modified version of the V1. The main difference is that it carries two MG17s and one MG-FF cannon.
You can see normal shape radiator under the wing instead of skin cooler(v1 to v3), two guns at the nose and 20mm cannon at the spinner in three side view drawing.
 

Attachments

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
5,961
Reaction score
342
The glory of Me209V1 record breaker had bad influence for a design of successor of BF109 fighter.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
5,961
Reaction score
342
sienar said:
carsinamerica said:
From Hitchcock (Messerschmitt O-Nine Gallery), p. 101:

"The RLM advised Messerschmitt to expedite development of a high altitude fighter by incorporating Me 209H systems directly into the Bf 109H program (see p. 92). Messerschmitt complied, but continued construction of the Me 209H V1, albeit on a low priority basis. Accordingly, early in 1943 a design was advanced based on the Me P.1091a resulting in the Me 209H. Although it was not fitted to the Me 209H V1, the DB 627B [I think this should be DB628 based on other references Hitchcock makes] was selected. Delays protracted its completion until June 1944, and by this time the Me 209 and the DB 627 programs had been cancelled. Therefore, the Me 209H V1 was completed with a DB 603G (similar to the DB 627 but lacking after-cooler and two-stage mechanical supercharger)."

So, there was the Me 209 V1 through V4 (the record-breaker), with the V4 being the proposed fighter.
Then followed the Me 309
Then the revised Me 209, usually called the Me 209-II.
Then the RLM wanted a high-altitude variant of the 209-II. It sounds, though, that the 209H was really a continuation of the stretched Bf 109 program (P.1091a), and only used some systems architecture from the 209A.

The picture posted at the start of this thread is of the Me 209V14, or at least that it what it is labl[/size]ed in this document.

According to an issue of Le Fana de L'Aviation this variant was proposed to the RLM in November of 1939. If you look at the drawing you can see many differences from the earlier 209s, as well as simularites to the later 309 and 209 developments.
[size=small]
Source of this pic is Me-209 by David Myhra
Indeed.
 

sienar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
579
Reaction score
93
Vladimir said:
Hi, me 209 concept
From myhras 209 book, right?

Likely late wind tunnel model of that design from this thread; http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9028.msg236807.html
 

Attachments

sienar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
579
Reaction score
93
blackkite said:
The glory of Me209V1 record breaker had bad influence for a design of successor of BF109 fighter.
Yes, messerschmitts desire to minimize fuselage wetter area lead to short moment arms, which he coupled with small control surfaces that only worked effectively at higher speed.

There is a good break down of the envisioned development of the 309 at time of cancellation in one of my books. But I cant seem to find it right now.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
5,961
Reaction score
342
Oh ski?? :eek: We can see the radiator under the wing.
 

sienar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
579
Reaction score
93
blackkite said:
Oh ski?? :eek: We can see the radiator under the wing.
Likely just repurposing.

Wind tunnel models were expensive. Probably used for testing 109 skis.
 

Wurger

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
865
Reaction score
11
Dan, are you considering a third volume on the "Luftwaffe..." series?
 

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,349
Reaction score
205
Dan,
Do you think the Germans might have been thinking about either transferring the development programme or the production programme to French industry before the Me 209 was cancelled?
 

newsdeskdan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
805
Reaction score
135
Wurger said:
Dan, are you considering a third volume on the "Luftwaffe..." series?
Worth considering but not sure what it would cover.
 

newsdeskdan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
805
Reaction score
135
Hood said:
Dan,
Do you think the Germans might have been thinking about either transferring the development programme or the production programme to French industry before the Me 209 was cancelled?
Messerschmitt had a chronic shortage of capacity in both design and production at that point so it's possible. Only that drawing has French notes on - all the others in the same set are unanotated German. More research needed.
 

newsdeskdan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
805
Reaction score
135
Doesn't look like much, but this page explains the Me 409. Essentially, the Me 409 was the Me 155 in its earliest form (maybe a bigger Me 309, maybe a development of the Bf 109ST, maybe a bit of both). The Me 409 with DB 628 was the Me 155 B, which became the BV 155. The Me 409 with Jumo 213 presumably became the Me 155 A and the Me 409 with DB 605 became the Me 155 C or possibly vice versa. Quite why '409' became '155' is not explained - maybe the number '409' was just too high and out of sequence for mid-1942.
All that twin fuselage stuff is just... wrong.
 

Attachments

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,349
Reaction score
205
Another interesting piece of myth busting, not that 110% of the Luft 46 fanboy community will ever take the slightest bit of notice!

Does this mean that the often retold tale that the Me 155 was originally a carrier-based fighter before becoming a high-altitude fighter is also a misrepresentation?
 

newsdeskdan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
805
Reaction score
135
Hood said:
Another interesting piece of myth busting, not that 110% of the Luft 46 fanboy community will ever take the slightest bit of notice!

Does this mean that the often retold tale that the Me 155 was originally a carrier-based fighter before becoming a high-altitude fighter is also a misrepresentation?
Seemingly the best account is given in Thomas H Hitchcock's Monogram Close-Up 20 Blohm & Voss 155 book(let). He begins with the May 20, 1942, meeting where Messerschmitt and Focke-Wulf pitched designs for a Spezial Höhenjäger. At this point the RLM unexpectedly pipes up with a request for a Spezial-Träger Jagdeinsitzer. The Messerschmitt guys then pluck a design out of their back pocket for something they've been working on since May 1 called the Bf 109 ST (Spezial-Trägerflugzeug). This is then "advanced in three variants", the A, B and C, powered by the DB 605, DB 628 and Jumo 213 respectively. Now the Bf 109 ST gets redesignated the Me 155.
This is all nice and neat and seemingly accurate but doesn't address the Me 409 thing at all.
 

sienar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
579
Reaction score
93
Do you know how accurate the 3-views that have been published are of the 155?

I ask because if they are accurate then the wing planform of the 155 shows a lot of similarities to the first 209. Wing spar about dead center of the chord, about the same wing sweep and taper ratio. I wonder if the 155 started off as a reworking of the 209s wing for fitting on the 109 fuselage.
 

Attachments

newsdeskdan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
805
Reaction score
135
newsdeskdan said:
Hood said:
Another interesting piece of myth busting, not that 110% of the Luft 46 fanboy community will ever take the slightest bit of notice!

Does this mean that the often retold tale that the Me 155 was originally a carrier-based fighter before becoming a high-altitude fighter is also a misrepresentation?
Seemingly the best account is given in Thomas H Hitchcock's Monogram Close-Up 20 Blohm & Voss 155 book(let). He begins with the May 20, 1942, meeting where Messerschmitt and Focke-Wulf pitched designs for a Spezial Höhenjäger. At this point the RLM unexpectedly pipes up with a request for a Spezial-Träger Jagdeinsitzer. The Messerschmitt guys then pluck a design out of their back pocket for something they've been working on since May 1 called the Bf 109 ST (Spezial-Trägerflugzeug). This is then "advanced in three variants", the A, B and C, powered by the DB 605, DB 628 and Jumo 213 respectively. Now the Bf 109 ST gets redesignated the Me 155.
This is all nice and neat and seemingly accurate but doesn't address the Me 409 thing at all.
I've discovered why Hitchcock's piece on the Me 155 is so accurate - it's lifted almost word for word from Messerschmitt report III/165/43 of August 8, 1943, (Me 109 H: Lebenslauf). This takes the form of a three-page historical summary of how the Me 109 H came about.
The Me 155 (an Me 109 G with longer wings and strengthened fuselage) began as a carrier aircraft on May 20, 1942, with the project being expanded to encompass a high-altitude fighter on June 11, 1942. Then the Me 155 was stopped in January 1943 after the French didn't get very far with it. Then Messerschmitt pitched the Me 209 H as a replacement but on approaching the RLM was issued with a new spec instead, which the 209 H didn't meet. This new spec resulted in the P 1091, which was stopped in early July 1943 when it was determined that it wouldn't be ready before the end of 1944.
This is where Hitchcock stops, because the P 1091 was then presented to B&V as the 'Me 155' for further development and the story goes off at a tangent.
But if you continue on with Messerschmitt report III/165/43, it says that Hitler then verbally instructed Willy Messerschmitt to build a Jagdbomber capable of flying 1000km at an altitude that Allied fighters would be unable to reach. Given the concurrent requirement for early availability, Messerschmitt (the company) assessed the engine options available - DB 628, DB 605+TK 11, BMW 801 J or DB 605 + O2-Anlage and decided that the latter was best. Both the DVL and Daimler-Benz were consulted and told them that the DB 605 + O2-Anlage wouldn't pose any problems. So on August 3, 1943, Willy Messerschmitt, Voigt, Wolf and Hugelschaffer sat down with Fl.Stabsing Schwarz from the RLM and came up with drawing Nr. III/482 for a 'Hohenjagdbomber' which was almost immediately designated the Me 109 H. It was determined that this could be built from scratch in eight weeks. But between August 3 and the date of III/165/43, August 8, the report notes that Prof Messerschmitt had made so many 'improvements' to the design that the eight week timescale would now need to be revised.
So Hitchcock wouldn't have known about the Me 409, because that's from a different report...
 

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,349
Reaction score
205
Another nice piece of detective work, many thanks for sharing this.
 

sienar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
579
Reaction score
93
From some expired ebay auctions. Hope the data get published in full someday.
 

Attachments

newsdeskdan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
805
Reaction score
135
sienar said:
From some expired ebay auctions. Hope the data get published in full someday.
Remarkable that of the six images shown in your first post, the last one is by far the most interesting - yet almost no one has tried to view it.
 

Wurger

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
865
Reaction score
11
I see what you mean. The Me108 with a double Hirth engine is the most surprising to me. Unfortunatelly the text is trunked as well as incomplete.
 

Nick Sumner

Yabba dabba DOOOOOM!
Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
443
Reaction score
20
Wurger said:
I see what you mean. The Me108 with a double Hirth engine is the most surprising to me. Unfortunatelly the text is trunked as well as incomplete.
Me 108 with a double Hirth engine?

Wait, What?
 

richard B

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
87
Reaction score
9
Do I read right in the last of the six images shown in your first post : "Me 327 , früher 263" ?
 

newsdeskdan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
805
Reaction score
135
richard B said:
Do I read right in the last of the six images shown in your first post : "Me 327 , früher 263" ?
Looks like the P 01-114, which became the original Me 263, was then redesignated Me 327.
 

sgeorges4

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
483
Reaction score
44
anything regarding a zwilling variant of the V5 one?

http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/2-Airplanes/Axis/1-Germany/01-Fighters/Me-Bf109/Me-409.htm
 

sgeorges4

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
483
Reaction score
44
Also,is this one historicaly accurate with original document or not?
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/messerschmitt-me-209-h-or-is-it-the-bf-109-v-55-t493959.html
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,109
Reaction score
1,004
sgeorges4 said:
anything regarding a zwilling variant of the V5 one?

http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/2-Airplanes/Axis/1-Germany/01-Fighters/Me-Bf109/Me-409.htm
it's real or what ?.
 

sgeorges4

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
483
Reaction score
44
Is this doppel 209 is real or not?
 

newsdeskdan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
805
Reaction score
135
sgeorges4 said:
Is this doppel 209 is real or not?
I've never seen any evidence for it. I can't rule out its existence completely, but when the Do 335 had already defeated the Me 109 Zw and the Me 309 Zw had been dropped, why bother working on a Me 209 Zwilling?
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,109
Reaction score
1,004
From; Messerschmitt "0-Nine" Gallery".
 

Attachments

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
24,109
Reaction score
1,004
From; Messerschmitt "0-Nine" Gallery"
 

Attachments

sgeorges4

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
483
Reaction score
44
any original drawing or document regarding the me 209 H?
 
Top