Messerschmitt Me 262 HG Variants

Demon Lord Razgriz

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I've seen this Me-262 variant in CGI and always thought it was one of those wacky fakes based on real planes. But then I found a comment on this site stating it was real, the thread was old and it would have been an off topic post, so I started this thread.

Anywho, can someone please explain to me it's history and if possible, share pics. One I'd really like to see is a lineart image of it, as the closest I've seen is the attached image, and it's not a good pic to go off of.
 

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Avimimus

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It looks to be an HG-III with the cockpit glazed into the tail. I've seen this variant referred to as HG-III/3. It is plausible given the existence of a few other Messerschmidt designs with a similarly placed cockpit (namely some P.1106 variants). Perhaps it is based on a wind tunnel model and has had a designation invented post war?
 

Colonial-Marine

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I have seen several variants of the Me-262, mostly with some minor changes like a V tail and so forth, but never such a radical modification. At what site did you find this?

My first impression is that the pilots visibility when landing would be pretty horrible, probably wouldn't be well suited to green German pilots rushed into action.
 

robunos

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There's some info and a drawing in Justo's 'Reichdreams 18', available here :-

http://up-ship.com/drawndoc/rd/rd.htm

cheers,
Robin.
 

XP67_Moonbat

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It's high time this plane received some discussion. A buddy of mine, BV-141, swears up and down that the HG III actually flew. I call B.S. If anyone can help prove me right or wrong, I'd be most thankful.
 

AeroFranz

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XP67_Moonbat said:
It's high time this plane received some discussion. A buddy of mine, BV-141, swears up and down that the HG III actually flew. I call B.S. If anyone can help prove me right or wrong, I'd be most thankful.

Never heard of this version ever being built, much less fly. I think the burden of proof rests on your friend, in this case an inflight picture would do.
Do you know what were the engines? Chances are they weren't even ready!
BTW, given the amount of sweep involved, it would take quite a long airstrip to get this thing in the air.
 

Demon Lord Razgriz

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AeroFranz said:
BTW, given the amount of sweep involved, it would take quite a long airstrip to get this thing in the air.

From the looks of it, the sweep seems close to that of the MiG-15/F-86. And IIRC, they didn't need a very long airstrip. Though better engines would play a part in that.
 

sagallacci

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Construction of the more conventional version of the HGIII (cockpit in the normal place) was started but didn't go very far before the end of the war, the HGII was well on it's way, construction-wise, but was destroyed on the ground before it was flyable, and while the semi-HGI was flown, it had so many aerodynamic problems that it was re-conveted back into a more conventional configuration. There was grave doubts about how flyable the HGII and HGIII would have been, considering the problems with the HGI. Lack of flight cleared HeS011 engines didn't help either.
The aft cockpit design was likely just a toss off notion, another paper project.
 

Lauge

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sagallacci said:
Construction of the more conventional version of the HGIII (cockpit in the normal place) was started but didn't go very far before the end of the war, the HGII was well on it's way, construction-wise, but was destroyed on the ground before it was flyable, and while the semi-HGI was flown, it had so many aerodynamic problems that it was re-conveted back into a more conventional configuration. There was grave doubts about how flyable the HGII and HGIII would have been, considering the problems with the HGI. Lack of flight cleared HeS011 engines didn't help either.
The aft cockpit design was likely just a toss off notion, another paper project.

Source ?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg
 

Basil

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Wings, wing roots, engine installation and most of the fuselage (two-thirds of the forward part) are identical to a planned later version of the Me-262 (a top speed of over 1.000 km/h was calculated with Heinkel He S 11 engines). Although a similar cockpit arrangement was chosen for some german fighter projects (Horten Ho-XIII, Lippisch P.13, Messerschmitt P. 1106) there are no original documents existent which confirm such a Me-262 project. The similar P.1106 project was terminated by Messerschmitt largely because of aerodynamical problems. Nevertheless this configuration could have contributed to an area ruling of the layout (area ruling was patented by Junkers in 1944 and rediscovered independently by Whitcomb in 1952).
 

sagallacci

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Sorry, my previous bits on the HGI,II,III were from Vol. 4 of the massive Smith and Creek set on the Me262.
 

richard

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From the excellent W. Radinger & W.Schick " Me 262 "

original 3-views of the Me 262 HG II with V-tail
 

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borovik

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drawing by M.Rys
 

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airrocket

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Awesome...thanks now my plan is to explore modification of a standard ME 262 fiberglass RC jet kit into the HG version with twin EDF motors. To me the HG V-tail really sets this early jet design off now to find out if flies as well as it looks? Also considering the rocket version and looking into a Pulse jet version "W" version. Not sure if the pulse jet version was something the German designers dreamed up or if its just a modern day urban legend?
 

sagallacci

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I suspect the Argus-powered '262 option lasted just long enough to vigorously reject it. Especially after all the trouble with the Me328 with the pulse-jets, not to mention how slow (relatively speaking), ceiling limited, and fuel hungry the units were.
The Smith and Creek books say that the HG phase one tests were very not promising and though there was work done on phase two and three, it sounds like it was just as well that they were never finished/flown. The phase two wings (and maybe the tail) on the never-finished '262B2 could have had a chance, however. The V-tailed versions looked neat, but considering how much trouble the more conventional tail was still having, I have some doubts about anything more than limited tests with that alternative.
 

hesham

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Hi,

the Me-262 HG series.
 

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sagallacci

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According to the Smith and Creek volumes, none of the proper HG machine configurations were really flown. Elements of the HGI were attempted to poor results and while work was done on attempts to get some HGII elements (and possibly HGIII, if I recall ?) flight worthy, design and production bottlenecks and Allied air attacks got in the way.

While some initial work on adapting pulse jets to manned aircraft was done, the units simply don't work all that well for anything other than a V-1 style short range, one shot (not much over 30 minute running time), low altitude (under 10.000ft), modestly fast (only about 400MPH), crazy fuel hungry application. The Me328 and related work pretty much demonstrated the uselessness of the application. While some paper '262 designs with either four or six jets fitted may have been noodled on, no one was going to waste their time on actually committing them to hardware.
 

Taranov

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::)
 

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Taranov

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HG.III drawings, source: Me-262 p.2. AJ-Press, 1997
P.S. in same source located drawings of HG.II
 

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Jemiba

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I don't know of another designation for those "Hochgeschwindigkeits" variants. But honestly, about the shown "HG IV",
with the cockpit moved into the fin. I've never seen anything near of a "reliable source" about this design, the nearest
maybe is this one http://projekt46.wordpress.com/, clearly stated as "speculative".
 

Justo Miranda

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Hi :)
 

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Jemiba

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In the case of the P.1106 there may be reasons for such a layout with its underslung engine.
but it's a totally different aircraft. For the drawing with the top and side view, I agree with the
caption: It does not make sense !
 

Basil

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The P.1106 was terminated because of the parallel P.1101, P.1110 and P.1111 which finally led to the P.1112. There was no Me-262 project with a rear placed cockpit à la P.1106. These drawings which pop up regularly are fakes.
 

Stargazer2006

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A nice set of top views for the HG I, HG II, HG III and Lorin derivatives of the Me 262:
 

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Stargazer2006

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Jemiba said:
As there were many duplications, I've merged the "Me 262 HG III" and the "German ME 262 HG 3View Search" thread and added
the relevant posts from "Me-262 unknown variants", as the high speed variants seem to be of special interest.

Thanks a lot Jens! That was indeed the sensible thing to do.
 

Jemiba

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In „Me 262“ by Willy Radinger and Walter Schick a drawing shows the steps to the "HG" variant,
more wing sweep, swept tail surfaces and lower canopy. Interesting, as I don't think, I've seen it before,
is the installation of the engines below the fuselage, as shown in the frontal view.
 

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thunaer

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Alle Achtung, nice work :)

I've been in love with this gorgeous configuration for some time and came upon this thread in search for the correct designations. Thank you very much. I just wish Corgi or some other manufacturer would do a prepainted 1:72 scale version worthy of this orchid. Anyway, here's my own webfind plus a cleansed version of one picture posted above, which I created for my desktop.

The original source of the initial picture is here, sadly in no higher resolution than on luft46.com:
http://www.oxygino.com/site/?p=894
It would be magnificent if someone could provide larger versions.

Regards from the land of beer and schnitzel
Thunaer
 

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borovik

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Jemiba said:
Interesting, as I don't think, I've seen it before,
is the installation of the engines below the fuselage, as shown in the frontal view.
Several of stored files (alas, the source is not known) in the context of the previous image.
Before your links Jens, I assumed that it is 100% WHAT IF
 

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hesham

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Wow,amazing my dear Borovik,


thank you for sharing.
 

Jemiba

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borovik said:
Before your links Jens, I assumed that it is 100% WHAT IF

At least the probability, that actually it was an examined configuration has risen, i think !
Let's just find some dociments or maybe wind tunnel photos from the DFS and we can
regard the existence of this variant as assured. ;D

@ thunaer:

Welcome here ! Great renderings !
You've portrayed a Bf 109F, I think ("yellow 4", file oxygino_im__0063_me-109.jpg).
What kind of weapon is it carrying ?
 

thunaer

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@Jemiba:

It's the hypothetical german uranium bomb, design according to Igor Shestakov. Shrouded in mystery and modern myth, though undoubtedly one step closer to reality than those whacky flying saucer Haunebus. I've only encountered the weapon in the form of "Luftwaffe 1946" speculation. You know, eyewitness reports of unexplained flashes in the german skies of 1945 and the like.

This is supposed to show different stages of german of nuclear bomb research, from a simple uranium device to a hydrogen one:
http://www.luft46models.com/manufacturers/ram/rabombs.php

And here is where gifted Mr. Marcomini got his inspiration, I believe:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/692/fantasyisland0001.jpg/

The text places the lower plane in my home town Münster. In reality, allied bombers leveled the city, specifically using the cathedral as aiming point. And that is a fact. So if you ask me, we didn't have the thing and got no further than this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_energy_project

Well, although I find the speculations intriguing, I can happily leave that particular engineering triumph to the americans. Messerschmitts and Hortens are beautiful enough already.

Thunaer
 

hesham

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richard said:
From the excellent W. Radinger & W.Schick " Me 262 "


Also from the same book,a three seat night fighter project,but the source didn't
explain if it was from HG or not.
 

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Jemiba

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This project would have been based on the HG.III. Principally, the HG-variants were just
research vehicles for high-speed flight, in peace times they probably would been used for
speed record attempts. The results would have been used, of course, for the development
of service aircraft, but this nightfighter isn't a "HG Variante".
 

hesham

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Hi,


was that a real Messerschmitt Me.262 HG variants ?.


http://forum.warthunder.ru/index.php?/topic/35685-me-262-hg3/page-84
 

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