Italy supersonic jet fighter projects

wyvernhawk

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A long time ago,I looked a picture of fighter, name is sagittario III, realy?
 

Skybolt

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Italy actually built two supersonic jets, both experimental: the Sagittario II (Mach 1) and the Ariete (Mach 1.2). Both were from Aerfer firm and both were designed by Sergio Stefanutti. Stefanutti designed two more airplanes, in this case meant to be operational (point interceptors). They were the "Leone" (Lion), to follow the zodiacal constellation naming convention, of wich I attach a couple of pictures (first is a transparency, second is of the mock-up during building); and the XS-1, also known as Sagittario III. The would have had a Bristol Siddeley Orpheus B. Or. 12 of 3089 kg of power with afterburner. A second version would have had a De Havilland Gyron Junior, of 3180 Kg. The plane had an auxiliary rocket engine De Havilland Spectre powered by kerosene e and hydrogen peroxide. Total installed power was 4540 Kg; max horizontal speed (calculated) was Mach 2, time to go to 21000 m was 4 min and 55 sec, maximum ceiling was 25000 m. Armament was two De Havilland Firestreak. The prototype was 80 completed when project was cancelled in 1958. The intended funds were diverted to finance the license production of the Hawk AA missile (Italy too h d a "White Book" of some sort... :(
Stefanutti designed a VTOL version of th Leone, with a Bristol Siddeley Orheus with orientable nozzle ad a Napier ramjet of 7250 Kg of power.
Second supersonic plane designed by Stefanutti was the XS.1, from 1959. It had two RR RB 145 R of 1700 kg each plus a Napier Scorpion ramjet of 3165 kg. This too was an interceptor.
 

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Archibald

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Ben dis donc... You learn something everyday on this forum!

I had doubts about supersonic Italian jets (considering how good and active the Italian aircraft industry was and still is, see the M-346)... Now they are confirmed! There was better aircrafts than the fiat G.91 on the drawing board :)
 

Skybolt

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The Sagittario II was actually tendered to the NATO contest.. and disqualified for being "late"... Stefanutti tryed to protest but was said to stay quiet: the Italian contender had to be the FIAT design. Earlier, Macchi was pressured (with a "suasion" directly applied to the designer, the great Bazzocchi) not to tender the MB-324, of which I attach a rarely seen 3-view of the two place version. So, had the Italian government not decided to favour FIAT, we could have had just another Italian winner ... ;D Ok, ok, I'm joking... almost ;)
 

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Archibald

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Never talk to this NATO contest to a Frenchman!
It would tell you that the TAON (Breguet) and Etendards (II IV VI) were better than this crap F-86-copy named Fiat G.91... ::) but well, this contest was political... ;D
How many constructors had tlay in the field of jet aircrafts ??? Fiat, Aermacchi, Aerfer... more ?
 

Jemiba

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"..but well, this contest was political... "

Just tell me ONE such contest, that isn't political ??? ;D
 

Skybolt

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How many constructors had tlay in the field of jet aircrafts Huh Fiat, Aermacchi, Aerfer... more ?
You mean in 1955? By then had actualy flown jet arplanes FIAT (the G-80 series), Aerfer and Caproni-Trento (the Frati's F.5). The MB-324 was just a project, like the SIAI-Marchetti SM-10X of 1950 (and the SM-110 Chimera II of 1950, a four-jet liner...). The first Macchi's jet-airplane to fly, the first version of the MB-326 with side-by-side seats, flew in 1957.
 

boxkite

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(and the SM-110 Chimera II of 1950, a four-jet liner...).

Btw, an interesting concept regarding the position of the engines (see picture from a unknown West German aviation magazine from the 1950s).

Skybolt, do you have an artwork of better quality (or even another one)? My scan is from a Xerox copy :( ...
 

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Archibald

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Skybolt said:
How many constructors had tlay in the field of jet aircrafts Huh Fiat, Aermacchi, Aerfer... more ?
You mean in 1955? By then had actualy flown jet arplanes FIAT (the G-80 series), Aerfer and Caproni-Trento (the Frati's F.5). The MB-324 was just a project, like the SIAI-Marchetti SM-10X of 1950 (and the SM-110 Chimera II of 1950, a four-jet liner...). The first Macchi's jet-airplane to fly, the first version of the MB-326 with side-by-side seats, flew in 1957.

In the 50's in general... did SIAI marchetti flew a jet aircraft in the end ?
hmm Jemiba you're right :p :D
 

Skybolt

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In the 50's in general... did SIAI marchetti flew a jet aircraft in the end ?
Not in the '50s. First jet airplane flown by SIAI was... a Caproni, C-22J, then the S-211, in the '80s.
Skybolt, do you have an artwork of better quality (or even another one)? My scan is from a Xerox copy Sad ...

I have a 3-view 8)
 

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boxkite

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Thanks a lot for the quick response, Skybolt :).
 

elmayerle

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Skybolt said:
How many constructors had tlay in the field of jet aircrafts Huh Fiat, Aermacchi, Aerfer... more ?
You mean in 1955? By then had actualy flown jet arplanes FIAT (the G-80 series), Aerfer and Caproni-Trento (the Frati's F.5). The MB-324 was just a project, like the SIAI-Marchetti SM-10X of 1950 (and the SM-110 Chimera II of 1950, a four-jet liner...). The first Macchi's jet-airplane to fly, the first version of the MB-326 with side-by-side seats, flew in 1957.

Hmm? All the photos I've ever seen of the MB-326 prototype show it as having tandem seating and without the tip tanks.
 

Skybolt

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Elm, you're right... They built a small mock-up of the first design but they tendered and flew the second... Talking of going to bed earlier and don't trust memory..... :-[
 

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elmayerle

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Somewhat like the MB-326C was mocked up but never built. A same, that was an attractive aircraft.
 

wyvernhawk

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Hi this a sagittario II picture ,Iget it from internet.
 

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RAP

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Two more drawings
 

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archipeppe

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A little what-if, how would appear the Aerfer Leone with Italian Air Force markings.
 

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Michel Van

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lovely work, Archipeppe

What fascinate project, the Aerfer Leone a italian Interceptor with rocket engine, oddly only ten year to late.

And Fiat G.91 was a good and popular aircraft in the air forces who used it.
except in France, for some obscure reason they take a French aircraft called "ensign"

by the way
my avatar is picture of me in cockpit of a Fiat G.91
 

archipeppe

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Michel Van said:
lovely work, Archipeppe

What fascinate project, the Aerfer Leone a italian Interceptor with rocket engine, oddly only ten year to late.

And Fiat G.91 was a good and popular aircraft in the air forces who used it.
except in France, for some obscure reason they take a French aircraft called "ensign"

by the way
my avatar is picture of me in cockpit of a Fiat G.91


Many thanks for your appreciation Michel. :)


I agree about Leone it was really too late and could not compete with the F-104G (the "affair" of the century indeed...) anyway it was really the latest indigenous Italian interceptor project ever (the late G-95 family was more strike rather than interceptor aircrafts).


I enjoed your avatar picture remembering that Germans used the Gina far more than Italians themselves....
 

hesham

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Hi,

Here is some Sagittario II Projects :-

- SagittarioII/Attack : it was the same Sagittario II,but powered by one Rolls-Royce Derwent
Mk.8 engine and attack armaments.

- Sagittario II/Trolley : with this project the idea of ​​equipping Sagittarius II of a separate trolley for
take off from grassy slopes was taken up again. This cart was equipped with a 2,600 kg Allison J-35
turbojet. thrust and allowed take-off in 270 m. When the plane broke off, an automatic control
blocked the truck's steering, operated the brakes, intercepted the flow of fuel and lowered the stop
harpoon. This cart could also be operated by a Westinghouse J-34 WE 36 1.545 kg reactor. of push.

- Sagittario II/Interceptor : it was the same Sagittario II,but with increased of wing span,and some
improvements for its new roles.

- Sagittario II/T : was a tandem two-seat jet trainer version.

- Sagittario III : was a later development called Sagittarius III, differed from the previous type to
have a total length of m. 9.60 and for a Bristol Orpheus turbojet of unspecified power.

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/aviostoria/A/AERFER/SAGITTARIO%202-PROGETTI.htm
 

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