India's 5th generation fighter programme - from MCA to AMCA

Geo said:
... and maybe "HAL F-75" in the future.
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This is what I'm thinking. HAL is dead set on the AMCA, but the Tejas Mk 2 and especially the TEDBF are a bit dubious as of right now. I think the Su-75 might be their best bet as a friend for the AMCA in service.
 
No hate posting, please.

Yes, the AMCA has been delayed a lot, and Indians tend to overpromise things. But considering what India is trying to achieve with this project and the obstacles along the way, it would have been rather surprising if there had been no delays whatsoever.

Aviation is difficult, and next-gen warfighting and fighter manufacturing are especially almost gruelingly impossible...
 
Please don't be mad at me, but this has nothing to do with "hate posting", but is simply a more than understandable reaction to years of full-bodied announcements, one delay after another and finally the non-admitting that Tejas is a failure across the board: it is now too small, too less-capable in performance and above all much too late for everything the IAF needs operationally and tactically.

And the fact of trying it now - at a time where its main adversary it progressing even faster - again with Teja's Mk.2 is not really promising, so that one bsrely could have hope that they (at least during my lifetime) will manage to create an even more complex fighter of the 5. generation.

This is reality and has nothing to do with "hate".
 
snne said:
But considering what India is trying to achieve with this project and the obstacles along the way, it would have been rather surprising if there had been no delays whatsoever.
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Yet Turkey and South Korea pulled it off. Much smaller, less ambitious, non-nuclear nations with access to US products.

India has on paper the people, resources, incentive and should have the knowledge to pull this off as well, but they simply can't for whatever reason.
 
India has one of the largest bureaucracies of all modern states. I am out of my depth with this thought but having lived government bureaucracy I can understand how it can inhibit progress. At this point, other than national pride, I would think it smarter to joint South Kora or Turkey with their programs
 
Yes, developing a fighter is not an easy task.
But without all the strong talks, unnecessary mock-ups and CGIs, it doesn't look so embarrassing compared to the KF-21 or the Kaan.
The sooner India agrees to license production of the Su-57 (or/and Su-75 later), the better off it will be.
Even though "Felon is not stealthy enough"...
 
India maybe looking at difficult choices on next generation aircraft and one shouldn't make too many assumptions.
Russia isn't the only option for externally sourced designs.
 
zen said:
India maybe looking at difficult choices on next generation aircraft and one shouldn't make too many assumptions.
Russia isn't the only option for externally sourced designs.
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True, but the F-35 is dubious at best, impossible at worst, the KAAN? Isn't Pakistan looking into cooperating on this one? That leaves the KF-21 as the only non-Russian option and the KF-21 isn't in service yet as well and doesn't even have IWBs.

J-35 is also not likely, for various reasons.

So it's either remaining committed to AMCA completely, but experiencing a capability gap. Committing to AMCA but procuring a foreign design as interim, maybe on lease. Or they ditch AMCA and either commit fully to a foreign design or attach themselves to ongoing 6th generation efforts, i.e GCAP
 
There are many parallels between KF-21 and AMCA, the use of F414s being a glaringly obvious example. DRDO and HAL could perhaps expedite their project greatly if they allowed KAI in areas where there are no tightly held proprietary/national security secrets but which are nonetheless absolutely essential to its success and of which KAI has absolutely current expertise in (and HAL's remaining direct Russia ties are of no great concern). South Korea and India certainly have been pushed towards each other by the prevailing geopolitical trends.

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I am surprised that India has never thought about designing and building their own engine for the AMCA? Or would the process just be to expensive and time consuming to even be bothered about?
 
EmoBirb said:
True, but the F-35 is dubious at best, impossible at worst, the KAAN? Isn't Pakistan looking into cooperating on this one? That leaves the KF-21 as the only non-Russian option and the KF-21 isn't in service yet as well and doesn't even have IWBs.

J-35 is also not likely, for various reasons.

So it's either remaining committed to AMCA completely, but experiencing a capability gap. Committing to AMCA but procuring a foreign design as interim, maybe on lease. Or they ditch AMCA and either commit fully to a foreign design or attach themselves to ongoing 6th generation efforts, i.e GCAP
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For next generation systems, unfortunately there's not as many choices for India.
AMCA - preferable as it is a domestic design and strengthens the local industries. The risk with this the potential time it will take, which India may not be willing to be patient on as its neighbor(s) procure more advance designs.
F-35 or any other US fighters - While I can see India willing to buy American on a number of things, they are likely to be reluctant to buy fighter jets from the US due to the significant political strings attached, and the fact that the F-35 is a mature design that they have little influence over. Not impossible, but not likely either.
GCAP - a reasonable possibility. I don't expect India to have the same level of influence as JP/UK/IT, but they could end up being the equivalent of a "tier 3" partner like in the F-35. The problem is that it will still take time before it enters service. Is India willing to wait? I do think GCAP will likely enter service before AMCA
FCAS - likely a longer wait
KAAN - Turkey is friendly to Pakistan, which could field it
Su-57 - Something they can likely get relatively sooner compared to some of the others on this list. The problem was that they didn't seem very satisfied with the design. But if they need something sooner..
KF-21 - Already entering production. Current version is not a true "5th" gen design, but India could play some role in its development by funding the development of the stealthier version with IWBs, etc. In addition KAI has considered the idea of a carrier version as well, which could work for India (although the South Korea gov't is now leaning towards drone carriers). the Koreans seem to be moving towards an indigenous powerplant, which will reduce the number of US components.
 
I think we are forgetting an important part here. Let's forget about AMCA (although this is an AMCA thread, pardon me) for a second. Bar the AMCA, they are already experiencing a huge capability gap due to their half-arsed approach concerning MMRCA and never-ending delays with Tejas. How many MMRCA were they originally supposed to procure? 126 jets. How many Rafales did they actually get? 36. Now, the rest was supposedly to be covered with Tejas mk.1A instead, but anyone with a single brain cell understands that Tejas and any of the MMRCA candidate fighters were and are in a different league in terms of what they are capable of. If India had any sense of urgency or really felt like the capability gaps are of major national security concern, the fate of MMRCA wouldn't have round up the way we know it.

Now they've been pursuing a follow-up programme in place of FGFA called the MRFA, but where is that programme going? Also nowhere since the issuing of RFI in 2018. RFI for the original MMRCA was first issued in 2001. RFP in 2007. Winner chosen in 2015. That's 14 years between RFI and eventual announcement of the winner for the bid. I'd expect the same story for MRFA, for which 7 years have already passed since the issuing of RFI and that's already far worse than original MRCA. At this pace, it will take even longer for them to get their new MRFA jet. If we ever hear anything about it before the turn of this decade, that would already be a major achievement in Indian standards.

We were supposed to see AMCA fly and get introduced into Indian Air Force by late 2020s. Now they say it's going to be in service by 2036, which is 11 years from now, 1 year later than the much more advanced GCAP, but somehow, even that seems not to be something that could be guaranteed in my eyes. We should remind ourselves that India is still struggling to get Tejas Mk.1A in service on time, not to mention Tejas Mk.2. They were supposed to choose a private sector partner to team-up with HAL which would (according to the Indians) solve the inefficiency issues concerning HAL, but I've never heard about any company actually being chosen ever since. They were suppose to fly a Next Generation Technology Demonstrator, NGTD in short, by early 2020s to better prepare for actual development of the jet, but scrapped that plan because "it will take too long". And it is still taking way too long to develop this jet regardless.

Again, forget about AMCA. Indian Air Force, MoD, DRDO, HAL, CCS, they are all one huge pile of despicable mess. At least Pakistan knows, that even if they have technological upper-hand once they get their J-35, it would be foolish to initiate an all-out war against a far larger India. India knows this, too. They will be severely disadvantaged whenever they are faced off with escalation in the Kashmir region just like earlier this month, but as always, nothing will ever happen. Unfortunate for the Indian aviation and military enthusiasts, but unless they are faced with actual national security threat, AMCA was, is, and will stay an international laughing stock.
 
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FighterJock said:
I am surprised that India has never thought about designing and building their own engine for the AMCA? Or would the process just be to expensive and time consuming to even be bothered about?
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They've been developing this one very Kaveri ever since 1986. Also the reason they are envisioning the AMCA "Mark 2", although it wouldn't be Kaveri itself that would power the AMCA.
 
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UpForce said:
There are many parallels between KF-21 and AMCA, the use of F414s being a glaringly obvious example. DRDO and HAL could perhaps expedite their project greatly if they allowed KAI in areas where there are no tightly held proprietary/national security secrets but which are nonetheless absolutely essential to its success and of which KAI has absolutely current expertise in (and HAL's remaining direct Russia ties are of no great concern). South Korea and India certainly have been pushed towards each other by the prevailing geopolitical trends.
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helmutkohl said:
KF-21 - Already entering production. Current version is not a true "5th" gen design, but India could play some role in its development by funding the development of the stealthier version with IWBs, etc. In addition KAI has considered the idea of a carrier version as well, which could work for India (although the South Korea gov't is now leaning towards drone carriers). the Koreans seem to be moving towards an indigenous powerplant, which will reduce the number of US components.
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DSME, now Hanwha Ocean, used to be part of the P75(i) programme of the IN, and was the most likely candidate due to Indian requirements which required an operational AIP system, which only DSME and TKMS were able to meet, and TKMS' hesitance stemming from other Indian demands. But once Hanwha took over the DSME and merged them into Hanwha group, Hanwha immediately pulled the plug for the programme. Although seemingly a successful programme, to borrow Hanwha personnel's words, "(they) had enough to do anything with the Indians" when they sold the K-9 howitzers to them. Hanwha experienced first hand how it is to do anything with the Indian government from selling the Howitzers and they didn't need to know any more for pulling out of the P75(i).
 
Maro.Kyo said:
DSME, now Hanwha Ocean, used to be part of the P75(i) programme of the IN, and was the most likely candidate due to Indian requirements which required an operational AIP system, which only DSME and TKMS were able to meet, and TKMS' hesitance stemming from other Indian demands. But once Hanwha took over the DSME and merged them into Hanwha group, Hanwha immediately pulled the plug for the programme. Although seemingly a successful programme, to borrow Hanwha personnel's words, "(they) had enough to do anything with the Indians" when they sold the K-9 howitzers to them. Hanwha experienced first hand how it is to do anything with the Indian government from selling the Howitzers and they didn't need to know any more for pulling out of the P75(i).
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can't say I am surprised.
When I worked for a major Japanese organization, my senior colleague who has a lot of experience in working with the Indian gov't and industries said..
"India is one of our most important partners.. but at the same time their bureaucracy is exceptional (not in a good way), so you'll need to learn how to navigate it"
I left before joining those joint India projects, so never got to really experience it.
 
Maro.Kyo said:
DSME, now Hanwha Ocean, used to be part of the P75(i) programme of the IN, and was the most likely candidate due to Indian requirements which required an operational AIP system, which only DSME and TKMS were able to meet, and TKMS' hesitance stemming from other Indian demands. But once Hanwha took over the DSME and merged them into Hanwha group, Hanwha immediately pulled the plug for the programme. Although seemingly a successful programme, to borrow Hanwha personnel's words, "(they) had enough to do anything with the Indians" when they sold the K-9 howitzers to them. Hanwha experienced first hand how it is to do anything with the Indian government from selling the Howitzers and they didn't need to know any more for pulling out of the P75(i).
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Plenty of examples then which don't augur well for co-operation. While "designs have been finalized" claims are not to be taken at face value either perhaps it's in many ways too late in the process for outside consulting to make a difference anyway. As things stand it's beginning to be inconsequential whether the project ever comes to anything in terms of actual capability. Certainly there are design and production methods readily available today which seem to allow for even complex designs to be realized quickly. Don't quite know what will hasten them if these current events and trends don't.
 
FighterJock said:
I am surprised that India has never thought about designing and building their own engine for the AMCA? Or would the process just be to expensive and time consuming to even be bothered about?
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Indigenous engine development is the pinnacle of military aviation technology and only a select few countries at the very top develop their own engines. Most countries rely on engines produced by them, which isn't a shame or anything, but it obviously creates dependency.

I have to admit that I have zero clue about Indian engine efforts, but I wouldn't be surprised if they went with a foreign design for AMCA first, simply as a cost reliability measure. And later on they could develop a domestic engine to fit on AMCA and other indigenous jets.
 
helmutkohl said:
Su-57 - Something they can likely get relatively sooner compared to some of the others on this list. The problem was that they didn't seem very satisfied with the design.
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And that's why in 2025 they're still operating MiG-21s and designing aircraft that the Dassault guys in 1985 wouldn't be ashamed of.
 
EmoBirb said:
I have to admit that I have zero clue about Indian engine efforts, but I wouldn't be surprised if they went with a foreign design for AMCA first, simply as a cost reliability measure. And later on they could develop a domestic engine to fit on AMCA and other indigenous jets.
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Like I've said, they are going to build two different AMCA. Mk.1 will be powered by F414. Quite straight forward, since they have the license production scheme ready for the MWF Tejas. In 2023 there was an announcement that India has obtained necessary permits for the use of F414 on AMCA as well. Those prototypes will definitely be powered by F414s. The Indian variant is designated F414-GE-INS6. Around 10 years ago, when GE was still promoting the F414 EPE and EDE, later F414 EE, to the USN and various other potential users of the F414 engine, India was rumored to have been the primary customer for the new type that would foot the bill for the development for the enhanced version of F414, but this never realized.

As for the Mk.2, they are trying to develop a 110kN reheat thrust class turbofan with a foreign engine maker. Although GE will supply F414 for MWF and AMCA, they seem to be not the primary candidate for cooperation, probably due to stringent US technology transfer restrictions. We all know that India makes wild demands when cooperating with foreign manufacturers for their defence procurements.

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Offering to co-develop and co-design jet engine, allowing India to own the IP: Rolls Royce

Rolls Royce offers unique co-development opportunities for fighter jet engines in India, focusing on IP ownership and local manufacturing.
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So it's either RR or Safran, but I don't think India will be able to get the "100%, unconditional transfer of technology and IP" they are demanding. They are not the ones to bargain.

As for Safran, they were the ones the Indians have cooperated with in the past to fix Kaveri, while Russians were also helping them (and still is,) with fixing the design and testing the prototypes. Although by 2010 Indians have turned down Snecma's offers for deeper cooperation for the development of Kaveri. Talking about Kaveri, they were supposed to develop 11 standards in total, K10 being the final, operational standard, but that was never achieved. K1 till K9 were the 9 initial standards representing each prototype engines, so 9 Kaveri prototypes were completed in total, while K9+ was an intermediate standard that was supposed to a stepping stone to an operational K10. By 2010 they have converted 2 of the completed prototypes into K9+, and by 2024 one more, making it 3. This was much less than what the Indians envisioned. The K9+ never exceeded 80kN of reheat thrust in the last 15 years, let alone achieve the reheat thrust of 85kN that is required for it to power Tejas. If anything, the overarching architecture of the engine itself is too obsolete. Hence they are trying to start from scratch for the engine for AMCA.

The progress of Kaveri is the reason I'm saying the Indians are not in the position to bargain in their negotiations to develop the 110kN engine. Had they at least achieve what they were trying to achieve with Kaveri for the last 39 years, they would have for the bare minimum demonstrated that they are able to develop something that could be operationally fielded. But sadly for them, even K10 have been out of reach. In such case, it's a pretty wishful thinking that the foreign manufacturers will be willing to cooperate on an equal footing or that they will share critical technology. What awaits them is endless "discussions" with the foreign manufacturers, never being able to meet an agreement because they are walking towards cul-de-sac, or they'll need to accept the reality, which will obviously hamper their ambitions of indigenisation.
 
Seems like the PPP originally envisioned for the AMCA has been heavily revised. The original scheme was supposed to be granted to a single prime that would've formed a 50-50 JV with HAL that will overlook the manufacturing process of AMCA. Now... they have 4 private companies instead of 1, akin to what they are already doing with the Tejas Mk.1A.

manufacturing.economictimes.indiatimes.com

HAL invites four private firms for JV in Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft production

Hindustan Aeronautics: The PSU will hold a 50% stake in the joint venture, while the other four private partners will hold a 12.5% stake each.
manufacturing.economictimes.indiatimes.com manufacturing.economictimes.indiatimes.com

HAL will hold a 50% stake in the JV, with each of the four private partners holding 12.5%.
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The expression of interest has a submission deadline of May 7, 2025. Potential candidates include Tata Advanced Systems, Bharat Forge, Larsen 8& Toubro, and VEM Technologies, all of which have previous experience collaborating with HAL or DRDO on projects like the Tejas LCA or artillery systems.
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The ambitious production plan aims to deliver 126 aircraft to the Indian Air Force by 2047.
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This structure ensures HAL's control while distributing manufacturing responsibilities. The JV partners will be responsible for delivering complete "work packages,' covering design, material procurement, manufacturing, and assembly of designated AMCA sections.
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The four work packages encompass all major AMCA assemblies. Work Package-1 involves the front fuselage and landing gear. Work Package-2 covers the centre fuselage, air intake, and ailerons. Work Package-3 includes the rear fuselage, horizontal tail, flaperons, and flaps. Finally, Work Package-4 comprises the wing and vertical tail assembly.
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The tentative production schedule aims for 9 aircraft assemblies annually from 2035-36 to 2038-39. Production will then increase to 10 aircraft per year from 2039-40 to 2046-47, totaling 126 units. These figures are provisional and subject to change based on Indian Air Force requirements, funding, and technological progress.
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Each work package presents significant challenges. For instance, Work Package-1 (front fuselage) involves integrating radar and cockpit systems. Work Package-4 (wing and vertical tail) requires high precision for stealth and aerodynamic performance.
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The turnkey requirement-covering everything from raw materials to final assembly-underscores HAL's intent to offload substantial responsibility to its partners, while retaining overall
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GTX said:
Care to elaborate?
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I seriously doubt the US would hand the F-35 to India. They didn't even hand them to Turkey or agreed to give them to Taiwan. And India is possibly as much infiltrated by Israeli, Pakistani, Chinese and Russian intelligence as Taiwan is by (mainland) Chinese intelligence.

They're also a more dubious ally at best with goals and interests that don't always align with the US, at least beyond both being wary of China. I don't think that's justification enough to give the most advanced aircraft in US service (until the B-21 enters service) to a somewhat-aligned country that operates Russian SAM systems and might just be reckless enough to fly said F-35s straight into Pakistani territory in a future escalation. Which would open the door for shoot downs and the aircraft being handed to China and Russia.

And no, that's not the same as Israel flying their F-35s over Lebanon or what not. It would also just be another rejection to Turkey which was screwed over for operating the same SAM system of Russian origin. A very insulting signal to a fundamentally geographical useful NATO member.
 
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US administration has offered f35 to India on a few occasions. So it's the only real option for India, if they want a stealthy plane quickly. Due to life cycle price tag , I don't think many would be bought. Something like 36 seem plausible. All this might have seemed unlikely before, but after that May affair with Pakistan, I would think quick f35 buy has become very likely.
 
totoro said:
US administration has offered f35 to India on a few occasions. So it's the only real option for India, if they want a stealthy plane quickly. Due to life cycle price tag , I don't think many would be bought. Something like 36 seem plausible. All this might have seemed unlikely before, but after that May affair with Pakistan, I would think quick f35 buy has become very likely.
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We do not know under what conditions the F-35s were offered to India.
But given the Turkish case, these are certainly not the conditions that would make a "quick F-35 buy very likely". Quite the contrary.
 
totoro said:
All this might have seemed unlikely before, but after that May affair with Pakistan, I would think quick f35 buy has become very likely.
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If we talk about the Kashmir Conflict, I'd say it makes any potential sale highly unlikely.

And what the US administration says and actually does are two vastly different things.
 
IMHO accelerating AMCA process would be the only option.
then HOW would be the question - maybe finding foreign - western - partner?
 
AnonSB said:
IMHO accelerating AMCA process would be the only option.
then HOW would be the question - maybe finding foreign - western - partner?
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They should just upgrade their Su30's, buy another 100 Rafale. Then they are set for the next 15-20 years and can fiddle around with tejas and AMCA without stress.
 
Like always, they only have themselves to blame. Yes, they should have carried on the Su-30 upgrade without kowtowing to US pressure to not include Russia. I've never found any clear info what (AESA?) radar Russia offered, but even a sort-of interim upgrade similar to SM2, upgraded Bars radar, R-37 missiles plus whatever indigenous weapons and other systems they wanted, Al-41F1 engines etc. would have been a welcome boost until the indian AESA and other systems/weapons were ready.

Yes, the MRCA was a mess, should have gone with the 126 Rafales as initially selected. Balakot 2019 clash indeed might have been different (as they claimed before Sindoor) if they had large numbers of Rafales back then.

Tejas is another never ending fiasco, should have been inducted in service a decade before it was eventually, without putting unrealistically high capability demands on it, based around existing indigenous or foreign tech such as radars and missiles, would have been good enough until the evolved versions and indigenous AESA radars were ready.

Finally the 114 MRFA program should have been for LO fighters, ie Su-57 as it is the only available option in the heavy category. The indian complaints about supposed LO or engine deficiences are nonsense, probably propagated by internal/external interests. Even if said criticisms would have been partly justified, Su-57 would still have been a quantum leap for IAF, just as Su-30 was back in the day.

TEDBF is nonsense, waste of time and design resources, all efforts should be focused on AMCA. A carrier based AMCA-N could be created later if they need to.

PS: Also the Jaguar DARIN III was a waste of time and money as well, perhaps only a more limited upgrade was in order until the Jaguars were replaced by the MMRCA Rafales anyway.
 
EmoBirb said:
I seriously doubt the US would hand the F-35 to India. They didn't even hand them to Turkey or agreed to give them to Taiwan. And India is possibly as much infiltrated by Israeli, Pakistani, Chinese and Russian intelligence as Taiwan is by (mainland) Chinese intelligence.
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As mentioned by others there has been increasing talk of India being offered the F-35 so it is possibly on the cards, though I will admit that there are concerns. And to elaborate, only this week when talking to a HAL propulsion lead re the Tejas BD THE F404-GE-IN20, it was noted that the person was a Russian...hmmm.

Re Turkey, they were a Level 3 Partner in the development and would have received until 2018 when the U.S. Senate passed a bill blocking the transfer of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey. 6 aircraft have nominally been produced for them but they are all in the USA.
 
helmutkohl said:
economictimes.indiatimes.com

India’s 5th-gen stealth fighter jet project gets greenlight as AMCA programme enters execution phase

India advances its indigenous defence capabilities. The Defence Ministry approves the AMCA execution model. This paves the way for India's first fifth-generation stealth fighter. The DRDO commits to delivering AMCA by 2035. India also tests a directed energy weapon, neutralising drones. These...
economictimes.indiatimes.com economictimes.indiatimes.com
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“This journey began only in 2024, when the Cabinet Committee on Security sanctioned the project,” DRDO Chairman Samir V Kamat had previously said. “It will take ten years, and we have committed to delivering the platform by 2035.”
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What they did between 2011 and 2024? I remember programme starting in 2011 hell, this topic itself is dated back then.
“We learnt a lot from the Kaveri engine, but that was fourth-gen. Now we’re aiming for sixth-gen engine tech,” said Kamat.
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That's hilarious. They couln't make a 4-gen engine with the help of Russia and France, and now they're going to develop 6-gen engine?
 
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