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HF-24 Marut derivatives & projects

Archibald

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Hmmm just browsed a bit about the HF-24 Marut. Lovely aircraft, designed for mach 2 but only make mach 1.1 because of a lack of an andequate engine.
Was there derivatives of this aircraft in the drawing board ?? Something to compete with the Su-7 or the Jaguar (or better?)

???
 

hesham

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Dear Archiblad,

there were two derivative from it the HF-25 and HF-73.
 

Archibald

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Cool! God bless hesham now I need to know in which they were improved (performances ? engines? differents missions ?)
 

Archibald

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Is Deino here ? I found the thread you made in Key Publishing... It seems we have quite the same interests (less-known fighters projects, and links between aircrafts such as Mirage 4000 to Rafale...)
 

hesham

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excuse me Archiblad,

I was busy all night,but I have a little information may be useful to you.


HF-24 MKII: Mach 2 version,no more detail.
HF-25 :single engined version as strike fighter.
HF-73 :two seat Mach 2 (MKII ),powered by two RB.199 turbojet engines,
with two dimensional intakes and having slightly swept wings and
twin fins rudders.
 

Archibald

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Thank you! I fiannally found an old thread in Key Publishing with details similar to yours. i give you the link...
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-24656.html
 

hesham

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Hi Archiblad,

in the site you mention it there are a lot of projects to HAL,such as
HT-10,HT-11,HJT-17,HTT-35,HCP-25 and HAC-33,
anther HAL project the LAS; a single piston-engined high wing 8/10
seat transport aircraft,not built.
 

elmayerle

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HF-24 Mk. II was depicted, just a little, in an old article I saw; perhaps this will help others looking for it. It was similar to the Mk. I but had variable inlets and a radar fitted. The inlets had the "usual" translating cone centerbodies. I keep wanting to think it was an old, old issue of the German magazine "Jet & Prop" but I can't say for sure.

The one three-view drawing I remember seing of the HF-73 (again, from a magazine) showed two RB.199s but with the wings and tail surfaces basically carried over from the basic HF-24.
 

Justo Miranda

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Marut

I do not have much on the Hindustan HF-24....does anyone have something better?
From
-SAFO nº53,January 1990
-Letectvi & Kosmonautika unknown issue
-Fighters in service ,Blanford Press , by Kenneth Munson
 

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elmayerle

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Re: Marut

Does anyone know if the Marut bailed to Egypt to test the E300 engine for the HA-300, and considered for replacing the Orpheus engines in the Marut flew with Indian or Eqyptian markings?

I've got some good data, unfortunately it's not with me in Connecticut but is back in Texas. It's photocpied out of a German magazine from over a deacde ago looking at the basic Marut and at some of the proposed derivatives of it.
 

Retrofit

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Re: Marut

Just for info: Some photos of the HF-24 exposed by the Flugwerft Schleissheim Museum, near Munich.
 

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Wim

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Re: Marut

Take a look here: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Vintage/Fighters/Marut/
Sorry for my poor english
Wim
 

Deino

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Re: Marut

Very interesting ... THANKs a lot for posting !

Does anyone have mare data on the much improved proposals like the single engined ones powered by the R-29 or the French powerplants ??? ... I know the feature in an older Air International but I've never seen diagrams or profiles of how it might looked like ... bevore evolving into the HF-73.

Deino
 

elmayerle

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Re: Marut

I know various German magazines had articles on the Marut some years back (late-80s, early-90s if memory serves me) that had some good drawings of advanced versions.
 

Hood

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It seems several efforts were made to exploit Mach 2 performance in the Marut. William Green in his 1964 edition of 'The World's Fighting Planes' mentions the Mk2. The USSR had offered the RD-9F but apparantly becuase the Soviets were unwilling to develop the type further beyond its M1.4 compressor stress limit talks broke down at the beginning of 1964. Various other engines were then looked at, afterburning Orpheus as used in the 1A, the Brandner E-300, the RR RB.153, the P&W J52 and the GE1/JO-1. By the end of 1964 no decision apparantely had been made.
 

Deino

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Archibald said:
Is Deino here ? I found the thread you made in Key Publishing... It seems we have quite the same interests (less-known fighters projects, and links between aircrafts such as Mirage 4000 to Rafale...)


Yes ... and indeed, we seem to have the same interests ! :-*

I just found that tread ... and besides the Russian efforts to install the RD-9F also the French Atar was under consideration.

Sadyl I don't have any info or especially drawings. Even more on the changes from the orignal Marut, to this SUperSonic Marut and finally the HF-73. :(

Deino
 

Antonio

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From a RAF Flying Review issue from the 60's

Mach 3 Version of the HF-24
Professor Kurt Tank, stated in a recent interview that, in its definitive form, this aircraft will be able to exceed Mach 3 if he can obtain a suitable heat-resistant steel alloy.

Was Prof. Tank a bit optimistic?
 

Petrus

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pometablava said:
From a RAF Flying Review issue from the 60's

Mach 3 Version of the HF-24
Professor Kurt Tank, stated in a recent interview that, in its definitive form, this aircraft will be able to exceed Mach 3 if he can obtain a suitable heat-resistant steel alloy.

Was Prof. Tank a bit optimistic?

Apparently he had some optimism ;) ... but I think he might have talked about a 'definitive form' that could have been a further development of the Marut design, quite another, new aircraft using new engines, materials and technologies.

BTW it would be interesting to know how the Marut was to look like (with BrO.12 reheated engines, radar and AA missiles). If I am not mistaken in sources on the design there is no precise information, not to speak of pictures.

Regards,
Piotr
 

hesham

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Grey Havoc

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Re: Marut

Via the F-6A (F4D) Skyray and F5D Skylancer thread over in whatifmodelers.com:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112661

2. Aircraft Package.

Ambassador Bowles recommended that we offer to the Indians, under our Military Assistance Program something on the order of 70 F6A aircraft for relatively quick delivery and also offer to explore with the Indians the possibility of developing the HF–24. Ambassador Bowles stated that he was sure the Indians would proceed with the HF–24 whether or not we assisted. It was his hope that the foregoing package would be helpful in causing the Indians to reduce or discontinue their proposed MIG production.

3. Conclusions.

Mr. McNamara agreed that we could offer the F6A under our Military Assistance Program to India. He also agreed that we could explore with the Indians the practicality of development of the HF–24, possibly with the Rolls Royce engine. Mr. McNamara also stated that our military assistance for India would have to include substantially more defense production (with the result that we might well have to do the same thing for Pakistan)......



4. Future Action.

------------------

b. Comparison of Aircraft. Mr. McNamara would like to have an analysis prepared which will compare the Chinese aircraft capabilities with the capabilities of the F6A, the F5A, the F–104 A/B, the F–104G, the HF–24 in all versions including estimates on Mark II, and MIG 21. The table should also include similar information for certain aircraft in the Indian air force, namely, the Vampire NF–54, Mystere 4A, Hunter F Mark 56, Gnat F Mark I, Toofani, and Vampire FB–52. On a separate sheet information should be set forth concerning the capabilities of aircraft in the Pakistani air force so that a similar comparison can be made between the threat constituted by the Pakistani air force and the above name aircraft.

c. Development of the HF–24. Arrangements should be made promptly to send U.S. representatives to India to look into the HF–24 development. A thorough investigation should be made as to the fitness of the Rolls Royce engine for the HF–24; the changes which would have to be made in the airframe design to accommodate the Rolls Royce engine; and the changes which would have to be made in the engine manufacturing plant in order to construct the Rolls Royce engine in India. If necessary U.S. representatives should be sent to England to look into the Rolls Royce engine further. If we need to go outside the armed forces and obtain people from industry to review such matters as the aircraft production plant in India, this should be done. The courses of action on this point would appear to be: (i) a cable to the British confirming our interest in this project and our desire to proceed promptly with the above investigation; (ii) the selection of the right people to go to India and possibly the UK and if necessary, Germany to review the availability of the engine with the Germans; (iii) alerting them so that they can carry out their investigation and be back with a report in the U.S. prior to Chavan's arrival in May; and (iv) obtain from Ambassador Bowles, on his return to New Delhi, assurance that the Indians will cooperate with the U.S. representatives and make all necessary information available to them to prepare their report......
 

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Re: Marut

I have come across the Marut in my own recent research.
In CAB 131/27 , Defence Committee Meetings during 1962 the Marut was brought up in connection with India buying the MiG-21. The meeting in question was 6th June 1962.
The Orpheus 12 was considered to cost £3 million to develop and India could not afford the cost and were instead considering a Soviet engine (probably the RD-7 which I've mentioned elsehwere in another Marut thread). Pending the introduction of the Marut the Soviets had offered 24 MiG-21s at £300,000 each. The US President approached Harold Macmillan to make a counter-offer to counter the rising Soviet influence. The Lightining F.Mk.II was considered but the RAF required the next 12 months worth of production to re-equip its own forces in the Middle & Far East to counter newer Soviet fighters in these regions.
Three points were made; first with intra-Commonwealth matters it was imprudent to supply such equipment to India without causing problems with Pakistan given the existing claims by Pakistan that Britain was not impartial and aiding India against it. In view of this it was considered better to allow India to buy MiGs but the interests of the "free world" meant countering Soviet influence in indian defence and industrial policy. A tricky balancing act. Second the balance of payments issue in India prevented them from paying for new aircraft with anything other than blocked Rupees.Third, in the long-term the selection of the Marut engines was seen as more important than the choice of a new fighter.
It was felt perhaps the French could offer Mirage IIIs but availability was uncertain, also considered was forcing India to accept an earlier offer from the USA to buy F-104s (India did not wish to buy American equipment and certainly not the same aircraft as used by Pakistan). The conclusion was to report back to America that the RAF could not sacrifice the Lightnings and that the best solution was for America to offer F-104s again and that if India selected the Orpheus 12 engine work could be restarted at any time and perhaps America would finance 75% of the development costs for India.

On 9th July the Defence Committe again looked at the matter. A technical mission had arrived from India to look at the Lightning Mk II. President Kennedy had made it clear any agrement where America bore 75% of the costs of Britain sending a sqaudron of Lightnings with associated equipment and ammunition to India would have to be a secret agreement. MWDP funds were not available. The Committee felt the best answer was for India to continue development of the Marut for its own needs. They felt offering Lightnings at low cost with the American contribution being secret as harming other military export sales. Also it was recognised that the Soviets would undercut any price offered and they were prepared to accept rupees as payment. It was simply hoped India would abandon buying foreign types and complete the Marut instead. Given the risks to Britain's arms exports no knock-down prices would be offered.
 

Delta Force

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Hood said:
It seems several efforts were made to exploit Mach 2 performance in the Marut. William Green in his 1964 edition of 'The World's Fighting Planes' mentions the Mk2. The USSR had offered the RD-9F but apparantly becuase the Soviets were unwilling to develop the type further beyond its M1.4 compressor stress limit talks broke down at the beginning of 1964. Various other engines were then looked at, afterburning Orpheus as used in the 1A, the Brandner E-300, the RR RB.153, the P&W J52 and the GE1/JO-1. By the end of 1964 no decision apparantely had been made.

Would it still have been twin engined, or would it be able to achieve Mach 2 using a single higher thrust afterburning engine?
 

Hood

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The text does not make that clear, but think all would have been twin-engine. All these engines were used or planned for small twin-engine fighters (except the E-300 but it seems small enough to fit) and the thrust from a single engine of these types was not likely to enable the aircraft to reach Mach 2. I guess the idea might have been to limit design and production changes.
 

Justo Miranda

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Late Kurt Tank projects
(Merged with older topics about the Marut )
 

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Maveric

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Thanks for this great views!!!
Do you have more Infos about the HAL Glider? (technical data)

Servus Maveric
 

Justo Miranda

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Wingspan 9 m.
6 per cent thickness/chord ratio
50 degrees rear swept at the leading edge
rate of descent 3,800 feet per minute
25 sq. m wing area (early)
28 sq. m wing area (late) extended wing chord at the root by 10 per cent.
overall lenght 16.27 m.
height 3.24 m.
twin non ejectable seats
anti-spin parachute
variable incidence tailplane
the undercarriage retraction system, wheel-brakes, flaps and cheese-type air brakes was operated with a pneumatic bottle.
wood/plywood construction
;)
 

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