Grumman FSW X-29 (G-712) and its rivals

overscan (PaulMM)

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Rockwell design that competed against the Grumman design that became the X-29. Note the Berkut-alike design, this was an earlier version.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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The first pic above is from Flug-Revue July 1979. It seems that a mockup of the Saberbat was shown at the Paris Airshow 1979. I don't suppose anyone visited and took photos? ;)
 

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flateric

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Some more pics
 

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Sundog

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I just call this design the X-29B because it uses a stretched X-29 fuselage. This was a drawing sent to me way back in 1982 by an engineer at Grumman when I was in high school writing a paper about how I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer. I had written various companies about my report and had asked them to critique my designs I had sent with my letter. Many of them responded and sent me photos and drawings, mostly of existing planes, but the Grumman Engineer sent me this design.

At the time, as you've seen back in these forums, Grumman was studying supercruise canard fighters for the ATF design studies. As such, I am assuming this was a close coupled canard super-cruise demonstrator design study.

Edit 2017-04-25 I corresponded with professor Mason about this design and he said it didn't have anything to do with the X-29, especially if you take the time to notice that it is about fourteen feet longer than an X-29. He said it was from the "Air Force Projects" area of the company.
 

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TinWing

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Sundog said:
I just call this design the X-29B because it uses a stretched X-29 fuselage. This was a drawing sent to me way back in 1982 by an engineer at Grumman when I was in high school writing a paper about how I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer. I had written various companies about my report and had asked them to critique my designs I had sent with my letter. Many of them responded and sent me photos and drawings, mostly of existing planes, but the Grumman Engineer sent me this design.

At the time, as you've seen back in these forums, Grumman was studying supercruise canard fighters for the ATF design studies. As such, I am assuming this was a close coupled canard super-cruise demonstrator design study.

This strikes me more as an alternative to the contemporary Northrop F-20 "Tigershark," or perhaps as an alternative to the Rockwell/DASA X-31 demonstrator. The wing area is also very similar to the X-31 - with very high wingloading for a typical canard delta.
 

rousseau

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Sundog said:
I just call this design the X-29B because it uses a stretched X-29 fuselage. This was a drawing sent to me way back in 1982 by an engineer at Grumman when I was in high school writing a paper about how I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer. I had written various companies about my report and had asked them to critique my designs I had sent with my letter. Many of them responded and sent me photos and drawings, mostly of existing planes, but the Grumman Engineer sent me this design.
According your experience you had, you factually are not poor. ;D I can image that pix you sent to so many aeroplane cooporation are realy ahead of the time, so they sent back the photos showed plane, that always be existing. The drawing Grumman sent to you also is conservative.
 

TinWing

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Sundog said:
I just call this design the X-29B because it uses a stretched X-29 fuselage. This was a drawing sent to me way back in 1982....

This design is covered by U.S. patent 4,417,708, filed on May 12, 1982 and titled "Interchangeable Wing Aircraft."
 

Sundog

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Here's another variation on the X-29 with a BoP style (Weissmann?) wing.

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5542625&id=l60kAAAAEBAJ&dq=Grumman+aircraft
 

flateric

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Genesis of X-29 - first scetch by Nathan Kirschbaum, also shown in artist's rendering here
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,106.msg576.html#msg576
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Source:

Steve Pace, X-29, Aero Series 1991
 

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italian_o

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Hello,

I have found a pair of drawings on the never developed project of the F-16 Swept (inverse) wing.

f16fsw.jpg


I give a look at a some books on the F-16 but this project was never explained.

Is possible to find detailed drawings or other infos?

Thanks!
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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From AIAA paper

83-1833 Application of Forward Sweep Wings to an Air Combat Fighter
B. D. Miller and S. K. Hadley, General Dynamics Fort Worth Division

F-16 SFW competed with Rockwell Saberbat and Grumman G-712 for a DARPA contract for an FSW research aircraft. Several types of design were tested, some including canards.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Modelling stuff moved here:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3023.msg24319/topicseen.html#msg24319
 

hesham

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Hi,

can anybody recognize this Rockwell FSW aircraft project ?.
http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1980/1980%20-%200571.html?search=lockheed%20aircraft%20project%201980

Rockwell proves forward sweep
FORWARD Swept Wing (FSW) technology
by Rockwell has been successfully
demonstrated in windtunnel
tests conducted at Nasa's Langley research
facility. In one series, a 6/10
scale FSW was tested to measure the
wing's ability to withstand aeroelastic
divergence at various Mach numbers
and altitudes. These tests established
that advanced graphite-epoxy
composites could be employed in a
FSW capable of withstanding the
stresses of the high-energy manoeuvring
encountered in combat. Additionally,
verification of analytical
tools required for the development
of a manned FSW demonstrator was
obtained.
The second series of tests involved
aerodynamic force testing in Langley's
8ft pressure tunnel. The test
objective was to determine the aerodynamic
stability and wing efficiency
of the -09 scale force model built
by Rockwell's North American Aircraft
Division. Dick Child, the FSW
project manager, stated that "the
tests were very successful; the results
agreed well with our projections for
this design."
 

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sferrin

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Like the title says.
 

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hesham

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Hi,

http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1982/1982%20-%200310.html
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Better copy of this pic, found at DVIC.
 

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Pioneer

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Was there any specifications /tech data given for the Sabrebat?

Regards
Pioneer
 

flateric

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Rockwell's Saberbat ad from 1980
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Small images found online.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=693837
 

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Triton

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Triton

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Photograph of Col. Norris J Krone, Jr., manager of the DARPA forward-swept wing program, pictured with models of the Grumman G-712, General Dynamics SFW F-16, and the Rockwell Sabrebat at his office in Arlington, VA in 1980.
 

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Colonial-Marine

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So this Rockwell design was actually planned to be a fighter unlike the X-29? Did they offer it as an alternative to F-16 for the USAF, or for export sales?
 

Triton

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Rockwell International Sabrebat advertisements circa 1980.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Colonial-Marine said:
So this Rockwell design was actually planned to be a fighter unlike the X-29? Did they offer it as an alternative to F-16 for the USAF, or for export sales?

Saberbat was Rockwell's rival design to the Grumman X-29. Probably the hope was not just to build a demonstrator but lead to a production fighter, assuming that the FSW worked well.
 

Triton

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Artist's impression of North American D634-20G aka Rockwell International Sabrebat.

URL: http://cgi.ebay.com/NORTH-AMERICAN-D634-20G-JET-AIRCRAFT-FSW-CONCEPT-ART_W0QQitemZ110499251981QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19ba44c70d

Seller's description:
North American Aviation Aircraft Advanced Technology Demonstrator Concept .

I was fortunate to be able to obtain a number of origional aircraft concept art works from North American Aviation. I think the work depicts the North American/Rockwell International G634-20G the rival to the Grumman X-29A Advanced Technology Demonstrator. The aircraft was wind tunnel tested on a 1/9TH scale model and was a Rockwell Swept Forward Wing competition concept.

The aircraft is shown what I think as defending Pt. Mugu from attack by Mig type aggressors with an AWAC in the upper left. (Looks like Pt. Mugu when I have flown by the base.)
 

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frank

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Other than the wings, it doesn't look like the other Sabrebat photos. Was this supposed to be a production a/c so different from the single-engined F-16 - like fuselage design?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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If you check the posts on page one you will see both chin and side inlets designs. I believe the chin inlet was the definitive proposal.
 

Triton

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Full-size mock-up of Rockwell Sabrebat on cover of Aviation Week & Space Technology February 12, 1979.

Source: http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk42/atafsw/?action=view&current=AVWKRockFSW.jpg
 

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