Grumman Design 118 (not the XF12F!)

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,438
Reaction score
7,082
Designed as a missile armed all weather interceptor to complement the F8U-1. Two prototypes were ordered in 1955 but cancelled in favour of the McDonnell XF4H-1.

Used 2 x 18,000lb J79-GE-207 turbojets, APQ-50 radar. Armament was 3 Sparrow or two Sparrows and 3 Sidewinders flush mounted under the fuselage.

Span: 13.39m
Length: 17.83m
Height: 4.52m
Empty: 11,909kg
Loaded: 16,919kg
Speed: Mach 2.0+

Source:
Rene J. Francillon, Grumman Aircraft Since 1929, Naval Institute Press
 

Attachments

  • XF12F-1.jpg
    XF12F-1.jpg
    57 KB · Views: 1,029

Matej

Multiuniversal creator
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
2,613
Reaction score
198
Website
www.hitechweb.genezis.eu
Another 3-view modified from Scale-Master fax-file Sheet no.147

Prototype to have a pair of General Electric J79-GE-3 afterburning turbojets with 15 600 lbs thrust each, plus one 5000 lb rocket (!). Production machines two J79-GE-207. Assigned with BuNo´s 143401 and 143402. Folding fins were designed to help stabilize at high Mach nubmers. Seats lowered from cockpit for access and the entire nose was to break away in emergency.
 

Attachments

  • XF12F-1.JPG
    XF12F-1.JPG
    28 KB · Views: 983

elmayerle

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
1,434
Reaction score
302
I've seen drawings of the same airframe with four Eagle missiles under the wings as the high-speed Grumman answer to the RFP that resulted in the Missileer.
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
6,564
Reaction score
5,215
elmayerle said:
I've seen drawings of the same airframe with four Eagle missiles under the wings as the high-speed Grumman answer to the RFP that resulted in the Missileer.

This could have been the tomcats of the early 60's... and remind me the "Tomcat ancestor" we talked about the other day in the whatif modeler forum (salvo the VG wing of course)

PS Thorvic made a lovely model of the F-12F (starting from a Su-15!)
 

Chris707

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
19
Reaction score
7
Chris
------------------------
http://www.dataviewbooks.com newly updated with new patents and recognition pages
 

Attachments

  • f12f-1.jpg
    f12f-1.jpg
    26.9 KB · Views: 312

Ranger6

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Messages
44
Reaction score
4
;D

Sferrin,

Yes, this was a real design, although I don't believe the designation was F-12F. The original F-11F Tiger was a good day fighter, but was not able to achieve supersonic speed in level flight and was at the end of its development potential. "Sageburner" was supposed to fix these problems by mating the F-11 fuselage with the J-79 engine. Since the F-4 Phantom and the F-8 Crusader were already in production and could do everything the upgraded Tiger could and more, the Navy decided not to pursue the project.

Likewise, since no F-11s were exported, ther was no incentive to get production underway. That said, I wonder what might have been if some early F-11s had gone into service and were then upgraded with the J-79 (in a process similar to waht the Israelis did with the Mirage III) and other enhancements.

Perhaps someone wants to hypothesize?

Regards,

Ranger6
 

starviking

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2006
Messages
1,214
Reaction score
372
Hi,

American Secret Projects gives this as the Grumman Design 118 (Pages 125-6). Two prototypes were ordered in 1956, but cancelled before any construction had begun.

ASP also states that the designation XF12F-1 had been assigned at different times to both the Super Tiger and the Model 118, the Super Tiger designation being semi-official.

Starviking
 

Antonio

Moderator
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,638
Reaction score
494
Some bibliografic references:

Naval Fighters No 44: F11F-1F Supertiger - Grumman's Mach-2 International

American Secret Projects: Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978. Tony Buttler

;)
 

F-14D

I really did change my personal text
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
1,869
Reaction score
430
pometablava said:
Some bibliografic references:

Naval Fighters No 44: F11F-1F Supertiger - Grumman's Mach-2 International

American Secret Projects: Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978. Tony Buttler

;)

The F11F-1F (F11 with J79) was built, and even proposed to Japan. USN had no real interest since by then the F-4 was on the way, a much more capable and versatile aircraft.
 

Tailspin Turtle

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
702
Reaction score
151
Website
www.tommythomason.com
I wasn't sure where to post this since there are other threads on or that mention the F12F so I started a new one, particularly since it is a significantly different take on the subject.

The F12F designation has been tied to the Grumman Design 118, a large Sparrow-armed fighter powered by two General Electric J79 engines. It was to have a throttleable rocket engine for additional thrust augmentation. Retractable ventral fins were provided for directional stability at high speed. For low drag, two of the Sparrows were semi-submerged in the lower fuselage and a third, or three Sidewinders, housed in a retractable box. The original proposal called for the two-man crew to enter from below. Because an ejection at Mach 2 was likely to cause severe injuries, if survivable at all, the nose section was to separate first, with the crew using ejection seats following deceleration of the nose to an acceptable speed accomplished with a drag chute.

Grumman proposed this airplane to BuAer in December 1955. According to Hal Andrews, however, the Navy wouldn’t entertain a twin-J79 powered Grumman proposal since they already a similar design, the F4H, under contract. BuAer therefore suggested to Grumman that they compete, along with the rest of industry, for a competitor to the F4H powered by a single engine, the Pratt & Whitney’s big J75. Grumman hastily prepared an updated proposal, adding their Model 118A incorporating the J75, which they provided to the Navy in early May. BuAer’s response to the updated proposal was, in part:

The recent receipt of more up-to-date engine data does not alter their relative standings of your design with others already programmed in the fighter field. The Chief of the Bureau of Aeronautics has therefore determined that the introduction of another design using the same engines and conforming to the same general operation requirements cannot be justified or undertaken.

This version of events would suggest that the Design 118 was never seriously considered for funding by the Navy and would not have received an official designation.

A more likely candidate for the F12F designation is identified in two handwritten notes, both by the same person (initials IMP?), found by Joe Gordon of the Navy’s Aviation History Branch “in some old NAVAIR records, which were inherited from the Bureau of Aeronautics.”

1. F12F
Grumman Design 98J2
Very similar to F11F-1F & with same engine J79
Longer nose; ventral tail fins; slightly different intake duct design
Shoulder mounting of Sparrow missiles & pylon Sidewinders

Orig intention Bu??.Inst h2000.23 of 19 July 1955 provided for 23; 2 were ordered on NOO(g) 56-250 (PR EN11-282-56) cutos 4 August 55)
Contract cancelled 4 Jan 56
BuNos 143401 & 143402

Per Wm H Plant

2. F12F
In a more recent telecon, Bill Plant told me he didn’t know whether a contract for the F12F had been issued. He had PO No., Contract No, and assigned serials, but was unable to obtain a contract file.

From this I presume that the contract was never let and that the program was cancelled in the 3-9 months period between initiation of PO and issuance of contract. Note – assignment of Contract No. occurs very early in this process.

IMP 3/30/36


Note that the date following the contract number in the first note is the same month the RFP was issued that Vought responded to for the F8U-3. It’s also the same month that the Navy reportedly accepted Grumman’s proposal to re-engine the last two production F11Fs with the J79. The cancellation occurred shortly after the F8U-3 mockup review at Vought in December 1955.

A SAC was issued with the designation F12F. See below. However, SAC designations might not be official. For example, Grumman proposed a derivative of the F11F as the "A2F", which was of course, officially assigned to a subsequent proposal.

The assigned BuNos are much lower than those for the F8U-3s and there is an interesting juxtaposition with other aircraft:

143232/143366 Grumman F11F-1 Tiger Contract cancelled
143367/143387 Grumman F11F-1P Tiger Contract cancelled.
143388/143392 McDonnell YF4H-1 Phantom (No 1 was 142259)
143393/143400 Douglas F5D-1 Skylancer Contract cancelled
143401/143402 Grumman XF12F-1 Contract cancelled

It’s possible that everybody’s right. Grumman certainly did do a design study of a twin-J79, Sparrow armed fighter and it might have been informally referred to as the F12F by Grumman and/or the Navy for a time after the Super Tiger was canceled. However, somebody was trying to fund the next phase of the Super Tiger program and these aircraft were designated F12F (F11F-2 might have made more sense but the Navy was not hidebound on their designation practice). The first two were assigned BuNos 143401/2 long before the Design 118 was in play.
 

Attachments

  • F12F 15Aug55 front.jpg
    F12F 15Aug55 front.jpg
    742.3 KB · Views: 559
  • F12F 15Aug55 Back A.jpg
    F12F 15Aug55 Back A.jpg
    689.6 KB · Views: 536

Andreas Parsch

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
246
Reaction score
22
In "US Naval Air Superiority: Development of Shipborne Jet Fighters 1943-1962", Author Tommy H. Thomason also rejects the notion that the F12F designation was ever associated with the Grumman Model 118. Instead, he also names the Model 98J Super Tiger as the design for which the F12F designation was used. He also mentions the SAC summary ;).
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,438
Reaction score
7,082
From Ryan Crierie's SACs, cleaned up by me.
 

Attachments

  • Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-2.jpg
    Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-2.jpg
    201.7 KB · Views: 541
  • Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-1.jpg
    Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-1.jpg
    82.9 KB · Views: 599

saturncanuck

Any landing you can walk away from, is a good one.
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
299
Reaction score
10
Website
www.aerofile.ca
Ever since I saw this in Mr Francillon's book, I always thought it was a pretty design.

But, what would they have chosen for a name?

Lynx?

Lion?
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
8,063
Reaction score
4,149

Attachments

  • 118.jpg
    118.jpg
    8.4 KB · Views: 181
  • 118B.jpg
    118B.jpg
    7.8 KB · Views: 209
Last edited:

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,438
Reaction score
7,082
In "US Naval Air Superiority: Development of Shipborne Jet Fighters 1943-1962", Author Tommy H. Thomason also rejects the notion that the F12F designation was ever associated with the Grumman Model 118. Instead, he also names the Model 98J Super Tiger as the design for which the F12F designation was used. He also mentions the SAC summary ;).
This message was mildly hilarous. Clearly Andreas did not realise who "TailspinTurtle" is :)
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
8,063
Reaction score
4,149
I posted interesting site, but owner deleted it. It's very difficult to post.
 
Last edited:

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,438
Reaction score
7,082
You posted a link to google books of Tommy’s book which didn’t actually work - it gave me an error message in Japanese about the page not being available for preview - and a link to a fake model made in the Phillipines. Not useful.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
8,063
Reaction score
4,149
Ummm.........No problem in Japan.
Please delete if this is not proper.

[edit - no need to delete but added source below - Admin]

From Tommy Thomason's book U.S. Naval Air Superiority: Development of Shipborne Jet Fighters - 1943-1962
 

Attachments

  • CAPSULE.JPG
    CAPSULE.JPG
    33.2 KB · Views: 197
  • ROCKET ENGINE.JPG
    ROCKET ENGINE.JPG
    39.1 KB · Views: 185
  • CAPSULE.JPG
    CAPSULE.JPG
    79.4 KB · Views: 178
  • ROCKET ENGINE.JPG
    ROCKET ENGINE.JPG
    78.5 KB · Views: 181
Last edited by a moderator:

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,438
Reaction score
7,082
Ummm.........No problem in Japan.
Google Books Preview shows different pages to different people and limits the total pages displayed. The fact that your link showed the right page to you is no guarantee I will be able to see that page from the link you post. Post a link to the book, not the page. Also when adding links you don't need use the links button, just paste the link in the page text. It will be unfurled as above if possible.
 

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
8,063
Reaction score
4,149
Thanks a lot.:)
Excellent book!!
 

riggerrob

I really should change my personal text
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
1,564
Reaction score
1,047
Ejection seats work best in the low speed, low altitude emergencies that occur when landing or taking-off. These emergencies kill the most pilots.
OTOH supersonic ejections are usually limited to combat. Supersonic ejections require much more complicated, multi-stage parachutes to stabilize and slow the pilot to airspeeds slow enough for him to survive opening shock. Hence all the projected ejectable cockpits. Ejectable cockpits also protect pilots against flail injuries (e.g. broken arms) the same way the canopy does on Mig-23.
And that is also why many modern (since the 1950s) ejection seats deploy stabilizing drogues (small parachutes) before main chutes.
 

Bill S

ACCESS: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
608
Reaction score
637
Model 118 Left side view, top view and data from the general arrangement drawing.
 

Attachments

  • xGrumman-Model-118-Data.jpg
    xGrumman-Model-118-Data.jpg
    75 KB · Views: 125
  • xGrumman-Model-118-Side-View.jpg
    xGrumman-Model-118-Side-View.jpg
    39.5 KB · Views: 127
  • xGrumman-Model-118-Top-View.jpg
    xGrumman-Model-118-Top-View.jpg
    49.4 KB · Views: 145

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
8,063
Reaction score
4,149

Attachments

  • Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-1.jpg
    Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-1.jpg
    290.7 KB · Views: 51
  • Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-2.jpg
    Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-2.jpg
    323.9 KB · Views: 48
  • Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-3.jpg
    Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-3.jpg
    338.6 KB · Views: 44
  • Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-4.jpg
    Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-4.jpg
    306.8 KB · Views: 36
  • Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-5.jpg
    Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-5.jpg
    343.8 KB · Views: 37
  • Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-6.jpg
    Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-6.jpg
    309.3 KB · Views: 38
  • Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-7.jpg
    Grumman_Design_118_SAC_-_12_December_1955_(Tommy)-7.jpg
    274.4 KB · Views: 56
  • v2-3b7c00908476ff4ea21b3d35b7885d26_hd.jpg
    v2-3b7c00908476ff4ea21b3d35b7885d26_hd.jpg
    94.5 KB · Views: 62
  • v2-2d206ed05c071fcde0c3b00bd7a667cc_hd.jpg
    v2-2d206ed05c071fcde0c3b00bd7a667cc_hd.jpg
    91.1 KB · Views: 69
  • 118.JPG
    118.JPG
    39.8 KB · Views: 164

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,438
Reaction score
7,082
118-jpg.654865


This model is probably a crappy Philippines knock off.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Top