German Atomic Bombs in WW2

Should we close the topic on German Atom Bomb Projects in WW2?

  • Immediately! Nuke it from orbit, its the only way to be sure

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • Yes. It's going nowhere

    Votes: 18 50.0%
  • Meh. Not bothered either way

    Votes: 5 13.9%
  • No! I"m enjoying the arguments

    Votes: 5 13.9%
  • Hell no! It's vital new information about a misunderstood topic

    Votes: 1 2.8%

  • Total voters
    36
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Does that sound to you like Rider is peddling "a conspiracy theory", or that he is raising legitimate and serious questions about the conventional historical narrative which has come down to the present day largely from Samuel Goudsmit's demonstrably inadequate and dishonest account? [/B]

Honestly, yes. He uses "presumably" in almost every paragraph to attribute things to other things with no actual evidence. "Just asking questions" is the smoking gun hallmark of EVERY conspiracy peddler.

Maybe the earth is flat - I'm just asking questions!
Maybe COVID is a false flag / Bill Gates microchip / UN world government ploy / Big Pharma plot - I'm just asking questions!

Samuel Goudsmit may well have had an agenda. He might have belittled the German atom bomb effort for political advantage, because he was racist and hates German people, who knows?

More likely, he expected, like everyone, that the US was in a race for survival to build the bomb first, who found (as the head of ALSOS) that Germany had barely left the start line at a leisurely jog. His testimony reflects that.

That isn't evidence of a coverup. Maybe they missed a few bit and pieces that we can add to the historical record - I have no doubt this is true. I doubt they missed a test detonation of a nuclear bomb and a workable nuke.
 
The last three or so pages of postings seem like a lot of gear grinding, lock it and let everyone cool off.
 
What is so weird about a skilled technician in missile guidance systems also serving as an observer of a nuclear test?

You do realise that you're talking to an audience with a considerable proportion of "skilled technicians"? I'm a "skilled technician" in aircraft guidance systems and I'd certainly not be qualified over and above any random private plucked from the front to commentate on a nuclear test. Hell, I'd barely be qualified to work on flight trials of the aircraft I helped develop without additional training.
 
More likely, he expected, like everyone, that the US was in a race for survival to build the bomb first, who found (as the head of ALSOS) that Germany had barely left the start line at a leisurely jog. His testimony reflects that.

And is confirmed by the unguarded evidence of the German nuclear scientists chatting away amongst themselves at Farm Hall.
 
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All that to say, by all means, draw your own conclusions. But read the book, or at least Chapter 8 and Appendix D, before you pass judgment on both the conventional historical narrative and Rider's dissenting work.

I am continually amazed by people who do little or no reading in a given book, document, thesis, or treatise and yet presume to dismiss it or otherwise make what they seem to believe are authoritative pronouncements about it. They did the same thing to Robert Wilcox when his book, Japan's Secret War, first appeared in 1985. How well I remember an article that is now very hard to find called "Retroactive Saber Rattling?", which was all about the impossibility of there having been any kind of significant WWII Japanese nuclear weapon development, and therefore Wilcox's book was obviously written by some kind of knuckle-dragger trying to make himself and like minded American simpletons feel better about themselves for nuking poor, peaceful Japan, you see.

Oops.



So, I'll stick with Dr. Rider, the more so because, like Wilcox, he constructs his dissenting historical narrative directly from original primary source papers.

Beyond this point, I'm headed back to That Other Site That Begins With A Capital Q. If anyone wants to learn more or to interact with me, I'm easy to find over there. Dr. Rider is also readily accessible through his website.


It turns out that a number of quite prominent and reputable people who have actually read Forgotten Creators endorse it wholeheartedly. It will be immediately obvious that these are not the crank lunatic conspiracy theorist fringe, and some of the names that appear below may in fact be familiar to some people on this site. I wish to thank the moderators for allowing me to present the information I have presented here. Have a nice day, everyone.

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"A very valuable part of the book is devoted to the development of nuclear weapons in Germany during WWII, 1939--1945. While the histories of both the US/British Manhattan Project and the Soviet atomic project have been to a large extent declassified, little is actually known about the German work. Rider has done historians a favor by marshalling all of the evidence he could find in US, German, and Russian archives regarding the German atomic project. The inescapable conclusion is that the Germans were much farther advanced in nuclear weapons development than is generally thought."

- Lee Pondrom, Professor Emeritus of Physics, University of Wisconsin-Madison, author of The Soviet Atomic Project: How the Soviet Union Obtained the Atomic Bomb

"Todd Rider has produced a meticulously researched and cogently argued tour de force on the men and the circumstances that drove the modern German Renaissance in science and technology. Brought out of the long shadow of the Third Reich, the story of this Golden Age of human enquiry is convincingly shown to have as much relevance to our present times as it did then. A remarkable achievement."

- Stephen Walton, Senior Curator, U.K. Imperial War Museum

"Todd H. Rider's Forgotten Creators is a monumental treatise about and an exciting intellectual journey through the contributions of scientists and technologists in Germany and other Central European countries and German-speaking areas to universal progress. It is thoroughly researched, meticulously documented, and presented in an easy-to-perceive way. The pre-war and pre-Nazi German system of science support has lessons that would be difficult to emulate but worthy to ponder about even today. The long-range tragic consequences in science caused by National Socialism are well demonstrated as are the benefits in the West and in the East from the exodus of Jewish scientists before and the importation of others from Germany following World War II. The book is a virtually bottomless well for mining reliable information in the history of science and technology. The 'forgotten creators' are no longer forgotten. Todd is to be congratulated for his accomplishment and thanked for sharing it so generously with the international community."

- István Hargittai, Professor Emeritus of Chemistry, Budapest University of Technology and Economics, author of Buried Glory, Candid Science, Drive and Curiosity, Great Minds, Judging Edward Teller, Martians of Science, and The Road to Stockholm

"Todd H. Rider's Forgotten Creators is an encyclopedic consideration of Germany's central place in the advancement of science and technology between 1800 and 1945. Drawing upon a wide range of sources, Rider has summarized that effort in a survey that will impress the reader just as much for the breadth of German intellectual achievement as for the influence that achievement has had upon the modern world."

- George W. Cully, retired Director, Office of History at Air University, Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama

"The book Forgotten Creators is a really impressive book, as Todd H. Rider tries to mention all relevant German-speaking scientists and engineers and their scientific fields up to 1945 in this mammoth project. In this form, nobody has dared to do this before. The author deserves my full respect for this. I am pleased that we were able to support him in his research."

- Thomas Köhler, Peenemünde Historical-Technical Museum historian and head of the archive, author of Vernichtender Fortschritt: Serienfertigung und Kriegseinsatz der Peenemünder "Vergeltungswaffen"

"Forgotten Creators is an examination of mid-twentieth-century German science and technology, studying the question of how this era came to be so productive. Using extensive reproduction of original materials and source accounts, the author is not only able to provide an overview of what is known about wartime activities, but is also able to indicate avenues for future historical research. The careful and comprehensive referencing permits the materials presented to be used in academic studies. A notable feature of this work is the fluid format provided by online publication, allowing revisions and new materials to be added. An especially important emphasis of the book is what can be learned from both the German-speaking scientists and the World War II era in general that could improve scientific productivity and creativity now."

- Thomas Kunkle, Los Alamos National Laboratory, retired

"In the book Forgotten Creators, Todd H. Rider presents interesting perspectives that contribute to rethinking the story of the German nuclear project, as well as the role that heavy water had in it. The book also confirms the importance of the military actions carried out against heavy water production at Vemork."

- Gunhild Lurås, Heavy Water Exhibition Curator, Norwegian Industrial Workers Museum, Vemork

"With his work, based on very comprehensive, thoroughly researched sources, Todd Rider has presented an astonishing study of the history of German science, especially in the first half of the twentieth century, which also reveals many connections that have been unjustly forgotten or little noticed. This also applies to numerous persons whose achievements are hardly known."

- Günter Nagel, author of Wissenschaft für den Krieg, Himmlers Waffenforscher, Atomversuche in Deutschland, and Das geheime deutsche Uranprojekt 1939--1945

"Forgotten Creators by Todd Rider is an extraordinary work of detailed research and new insights into the technological advances contributed by German-speaking scientists. His lengthy and in-depth study of history often overlooked or not even seen in more cursory reviews is a refreshing read. His attempt to create the fullest account possible has resulted in a fine reference book that also serves to introduce new research for the reader. Rider's contention, right up front in the Executive Summary---that inventions and discoveries had their highest concentration of revolutionary innovations from scientists and engineers from the German-speaking central European research world in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries---demands the reader's attention. He then fills an enormous amount of over 4,000 pages with supporting details. Amazing subject matter and new revolutionary insights dug up through meticulous research make Forgotten Creators a 'must read' for serious historians and curious researchers alike."

- D. Ray Smith, Oak Ridge Historian, retired Y-12 Historian, author, and newspaper columnist

"Todd Rider's extensively researched and amazingly detailed book opens a new world for everybody interested in the history of science. Never before has anyone dug as deeply into the sources as Todd has, such that he even discovered interesting details about our father, then a young officer, and revealed some new aspects about him to us, his children. We are very grateful for Todd's interest, dedication, and thorough research."

- Andrea (Stoelzel) Edwards and Bernhard Stoelzel, children of former Peenemünde staff member Heinz Stoelzel

"This truly voluminous study provides an in-depth overview of techno-scientific achievements and innovations which originated from the German-speaking world. It is a rich and fascinating history of the transnational circulation of knowledge over a period of no less than two centuries."

- Helmuth Trischler, Head of Research, Deutsches Museum, Munich, author of Luft- und Raumfahrtforschung in Deutschland 1900--1970 and Building Europe on Expertise: Innovators, Organizers, Networkers

"A most important and deserving book. Todd Rider's research on the German rocket and nuclear programs in World War II is especially impressive because of the number and depth of the sources cited and the meticulousness of their evaluation. Really pioneering work has been done here!"

- Matthias Uhl, Deutsches Historisches Institut, Moscow, author of Stalins V-2: Der Technologietransfer der deutschen Fernlenkwaffentechnik and Die Organisation des Terrors: Der Dienstkalender Heinrich Himmlers 1943--1945
 
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A final note: Does this sound like a conspiracy theorist, or a dissenting scholar asking serious questions about the conventional narrative?

From Forgotten Creators, p. 1509:

8.8.15 Further Research That is Needed

The information that is currently available about the wartime German nuclear weapons program appears to best match the pattern of a very large and very advanced program, not the small and primitive program that has been depicted in conventional histories.
Historians should actively search for additional information that could help to confirm or refute this picture:

- Any relevant records in U.S., U.K., French, Russian, or other national archives should be located, declassified, and released to the public. Even from the currently available evidence, it is abundantly clear than highly relevant documents (wartime intelligence on German nuclear tests and progress; postwar interrogations of Hans Kammler, German and Austrian nuclear scientists, and other key players; reports on postwar investigations of nuclear-related sites and submarines; etc.) remain classified and unavailable to the public. The war ended over 76 years ago, and government censorship of all those historical documents must finally end.

- Any relevant information in personal collections (war diaries, preserved documents, pho- tographs, etc.) should be located, authenticated, and analyzed with the other available data.

- Thorough scientific analyses of suspected test sites should be conducted (especially using mass spectrometry, particle-induced X-ray emission, neutron activation analysis, or other highly sensitive methods; looking for 238U from the tamper; and comparing data at and away from the test sites to eliminate background signals), although after 76+ years of radioactive decay and weathering, even the most diligent testing might be inconclusive.

- Extensive and meticulous industrial archaeological digs should be conducted at sites suspected to have been involved in developing or storing nuclear materials or nuclear weapons. Even if much of the material at those sites had been removed by German or Allied forces, any remaining evidence could provide conclusive proof about the nature and extent of the wartime nuclear program.

Until those searches have been thoroughly conducted, historians and scientists should cease making authoritative-sounding declarations that the nuclear program was small and unsuccessful, since there is already a great deal of evidence to the contrary.
 
William,

You see here further evidence of what I wrote. But it is not evidence. Denial is easy. Producing over 4,000 pages of documented information is hard.

Producing 4000 pages of apparently meaningful waffle is easy*, precis-ing it to a convincing 40 pages, or 4, is the mark of a man who truly understands his subject**.

* And a common tactic of conspiracy theorists.

** I'm substantially misquoting Richard Feynmann, who said if he couldn't explain something to a class of undergraduates in a lecture he clearly didn't understand it well enough (and went off and invented quantum electrodynamics to clear up his own lack of understanding).
 
And not only nobody on Rugen noticed it,
and the island was overrun by refugee in 1945
no one except a single Italian report that explosion...

...this smell like propaganda

Or someone trying to sell a story to anyone who'd pay him something for it. There are plenty of intelligence sources who turn out that way.
 
100 grams was the minimum load required for achieving brief supercriticality (and a relatively small resulting explosion) and thereby testing the implosion detonators used in the bombs, a detail that had greatly vexed Diebner and other weapons scientists during the development of these weapons.

And which Diebner had conveniently forgotten by the time he, Heisenberg, and all the other scientists at Farm Hall heard of the bombing of Hiroshima, went "What, they have a bomb small enough to fit on a Superfortress?" and went into a group huddle to figure out where their estimates of minimal feasible bomb size had been so wrong.
 
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The directed energy section is the best.

"The first two experiments of this kind which PW [German prisoner of war] witnessed took place in Dec 43 and Jan 44. In one, a 10 cm cube of steel (grade ST0012) was disintegrated within four-tenths of a second. The object in the second experiment was water, contained in a large quartz tube, tilted so that the “rays” would strike the largest possible surface. The water disappeared in two-tenths of a second. The most spectacular experiment was conducted early April 1944, when some 75 rats were made to disappear in the same way. The experiment was photographed from the quartz-enclosed observation tower, and PW claims there was no trace of smoke or flame, nor did any ashes remain on the iron plate. His explanation of this apparent violation of the laws of physics is that the rats were somehow reduced to a gas, which was absorbed by the iron plate."

"In the experiment of Apr 44 (See Report 2/32), PW stated that, when the rats were bombarded by the rays, a phosphorescent glow was observed over their bodies, lasting about a fifth of a second. PW believed that the rats had been reduced to a gaseous [form], which had been driven into the vacuum system of the test stand."

Nazi phasers! Why were they bothering with atomic bombs?
 
Is it all just neo-nazis wishing for what might have been or is there something of value in there?

That the Allies won the war in Europe by a terrifyingly narrow margin is a fact now accepted by almost all military leaders who have seen at first hand Germany’s progress in the guided missiles field.

See, any comment/thread that includes a line like that is just delusional. Nazi Germany was being steamrollered from the East and West, It was over and an expensive and ineffective missile program and/or a kraut nuke would not have made the slightest difference.
 
Historians have long puzzled over why Hitler ordered that some Me-262's be completed as fighter-bombers.

Only dumb ones. Hitler's preference for offense over defense is no secret.

And if you wanted to build a nuclear strike platform out of 1943 Luftwaffe projects, particularly one intended to attack the Allied landings in France, which were probably what Hitler had in mind, the Me-262 is not the one you'd choose (and if you did you'd choose the HGI, or HGII/III as you get into 1944). You couldn't risk a critical mission with a weapon available in limited numbers on an aircraft that was likely to get bounced by local Allied air superiority (and which only had a 1000kg bomb load). A far better choice would be the Ar 234 operating at night, which in its basic version had 50% greater payload and range than the Me 262. Meaning the ability to launch from a more secure airfield, to face a handful of nightfighters instead of swarms of Allied dayfighters, and with a greater chance* of being able to carry the weapon when you eventually figure out how much it weighs.

* Still bugger all, 1,500kg is better than 1,000kg, but even an Ar 234 isn't going to get off the ground carrying a first generation nuke (Fat Man and Little Boy both coming in at about 4,500kg)
 
Absolutely. There is no point in arguing with peoples, who aren't listening to any counter-arguments.

It was over and an expensive and ineffective missile program

Not to mention that with the sole exception of ballistics, Nazi guided missile program lagged behind the US/UK ones.
 
Even though I staunchly believe it's mostly, if not completely, rubbish, I also staunchly believe that debating and dissecting a topic like this is exactly what this forum is all about. As long as this doesn't turn into some nazi fanboy fantasy, separating the wheat from the chaff to me is one of this forum's key missions/objectives. Don't give any delusional cellar dwellers an excuse of whining about being censored/cancelled...
 
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On the one hand I want to know more about the rat disintegrating death ray, but on the other it's a freely available book so there's no need to post the same long excerpts from it over and over again.
 
Even though I staunchly believe it's mostly, if not completely, rubbish, I also staunchly believe that debating and dissecting a topic like this is exactly what this forum is all about.
Even if it isn't deleted, it should at least be moved to the Speculation section.
There's been enough holes found in it to deserve that.

Don't give any delusional cellar dwellers an excuse of whining about being censored/cancelled...
They will anyway, excuse or not
 
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Lock it. I see Martin Bayer's point of dissecting nonsense, but the topic has run its course. Long replies running on and on, adding nothing.
Rat-vapourizing death rays. Sheesh.
 
Dissection is leading us nowhere - just more and more holes, if even the first name of an eyewitness is guesswork then it seems pointless to continue.

It's as crazy as the Titanic swap theory. I read the book, saw all the photos and the minute details claimed right down to counting rivets. It seemed so watertight the way the tale was told - but it was still fantasy.
 
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I have to confess to finding the thread somewhat entertaining and some of the counter-arguments were quite interesting but the thread is very close to, if not already, hamster-wheel territory so locking it is probably prudent.
 
Might be worth examining whether those touting the "Nazis had nukes" "theory" are active anywhere else...
Well, williamjpellas posted only 54 posts so far, and all of them in "Nazi had nukes" topic.

OTOH I'll bet he's leading the field in average words per post.

I'd be willing to see the topic re-opened, but with a strict limit on length of posts. See if he can make a valid argument in a succinct format, rather than snow everyone under with a verbiage wave attack. (Which is absolutely typical of conspiracy theorists in my experience, they lack the insight to analyse the data for what's relevant, so succumb to the assumption more must be better).
 
Rat-vapourizing death rays. Sheesh.

I've definitely seen similar* claims wrt Marconi's pre-war radar experiments (if we substitute barbecued sheep for vapourized rats). ISTR there's something similar in the Japanese research as well.

* ie lacking any understanding of physics.
 
I agree that there are folk who appear to be present just to stir up some nastiness. I believe they are usually addressed as "I name thee 'TROLL'". debating can bring benefit when it brings up new information and encourages the exchange of ideas but, when simple logic shoots down the core of the debate, it becomes a distraction and has a negative impact. I used to be "Concerned about them 'poppet'", as a Yorkshire lass I was very fond of used to say but these days I just try to avoid them.
 
The Allies development of the atomic bomb was driven by the fear the Nazi where going to beat them to it. The engine for this fear was the intelligence reports which, please feel free to correct, have not received a great deal of publication to date. Up until early 45 these reports illuminated a very compelling case that something big was going on deep in Germany. However the boots on the ground proved the reality was very different. Sounds familiar? WMD Iraq about 20years ago? …… and then there was the bomber gap…… oh and the missile gap, …,Star Wars SDI….Soniccruiser etc etc

This type of embellished intelligence reporting is responsible for a lot of technology development urgency (both military and civil) which is the mother of free thinking invention/speculative funding, which ultimately is the reason we click on to this site.

What’s gone wrong here is the subtle dismissal of the “boots on the ground” evidence of WW2 atomic technology and it’s replacement by the narrative that we’ve been/are still being lied to by some nefarious controller.

I’m really surprised by the endorsement that Rider has got from some individuals in places
which will find difficulty with supporting such a narrative;- did they read it or were just impressed with its weight?

As for should it continue;- yes if it’s about embellished intelligence driving free thinking technology, but no if a narrative that you were/are still being lied to by some nefarious anonymous controller.
 
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Rider is unquestionably smart and doesn't seem like a typical conspiracy theorist, he just really buys into this "German Revolutionary Innovator" that probably exaggerates the admittedly large German contribution to science and ignores everyone else. The Allies didn't just take credit for the atomic bomb, they stole every technology in the modern world. It's an extension of Great Man Theory really.

Without Rider pellas would be arguing exactly the same from graywolf.us or Black Sun of the Reich, he's been doing it for years and years.
 
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If the moderators feel that the “driving” contributors on that thread are not being consistent with the rules of the forum (either because they choose to be or because their just incapable of it) they should lock it because otherwise they are giving these “driving” contributors (and any similar additional contributors that may hitch a ride) a platform to promote their views and beliefs and license to continue this behavior.

In that context if they were or were not making more reasonable contributions on other threads really isn’t very relevant.

There were hints in some contributions that the standard narrative around 3rd Reich nuclear developments may not necessarily be a complete picture (with further paper/ theoretical and potentially highly limited actual technical/ technological additional advancements potentially being made in isolated pockets away from the wider program). This would still be a million miles short of the objectively absurd claims being made.

Given how unreliable (and, unfortunately, apparently how wilfully manipulated to suit pre-established beliefs) the details being proved are then it’s impossible to give that much weight to any of it at all.
 
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I've definitely seen similar* claims wrt Marconi's pre-war radar experiments (if we substitute barbecued sheep for vapourized rats). ISTR there's something similar in the Japanese research as well.

* ie lacking any understanding of physics.

Now I think of it, the Marconi story is the perfect example of how the historical record ends up full of ascientific clap-trap. Marconi was doing Italy's first radar experiments in the mid-late '30s (ultimately he got nowhere) and a few journalists went up to his villa in the country to see if there was a story in it. They got nowhere with Marconi, but did find a charred sheep in a nearby field (my guess would be it died of something dubious and the farmer tried to cremate it). So of course the headline in the papers was "Marconi working on death-ray".
 
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I’m really surprised by the endorsement that Rider has got from some individuals in places
which will find difficulty with supporting such a narrative;- did they read it or were just impressed with its weight?

I long ago learned to be skeptical of glowing endorsements. I once worked for a guy who turned out to be not only a terrible engineer, but IMO something of a self-important sociopath, who for a blessedly brief moment was skilled in the art of getting himself in front of cameras. He wrote a book. And due to his popularity at the time, a Famous Astronaut came to visit the offices. Bosshole had asked him for an endorsement, which came by way of an endorsement that the Bosshole himself wrote, printed off on a sheet of paper and slid across the table to Famous Astronaut, who signed it. I have no idea if Famous Astronaut actually read the book, but Bossholes own self-endorseent suddenly became Famous Astronaut's with the stroke of a pen.
 
Now I think of it, the Marconi story is the perfect example of how the historical record ends up full of ascientific clap-trap.

Ahem: if'n ya want the ultimate in a story getting blown into spectacular ascientific claptrap, may I present: Project Mogul and Roswell, New Mexico.

A friggen weather balloon carrying a couple of balsa wood sticks and some foil gets turned into a freakin' *industry* of UFO nonsense.

We should be wholly unsurprised that vague rumors and misunderstood reports gets turned into "the Nazis set off six magical nukes."
 
We had several guys in Forum who wanted to proof that Nazi actually build a Atomic Bomb and tested it...

...Remember Kiwiguy ?

For My Part close every attempt to discuss that Topic.

like Overscan say
You are forgetting that the German atomic bomb was immensely superior and lightweight. It was built from unobtanium and unicorn tears.
Sorry they run out of Unicorn thank to Hitler, so No Atomic Bomb for the Nazis...
Here the Photograph proof
hitler-eats-a-unicorn.jpg
 
We had several guys in Forum who wanted to proof that Nazi actually build a Atomic Bomb and tested it...

...Remember Kiwiguy ?

For My Part close every attempt to discuss that Topic.

like Overscan say
You are forgetting that the German atomic bomb was immensely superior and lightweight. It was built from unobtanium and unicorn tears.
Sorry they run out of Unicorn thank to Hitler, so No Atomic Bomb for the Nazis...
Here the Photograph proof

MUTANT HORSE!
 
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