Rheinmetall "Rheinkind" german WW2 Anti-aircraft Missile

Wasp

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Dear Members,

I'm looking for Information on the german AA Missile "Rheinkind"

I stumbled over it in Waffen-Arsenal Sonderband S-49 "Deutsche Fla-Raketen und ihre sowjetischen Kinder" (specialissue S-49 "German AA-Rockets and their soviet children") while originaly searching for information on the Rheinmetall F25 rocket, which I wanted to build as a 1:72 model (as I'm currently in a german WW2 rocket-frenzy ;).
It only contained a size comparison drawing with the EMW Taifun and Tornado (shown here with the started model, mainbody still void of all surface detail) showing that it was supposed to be about 3 meters long.

Further info I could obtain through the web.
The Rheinkind was developed as a small cluster AA rocket with a liquid-fuel rocketengine with a calibre of 300mm (another post said 310mm, probably acounting the raised surface detail?).
Shortly before reaching its destinated height up to 10.000m it would release a cluster of 12 smaller rockets (about the size of the R4M) and the rest of the rocket with its engine should glide back to earth with a parachute, so it would have been reusable with only the "warhead" to be replaced.
The only other picture I could find, was this cgi work.

Any information further info will be appreciated. Especially on those "ribs" on the fins and rear of the rocket.
Possibly cooling ribs of some kind? Or do they only look like ribs on the drawing but are recesses of some kind?
Any ideas?

Thanks!
 

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Barrington Bond

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I'm no expert but looking at the drawing I would guess the fins and the lower area are stamped metal sheets - so following on from that guess they are raised/indented lines for structural strength of the sheet.

Regards,
Barry
 

Michel Van

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that's are stamped metal sheets
in end of WW2 the Third Reich used this as material & cost-saving production method.

i got question about designation "F25"
because this is the Rheinmetall-Borsig F25 "Feuerlilie" a Research craft of the RLM
a sounding rocket for aerodynamic data at trans-sonic speeds
http://www.luft46.com/missile/rheinf55.html

the source: Waffen-Arsenal Sonderband S-49 "Deutsche Fla-Raketen und ihre sowjetischen Kinder"
a Picture labeled the Rocket only as unguided AAM "Rheinkind"
taken from the Book
Vojenske Rakty by Krounlik Jiri/ Ruzicka Bedrich
Prag 1985
it seems this book is source about Rheinkind missile in Internet
 

Wasp

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Thank you for your answers so far!

Stamped sheets sound like a reasonable explanation. By checking again with the original drawing in the Waffen-Arsenal, which is quite big, I thinking that they are raised as the view on the middle fin from above shows that it's not the same width everywhere, but is much thinner at the beginning and the ending while the thicker mainpart has about the length of those stripes seen from the side.

@Michel Van:
Yes. That is correct. F25 is the Feuerlilie. I was looking at first for information on that rocket, as I wanted to built it as model. see pic.
While researching for the Feuerlilie I discovered the Rheinkind, which I found also very interesting as an addition to my WW2 rocket collection.
 

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Justo Miranda

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Feuerlilie additional info
 

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Justo Miranda

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Rheinkind
 

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Justo Miranda

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Planet Projeckt-Phase 1
 

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Justo Miranda

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Planet Projeckt-Phase 2
 

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Justo Miranda

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Pfeilrakete 20 mm.
 

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Wasp

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Dear Justo,

thank you for all that additional drawings! Very interesting stuff! (I'm always wondering how you manage to whizz these things out of your sleeve! What an incredible archive you must have!)

Thanks for the Feuerlilie drawings. I wasn't aware that there were also two different versions of the F25 as well.

As for the Rheinkind.
Do you have some info on the Rheinkind002.jpg?
I suppose they show the small rockets, that should have been the payload of the rocket? Although they also look a bit like the EMW Taifun/Tornado except for those strange fin designs.

Wow, never heard of that planet project before, but it's sure an interesting conception. Do you have some more info on those?
Was this also a Rheinmetall project?

Your input is always very much appreciated!
 

Wasp

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Thanks again.
Do you know if the Phase 2 of Planet was a stage developed after the war by the soviets (as the first drawing shows kyrlilic lettering and I never heard of the Planet project before)?

Its always amazing, that there's always more to discover. I also didn't know that even the Enzian was considered for such a cluster warhead.

Here's a shot of my already built 1:72 E-4 (really small). As a small thank you. :)
 

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Grzesio

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rheinkind.jpg - this drawing is made by me, from the Kroulik and Ruzicka book indeed. :)

Sadly, many of the drawings above are not connected with the Rheinkind at all...

Planet Projeckt-Phase 2 003.jpg
This drawing shows details of the Taifun P, doesn't it?

Planet Projeckt-Phase 2 004.jpg
Pfeilrakete 20 mm 001.jpg
And this is the Taifun F.

Enzian warhead 001.jpg
I strongly doubt if it's an actual Enzian warhead. This drawing comes from RFR document and shows just an initial (probably patent) concept of a shrapnel warhead with spin stabilized pellets.

As far as I understand, Projekt Planet was not a particular rocket project, but a whole program of antiaircraft rockets and missiles carrying cluster warheads with smaller sub-projectiles (propelled or unpropelled, also capable of covering different trajectories).

Regards

Grzesio
 

Wasp

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Thanks Grzesio for the additional info!

I had already thought about those pictures possibly showing some versions of the Taifun, but wasn't sure as the sources I knew stated a length of 1930mm and 1890mm for it.

May I ask on what information you based your drawing Rheinkind.jpg?
Only from the drawing? (judging from your banner I presume you made the rheinkind.jpg that shows the cgi and not Justos rheinkind.jpg showing the drawing.)
Possibly another insight on those tailribs?
 

Grzesio

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May I ask on what information you based your drawing Rheinkind.jpg?
It was drawn solely from the drawing in the Czech "Vojenske rakety" book (reproduced recently in e.g. a couple of Russian publications) - I'd love to learn what is the original source of this representation of the Rheinkind. (I actually made three CGIs of different Rheinkinds back in 2002, also from Planet Projeckt-Phase 2 001.jpg and Planet Projeckt-Phase 2 002.jpg drawings).



If you scroll down this web site http://www.eksplorator.com/70.htm , there's another, rather rough drawing of our Rheinkind - it comes from a Polish book published in 1974, earlier than "Vojenske rakety". There obviously has to be an earlier source.
I'm not fully convinced if the ribs on the fins were actually to be protruding or depressed (they are drawn protruding in the book, but it may be a misinterpretation) - e.g. the Katyusha rockets or German 8 cm RSprgr had fins made of two symmetrical halves with depressed ribs. There were also German rockets with fins made of single sheet of metal, with two ribs, each pressed in opposite direction.

Regards

Grzesio

PS As far as Taifun specs are concerned, I've never seen two books giving the same values - e.g. Taifun F length varies from 1880 to 2100 mm.
 

Wasp

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Interesting link.
Although the information might be taken with caution, as i.e. the "Hecht" has a shape more like the Sänger Spaceplane than the drawings I've seen so far of it (but maybe it's just one of its desigh studies) or the mistitled Feuerlilie F55 as F-25.
Also the shape of the Rheinkind is quite different than yours. And if I understood it correctly, they say that 8 of this Rheinkind were clustered for the Rheinkinder/Planet rocket. It seems a bit massive, if the Rheinkind was really supposed to be 3 meters long, the whole thing would have been somewhere near 6 meters long with a diameter of almost 3 meters I reckon. Furthermore I would have concerns about the stability of the pylons on which the Rheinkind rockets would be attached. There would have been quite a heavy strain on those during starting exeleration if those where 3m Rheinkinder attached me thinks.

As for the Taifun F you are right, although 193cm was the most often stated length I stumbled upon. However on this drawing which might be an original data sheet judging from the small date 19.11.44 on the right lower edge, a Taifun T/K3/L3 is shown with 189cm.

:)
 

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Grzesio

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I think everything's ok with the Rheinkind. Three representations are known to me so far:
1) 300/310 mm rocket with 8 or 12 subprojectiles inside the warhead, 3 m long - from the Kroulik and Ruzicka book of 1985 etc.;
2) A rocket with ogival nose carrying 8 subprojectiles on the ring stabilizer, some 2 m long - from 1960 (Planet Projeckt-Phase 2 001.jpg) and 1974 (link above) books;
3) A rocket with conical nose carrying 12 subprojectiles on the ring stabilizer - first image known to me (Planet Projeckt-Phase 2 002.jpg) comes from 1964.

There was no cluster of Rheinkind rockets as a 6 m long super-Rheinkind, maybe just the description of the pictures at the web site is not too precise - just two different concepts of the rocket are presented.
In the book both versions are presented side by side in one drawing - they are roughly the same calibre, and the caption says literally: "...The project was being developed in two versions: main projectile constituting the 1st stage with small projectiles in the warhead or with small projectiles around the main projectile; 8 small projectiles were placed in every Rheinkinder rocket."

I'd love to know what is this Taifun T/K3/L3 - the date is around the beginning of the series production, but the fin span is just too big...

Regards

Grzesio
 

Wasp

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Yes, that way the Rheinkinder make much more sense.

Possibly the T/K3/L3 is simply designating the fuels used in this version?

T for Tonka-250, a rocketfuel the germans invented during the war, named after the Tonkabean
K3 maybe for Kaliumnitrat (Kalisalpeter) KNO3
L3 well, here I'm lost. Usually you need sulferacid for the Kaliumnitrat to be what the German called "Salbei" (basically Salpetersäure).

Just an idea.
 

Michel Van

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Wasp said:
Yes, that way the Rheinkinder make much more sense.

Possibly the T/K3/L3 is simply designating the fuels used in this version?

T for Tonka-250, a rocketfuel the germans invented during the war, named after the Tonkabean
K3 maybe for Kaliumnitrat (Kalisalpeter) KNO3
L3 well, here I'm lost. Usually you need sulferacid for the Kaliumnitrat to be what the German called "Salbei" (basically Salpetersäure).

Just an idea.


the Fuel of this Taifun is: Salbei aka S-Stoff (92 % HNO3 + 8 % H2SO4) and Tonka-250 (50% triethylamine and 50% xylidine,)
other Information give: SV-stoff and R-Stoff
T/K3/L3 is just designating this version of Taifun next to that were Taifun P (for Prototyp ) for prototype test an Taifun F (Finale version) as serie ? model
 

Grzesio

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T/K3/L3 is just designating this version of Taifun next to that were Taifun P (for Prototyp ) for prototype test an Taifun F (Finale version ?) as serie model
Taifun P and F were developed parallelly and both were ordered for mass production - the difference was in propulsion, solid and liquid fuel respectively.

I'd love to know, how on earth the production version of the Taifun F looked like.
As far as fuels are concerned, I encountered at least six fuel/oxydizer combinations so far. :/

Grzesio
 

Wasp

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Yes, Salbei is Salpeteracid. Usually it's the mix of HNO3 and H2SO4 you describe.
However you can basically use quite a lot of different mineralsalts as basis for Salpeteracid. That's why I had the idea about the KNO3, which would be a possible compound, considering also the many experiments the germans undertook in fueldevelopement.

Date and liquid fuel would let the Taifun T look like a version for the F series then I would guess.

Just another idea:
maybe it was just a designation for a Taifun F meant for a specific use. Like the Rüstsätze nomenklatur?
 

Grzesio

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I think T is just for Taifun, as W for Wasserfall, S for Schmetterling, R for Rheintochter etc.
As far as I know, solid fuelled Taifun [P] was not officially presented by the time our document was created, so there were no official versions F nor P then - rather Taifun T-something, which later became Taifun F indeed.

Tonka-250 (50% triethylamine and 50% xylidine,)
If we assume, this is the real composition of Tonka 250, as other are also described. ;)
Anyway, save for the production version, there were obviously many variants of the Taifun F, differing with size and performance.
If you look closely at the two Cosford examples, they are different in some details - I'd love to know what versions they really are. :(

Grzesio
 

Michel Van

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Grzesio said:
I'd love to know what versions they really are. :(

Grzesio

THX for correction on P F designation on Taifun, Grzesio

about later model of Taifun, look for R-103/110 of Soviet NII-8 bureau
they got Taifun F from Nordhausen, but had to complete development of it and change fuel to nitric acid / kerosene.
the German choice of synthetic fuel S-Stoff/Tonka-250 was because to lack of kerosene and other fuels during the War
the R-103 was discard for larger-calibre Taifun version, the R-110
some info
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/r103.htm
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/r110.htm
 

Grzesio

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Soviets created even three derivatives of the Taifun. KB-88 built R-103 and R-110, you mentioned, basing on the Taifun F, while KB-2 aka NII-642 created RZS-115 developed from the Taifun P. And Americans built their Loki. :)
 

Justo Miranda

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Some Taifun info...
 

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Wasp

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Grzesio said:
May I ask on what information you based your drawing Rheinkind.jpg?
It was drawn solely from the drawing in the Czech "Vojenske rakety" book (reproduced recently in e.g. a couple of Russian publications) - I'd love to learn what is the original source of this representation of the Rheinkind. (I actually made three CGIs of different Rheinkinds back in 2002, also from Planet Projeckt-Phase 2 001.jpg and Planet Projeckt-Phase 2 002.jpg drawings).



If you scroll down this web site http://www.eksplorator.com/70.htm , there's another, rather rough drawing of our Rheinkind - it comes from a Polish book published in 1974, earlier than "Vojenske rakety". There obviously has to be an earlier source.
I'm not fully convinced if the ribs on the fins were actually to be protruding or depressed (they are drawn protruding in the book, but it may be a misinterpretation) - e.g. the Katyusha rockets or German 8 cm RSprgr had fins made of two symmetrical halves with depressed ribs. There were also German rockets with fins made of single sheet of metal, with two ribs, each pressed in opposite direction.

Regards

Grzesio

PS As far as Taifun specs are concerned, I've never seen two books giving the same values - e.g. Taifun F length varies from 1880 to 2100 mm.

BTW:
Do you have some measures for the Planet Phase 2_01 & _02 cgi of yours that you used?
I'm thinking of building it as a scalemodel.

regards
 

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I know this is about Rheinkind, not Feuerlilie, but since the latter was also mentioned, here is a pic of the Feuerlilie 25 from Science & Vie #341 (February 1946).

I'm also enclosing the Rheintochter R-1 from that same issue, the Wasserfall, the X-4, the Messerschmitt Enzian E-1, the Junkers Schmetterling, the Henschel Hs 298 and the Blohm & Voss BV 226.

All dated artwork I guess, but pleasant nonetheless.
 

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Wurger

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Very nice images, but the "Wasserfall" is in fact the "Echt", and the "Schmetterling" isn`t a Junkers design but Henschel`s.
 

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Hecht additional info
 

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Justo Miranda

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Feuerlilie pics-post-2
 

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Feuerlilie drawings-post-2
 

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Wasp

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Awesome material guys!

Didn't knew the Hecht was built as well (just added it to the list of scale models to be build ;).

Btw; as we are right know with the Feuerlilie:
Does anyone has some additional info on the test model F4,4?
It's said that it was a scaled down F25 with a diameter 4,4cm to quicly test the general flight characteristics while the building of the F25 took longer than expected.
Was it really an exact replica of the F25 design or differed it in shape?
(I'm asking because the F25 and F55 do differ considerably as well)

Grzesio said:
Sadly, no data.
I think you just have to assume, 1st stage engine or/and subprojectiles are of the same size as in the closed warhead version.

I thought so, as the mainbody compared to the clusterrockets (if assumed they are the same, which should be inside the Rheinkind) seems exactly to be the engine part of the Rheinkind Entwurf with a simple cap put on top. Well, let's see, maybe I'm doing that version as well (if I manage to fiddle 12 of these Mini-Rheinkinder together in 1:72 :eek: ).
 

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omg, i off during weekend, come back and find this Info B)

big THX to Justo Miranda & Stargazer2006 ;D
 

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Thanks for all the help so far.

Although this is not the modellers section, here, as a small token of my gratitude, a picture of the Feuerlilie F25 and F4,4 as 1:72 models I was able to realize thanks to the information you all provided.

The F4,4 is based on the first design of the F25 and it is huge 3,56 mm long in 1:72. ;D
 

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