General Dynamics F-16/79

SK2 said:
The ROCAF had concern with performance of the J79 version, however they still proceed with support of General Dynamics (with brochures of ROCAF flagged F-16/79). It did not materialize due to Carter Administration defined all versions of F-16 as offensive weapon.
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Which then led to them getting the F-CK-1 which is very heavily based on F16 in the forward fuselage.
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
It was a deliberate downgrading of the F-16, which would only have worked if the F100 engined version remained unavailable for export. Once controls on the original version were relaxed it was dead in the water. It would have been a little cheaper to buy, but worse in every other respect.
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If I remember well, it was made to counter F20 Tigershark, with a marginal only cost reduction, but more than marginal capacity reduction.
USAF decided not to order any of them, satisfied as they were with legacy F16.
 
NMaude said:
I wonder if Taiwan would've considered the F-16/79?
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Chiang Ching-Kuo, the then-president of the ROC, instructed the ROCAF to order 150 F-16/79s and 150 F-20s believing that it would be the last time the ROC would be buying big-ticket items from the US. While the ROCAF definitely sought after their improved performance over the F-104G and F-5E, what was also the aim of the purchase is the acquisition of the AIM-7 Sparrow...... which is also the reason why Reagan ultimately did not approve the sale.

(The US ultimately planned to export the AIM-7M to the PLAAF as the long-term goal of the latter's Peace Pearl project. During the definition phase of what the F-CK-1 needs to be, it was tacitly accepted that the F-16A would be among PLAAF's 21st-century lineup...... then again no-one saw 1989 coming.)

The Indigenous Defense Fighter project was originally thought of as the replacement of the F-16/79 and F-20. The failure to acquire either type meant that the IDF project had been elevated to being the alternative to them, leading to the F-CK-1. General Dynamics quickly came onboard while Northrop futilely waited for Reagan admin. to change its mind......
 
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dy031101 said:
(The US ultimately planned to export the AIM-7M to the PLAAF as the long-term goal of the latter's Peace Pearl project. During the definition phase of what the F-CK-1 needs to be, it was tacitly accepted that the F-16A would be among PLAAF's 21st-century lineup...... then again no-one saw 1989 coming.)
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I'd like to know what Class-A controlled-substance they were snorting, smoking, ingesting or injecting.
 
NMaude said:
I'd like to know what Class-A controlled-substance they were snorting, smoking, ingesting or injecting.
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"Sino"-Soviet Split

The US essentially outsourced a big chunk of Soviet containment job in East Asia to CCP. I'm sure it sounded like a bargain to the Americans at the time.
 
And now we are selling F-16s to Vietnam... To contain China!

Would have been interesting to see Taiwanese F-20s going up against Chinese F-16/79s
 
Desertfox said:
And now we are selling F-16s to Vietnam... To contain China!

Would have been interesting to see Taiwanese F-20s going up against Chinese F-16/79s
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the Vietnam deal hasn't been finalized and has since stalled. Since Vietnam is one of those countries that tends to get linked to all kinds of supposed deals (Su-57s, Su-35, Rafale, F-16s, etc), I'll believe it once it leaves the factory in VPAF paint.
 
Any idea what radar was supposed to be in F-16/79?

Speaking of inhaling substances, makes one wonder what were they thinking when they went to the trouble to put the J-79 in F-16 for export, while the F-20 aimed at the same requirement used the then brand new state of the art F-404.

F-16/79 was America's MiG-23MS i guess.
 
I got in a little trouble "back in the day" for sending a letter to AW&ST suggesting that rather than the J79, it would make far more sense to use Allison's propose, and tested, afterburning TF41. Allison called me to confirm that I had no cconnection with them as GD-Fort Worth had accused them of planting the letter.
 
Desertfox said:
And now we are selling F-16s to Vietnam... To contain China!

Would have been interesting to see Taiwanese F-20s going up against Chinese F-16/79s
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I hope you have your own connections to Hollywood's: I would definitively pay to see that on screen!
 
Desertfox said:
And now we are selling F-16s to Vietnam... To contain China!

Would have been interesting to see Taiwanese F-20s going up against Chinese F-16/79s
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I'm not complaining about the real-life, but as I am one of the more deranged types and do have a soft spot for the Meh-Falcon as well as obscure F-16 upgrade programmes, I've been dreaming of ROCAF F-16/79 Falcon ONE v.s. PLAAF F-16A Falcon ACE

Kinda a whole-plot reference of how PLAAF liked to show off their MiG-17s in front of ROCAF F-86s not knowing the Sabres have Sidewinders lol
 
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Oh and that remind me of an issue with my dream......

F-16A for PLAAF likely means no APG-66 for the ROC (outside of heavy modification like W-160 naval FCR; IRL Peace Pearl chose APG-66 partially because APG-67 was eliminated from consideration for being the basis of F-CK-1's GD-53 radar).

And APG-65, as capable as it is, is (saying it as politely as I can) ugly on the F-16......

How difficult would it have been to adapt APG-67 for use with the F-16? Was there any other alternative to APG-66 and APG-65 for the F-16/79?

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I am under the impression that, with the notional F-16-optimized APG-67 FIR (Fighter-Interceptor Radar), ROCAF F-16/79s actually have a radar advantage over PLAAF F-16As' APG-66A.

However, ROCAF F-16/79s and F-20s were initially armed with AIM-9P4 and the last production batch of AIM-7F while PLAAF F-16As had AIM-9L and AIM-7M.

The ROCAF was upgunned to AIM-9M and AIM-7P in late 1990s. The AIM-7Fs were converted into RIM-7Fs to replenish ordnances for airfield defense units' Skyguard systems, to be superseded by converted RIM-7Ps when AIM-120 became standard for ROCAF F-16/79s and F-20s.

ROCAF F-20s replaced the F-5E/Fs and use LITE combo targeting-sensors/fuel tank for ground attack missions; the F-16/79s replaced the F-104Gs as interceptors.

Later, Falcon ONE upgrade jointly worked on by ST Aero and AIDC might not involve radar replacement for ROCAF F-16/79s but still includes new mission computer, glass cockpit, weapon delivery & navigation system, US-supplied AIM-120, and/or AIFF.

PLAAF F-16As' Falcon ACE upgrade is as per IRL offering, including Derby BVRAAM.

Comments & suggestions are welcomed.
 
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elmayerle said:
I got in a little trouble "back in the day" for sending a letter to AW&ST suggesting that rather than the J79, it would make far more sense to use Allison's propose, and tested, afterburning TF41.
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A TF41-engined F-16 is intriguing but probably wouldn't have easily fitted into the FMS system, being licensed from RR.

The J79 was widespread, easily supported, well understood and didn't have any export strings attached.

Edit: plus, of course, the fact that the J79 impaired performance, range and payload so much was seen as a positive restriction for the export market. And GE stumped-up half the development cost, something Allison probably couldn't afford.
 
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Kiltonge said:
A TF41-engined F-16 is intriguing but probably wouldn't have easily fitted into the FMS system, being licensed from RR.

The J79 was widespread, easily supported, well understood and didn't have any export strings attached.

Edit: plus, of course, the fact that the J79 impaired performance, range and payload so much was seen as a positive restriction for the export market. And GE stumped-up half the development cost, something Allison probably couldn't afford.
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Allsion had already done the major portion of the development work on the afterburning TF41 in the late 1960's (remaining would be definitive fit to airframe)IIRC, there was a 1967 article in AW&ST, GIven that the PRC had already purchased rights to the SPey, includingthe afterburning version, the Allison engine would seem a natural fit for Taiwan.
 
elmayerle said:
I got in a little trouble "back in the day" for sending a letter to AW&ST suggesting that rather than the J79, it would make far more sense to use Allison's propose, and tested, afterburning TF41.
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Curiosity: what was changed from the Spey on TF41?

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Would it have been as easy to modify the air inlet structure of the F-16/79, provided the US government bothers approving such modification, to allow for targeting pod hardpoints as the Block 10 F-16 for the MLU programme? Or would emulating the practice of Gulf War A-10 pilots with IIR AGM-65 seeker heads be more realistic for nighttime ground attack ?

EDIT: A re-visit at this entire thread has led me to conclude that production F-16/79 would have inlet chin hardpoints and big tails.
 
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lancer21 said:
Any idea what radar was supposed to be in F-16/79?
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For countries without political baggage or specific need, it almost certainly would have been baseline APG-66 merely with reduced air-to-ground modes.
 
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