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French Space Rocket question

Michel Van

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hello to all French member of Forum.

I need Info to French unbuild space rockets.

Wat LH2/LOX Engine were developpent in France in 1960s
and why they stop this all in 1968 ?

les DIAMANT
next to Diamant-A was Diamant-B

but was is with those ?
Super Diamant (L-17 and P-17)
Hyper Diamant (4 stage solidfuel P16, P10, P2 and P1 payload 55 kg in GEO)
in German space flight book of 1960s
stand of something of Diamant Hydrogene (a Diamant Rocket with LH2/Lox Upper stage )
real Plan or German miss translation ?

BLACK Diamant
a Diamant-B stage L-17 with English Black Arrow upper Stage !
Diamant B/C co - developpent France Germany and India
Wat was that goal and why channeled ?

LRBA project VULCAN, was this a EUROPA-1 Competitor ?
with Catherine 4 Diamant stage cluster, are this Diamant-B stage and Vexin Engine ??

SEREB project Diogène-1
Solid booster first stage, two LH2/Lox stage ? (Wat engine ?)
Diogéne-2
Three Solid booster, two LH2/Lox stage ?
was this a Diamant and Vulcan Competitor ?

Orion
in German space flight book of 1960s
stand of something of Rocket for manned French space capsule in to Orbit.
real Plan or German miss translation ?

thanks for ansewer
 

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archipeppe

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Many thanks Michel, for these very useful information (especially graphic) about the French rocket development.
Between the lines it is possible to see the upcoming Ariane family development...
 

Michel Van

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your welcome archipeppe
Between the lines it is possible to see the upcoming Ariane family development...

around 1964 France made very aggressive proposal at ELDO meting
Drop ELDO-A (EUROPA-1)and use French's LH2/Lox Engine for ELDO-B (EUROPA-3)
Stage from Diamant Hydrogen or Diogène-1 ?

but to find Info about French Rocket is hard, very hard !
you can find more about Chines , top secret Soviet Programs, USAF Secret Project
as about civilian French Programs :mad:

only good source is Capcom espace
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/ariane/index.htm
 

archipeppe

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Michel Van said:
but to find Info about French Rocket is hard, very hard !

Not only, try to find out infos aobut Italian rocketry (as you know) is even harder!!!
Infact, it is not possible to have more than a small note about ALFA IRBM, SISPRE Missile Family or San Marco Scout.

Some are still a "secret", some are still industrial sensitive and some are simply forgotten... :-(
 

Michel Van

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I bet, there were plans for big satellite launcher made in Italy

all big European contry had plans for Rockets
Germany, England, France low info, but Italy no info
 

archipeppe

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Michel Van said:
I bet, there were plans for big satellite launcher made in Italy

Dear Michel, I really don't know if there were plans for "big launcher", for sure existed plans for satellite launcher as well (e.g. San Marco Scout, but it may not be the only one).

Michel Van said:
all big European contry had plans for Rockets
Germany, England, France low info, but Italy no info

I absolutely agree, it is easier find out almost everything about German space WWII plans than more of small description about French and Italian project of '60s and '70s....
 

Jos Heyman

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I have attached some diagrams and tables that appeared in the BIS Spaceflight journal sometime in the 1980s. They are by a French guy named B. Gire.
As far as the Italian efforts are concerned, it seem they were limited to Scout class or launch vehicles.
 

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Michel Van

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YEEESSSSSSSS this is Xmas and birthday on same day ;D ;D ;D

i don't belief it wat i see :D

the Advance Diamant first stage looks like Black Arrow
but is a Cora (better know as Corallie second stage Europa 1-2)
the only thing that survived that program was Black Arrow payload fairing for Diamant BP4 serie.
(Black Arrow payload 73 kg the Black Diamant payload 250 Kg)

Hyper Diamant, L-433 is Military MRBM hardware
that explane why none of these made to civilian Launcher for CNES

but Big surprise is VULCIAN series
the SUPERVULCIAN that must be this ORION Launcher from German space book

many Thanks Jos Heyman
 

Barrington Bond

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Will Edit and put a caption later...

done...

“Though France lacks funds for space research, it is not short of brains and vision as is shown by the three designs for semi-heavy and heavy space launchers exhibited at the Aeronautics and Space Exhibition in 1967. From left to right: the Hyper Diamant, characterised by its four small boosters each containing 660 lb of powder and its nose-cap of the so-called hammerhead form; the Diogenes 2 with P-10 boosters fitted back to back as in the Titan 3C; and finally the Vulcan, with a Catherine first stage, Coralie second stage and P-4 or H-3-5 third stage.Diogenes 2 and Vulcan are launcher projects of the Europa 1 and 2 type, which means that they have little chance of seeing the light while the European countries pursue a common effort for the conquest of space. Hyper-Diamant and Diogenes 2 are SEREB projects, Vulcan a proposal by LRBA of Vernon.”

Page 814


The Encyclopedia of Space (SBN: 600012050) translated from La Grande Adventure de l’Espace: Les Editions Rombaldi, Paris
 

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archipeppe

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Thanks a lot Jos!!
You filled some empty space in the history of French rocketry.
 

Michel Van

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Barrington Bond said:
Will Edit and put a caption later...

cool a cutaway Model of VULCAIN

little calculation about Black Diamant

model with Cora L-10 as First Stage
11894 kg First stage Cora L-10
97 kg interstage
3439 kg second stage Black Arrow stage 2
807 kg third stage P.68 (used in EUROPA-2 Rocket)
250 kg payload
63 kg Fairing
-------------------------
16550 kg Launch mass,
I get a delta V of 8301,32 m/s2
very low to get 250 kg in stable Orbit

a Black Damant with L-17 (Diamant-B) work better
would same like Diamant B-P4 performance
 

Michel Van

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Thanks Barrington Bond
is this from the book "The Encyclopedia of Space" ?

the Scan show
how nice LBRA solve the Tank Cluster Trust transverse to second stage stuctur.
each tank has trust structur how connect to 2 Ring in innerstage.



the VULCAIN first stage Catherine on display (with out Aerodynamic cover)
source http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/ariane/espace_francais/


is VULCAIN project drop for EUROPA-3 aka Ariane-1 rocket ?
or is VULCAIN study part of L3S concept, to say the grand grandfather of Ariane-1 ?
 

Archibald

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Diamant B/C co - developpent France Germany and India

It seems that the CNES worked closely with India over the years.

- First there's the mysterious Diamant B proposal to India
- I've also found two Centaure sounding-rocket launches for India between 1970 and 1972 (astronautix)
Edited - And much, much, more : it seems the program lasted from 1965 to 1980! -
- And, last but not least, PSLV and GSLV Vikas engines are Vikings build under licence.
 

Michel Van

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that Rocket Had to be Black Diamant (French, English, German and India)
Cora, Black Arrow, German high energy stage ? India
(launch from India ?)

after Ariane 4 program was shot down for Ariane 5
most hardware end up in India !

The GSLV uses four L40 liquid strap-on boosters similar to Ariane 4 boosters
the GSLV III has 2 Vikas engines (aka Viking engines from Ariane 4)

picture source http://www.russianspaceweb.com/ila2008/index.htm
 

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Archibald

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Flight Global archive is my friend!! :D

I've made a search using one of the various names of Diamant derivatives (notably supervulcain B)

Result was a nice article http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968%20-%200795.html

Btw I've also found more datas about the Anglo-Germano-Indian-French Diamant B/C.

Flight global mention it briefly when talking about Diamant BP4 go-ahead (circa 1972)

In announcing the plan CNES has pointed out that it is
in no way connected with the launch failure last December
resulting from a second-stage fault. The plan has in fact
been one of three under consideration for about 18 months.
The other two envisaged international co-operation.

Of these two concepts, one included provision by India
of a fourth stage and by Germany of new equipment bay
and, ultimately, a fifth stage. The P.4 second stage was to
be used and Black Arrow fairings were to be bought from
the UK. The launcher was to be designated Diamant-B/C
(for co-operation). The four-stage vehicle would have been
capable of placing 5301b, 240kg into 300-mile Equatorial
orbit.
The other concept was named Black-Diamant and proposed
replacing the second stage with that of Black Arrow,
also using Black Arrow fairings. As a three-stage vehicle
this offered a capability of placing 4191b, 190kg into a
similar orbit. This could be uprated by application of the
-B/C plan.
 

Archibald

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By the way the four-engine catherine posted here was a mockup build in 1966.
It seems that the project was studied to replace Blue Streak for Europa.
 

Michel Van

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Archibald said:
By the way the four-engine catherine posted here was a mockup build in 1966.
It seems that the project was studied to replace Blue Streak for Europa.

yes the Vulcain 1 was a proposal to replace the Europa 1 in 1968/69
(in that time UK wanted to quit and German Stage explode in flight.)

Nord Aviation proposed a Cluster of 7 L-17 Diamant B first stage to replace Blue streak in 1968.

source Flight Global
 

Michel Van

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on http://www.russianspaceweb.com/rockets_france.html
i found this list of France launch rocket project

Source:
Serra, J.-J., In personal communication with Anatoly Zak


Name /version/ Info about rocket from this forum
Diamant A/B/BP4
Regent All Solid stage rocket, 400 kg in LEO
Carmen 2 stage rocket with Liquid fuel 600 kg in LEO
Vulcain C/P/H 3 stage rocket payload around 1050 kg in LEO
Bacchus bigger version of Vulcain payload 2800 kg in LEO
Diogène 1/2 Soild rocket with Lox/Lh2 upper stage, Payload 2000 kg in LEO
Turquoise C/H like Diogène rocket, payload 1300-2500 kg in LEO
Orion
Mercure


Got someone more info about french Orion and Mercure rockets ?
 

cardonet

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Michel Van said:
on http://www.russianspaceweb.com/rockets_france.html
i found this list of France launch rocket project

Source:
Serra, J.-J., In personal communication with Anatoly Zak


Name /version/ Info about rocket from this forum
Diamant A/B/BP4
Regent All Solid stage rocket, 400 kg in LEO
Carmen 2 stage rocket with Liquid fuel 600 kg in LEO
Vulcain C/P/H 3 stage rocket payload around 1050 kg in LEO
Bacchus bigger version of Vulcain payload 2800 kg in LEO
Diogène 1/2 Soild rocket with Lox/Lh2 upper stage, Payload 2000 kg in LEO
Turquoise C/H like Diogène rocket, payload 1300-2500 kg in LEO
Orion
Mercure


Got someone more info about french Orion and Mercure rockets ?
Mercure was the generic name for a series of projects based on a 2.5 m diameter first stage powered by 5 Vexin engines (140 t thrust).
Mercure A was to use a Coralie second stage and a H3.5 cryogenic upper stage.
Mercure B was to use 2 cryogenic upper stages (H11.5 and H4.5)
Mercure C was be a 2-stage launcher with a liquid-fuel 2nd stage (13 t propellant)
Another version was to use 2 solid upper stages (P10 & P4)
Orion was to be a 2-stage launcher: P30 + H7
 

cardonet

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Michel Van said:
THX for the Info, Cardonet :)


You're welcome. In 2007, you asked
"Diamant B/C co - developpent France Germany and India"
Germany was to provide the equipement bay and the ground control system. India was to provide the 4th stage... that became the SLV-3 4th stage (see: "Reach for the stars, the evolution of India's rocket programme" by Gopal Raj, 2000)
 

cardonet

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Michel Van said:
hello to all French member of Forum.

I need Info to French unbuild space rockets.

Wat LH2/LOX Engine were developpent in France in 1960s
and why they stop this all in 1968 ?

Excerpt from "Evolution of Liquid Rocket Propulsion in France in the Last 50 Years", J. Villain, IAC, 1989


Additional information :
Diamant-Hydrogene was to be Emeraude + stage with H2 engine + stage with H3 engine
Later replaced by
Diogene 1 : P16 + P10 + H3.5
Diogene 2 : P40 + P10 + H3.5
H3.5, also named Onyx (another gemstone), was to use an HM4 engine.
 

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Grey Havoc

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http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7919.0.html
 

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