French Space Rocket question

Michel Van

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hello to all French member of Forum.

I need Info to French unbuild space rockets.

Wat LH2/LOX Engine were developpent in France in 1960s
and why they stop this all in 1968 ?

les DIAMANT
next to Diamant-A was Diamant-B

but was is with those ?
Super Diamant (L-17 and P-17)
Hyper Diamant (4 stage solidfuel P16, P10, P2 and P1 payload 55 kg in GEO)
in German space flight book of 1960s
stand of something of Diamant Hydrogene (a Diamant Rocket with LH2/Lox Upper stage )
real Plan or German miss translation ?

BLACK Diamant
a Diamant-B stage L-17 with English Black Arrow upper Stage !
Diamant B/C co - developpent France Germany and India
Wat was that goal and why channeled ?

LRBA project VULCAN, was this a EUROPA-1 Competitor ?
with Catherine 4 Diamant stage cluster, are this Diamant-B stage and Vexin Engine ??

SEREB project Diogène-1
Solid booster first stage, two LH2/Lox stage ? (Wat engine ?)
Diogéne-2
Three Solid booster, two LH2/Lox stage ?
was this a Diamant and Vulcan Competitor ?

Orion
in German space flight book of 1960s
stand of something of Rocket for manned French space capsule in to Orbit.
real Plan or German miss translation ?

thanks for ansewer
 

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Many thanks Michel, for these very useful information (especially graphic) about the French rocket development.
Between the lines it is possible to see the upcoming Ariane family development...
 
your welcome archipeppe
Between the lines it is possible to see the upcoming Ariane family development...

around 1964 France made very aggressive proposal at ELDO meting
Drop ELDO-A (EUROPA-1)and use French's LH2/Lox Engine for ELDO-B (EUROPA-3)
Stage from Diamant Hydrogen or Diogène-1 ?

but to find Info about French Rocket is hard, very hard !
you can find more about Chines , top secret Soviet Programs, USAF Secret Project
as about civilian French Programs :mad:

only good source is Capcom espace
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/ariane/index.htm
 
Michel Van said:
but to find Info about French Rocket is hard, very hard !

Not only, try to find out infos aobut Italian rocketry (as you know) is even harder!!!
Infact, it is not possible to have more than a small note about ALFA IRBM, SISPRE Missile Family or San Marco Scout.

Some are still a "secret", some are still industrial sensitive and some are simply forgotten... :-(
 
I bet, there were plans for big satellite launcher made in Italy

all big European contry had plans for Rockets
Germany, England, France low info, but Italy no info
 
Michel Van said:
I bet, there were plans for big satellite launcher made in Italy

Dear Michel, I really don't know if there were plans for "big launcher", for sure existed plans for satellite launcher as well (e.g. San Marco Scout, but it may not be the only one).

Michel Van said:
all big European contry had plans for Rockets
Germany, England, France low info, but Italy no info

I absolutely agree, it is easier find out almost everything about German space WWII plans than more of small description about French and Italian project of '60s and '70s....
 
I have attached some diagrams and tables that appeared in the BIS Spaceflight journal sometime in the 1980s. They are by a French guy named B. Gire.
As far as the Italian efforts are concerned, it seem they were limited to Scout class or launch vehicles.
 

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YEEESSSSSSSS this is Xmas and birthday on same day ;D ;D ;D

i don't belief it wat i see :D

the Advance Diamant first stage looks like Black Arrow
but is a Cora (better know as Corallie second stage Europa 1-2)
the only thing that survived that program was Black Arrow payload fairing for Diamant BP4 serie.
(Black Arrow payload 73 kg the Black Diamant payload 250 Kg)

Hyper Diamant, L-433 is Military MRBM hardware
that explane why none of these made to civilian Launcher for CNES

but Big surprise is VULCIAN series
the SUPERVULCIAN that must be this ORION Launcher from German space book

many Thanks Jos Heyman
 
Will Edit and put a caption later...

done...

“Though France lacks funds for space research, it is not short of brains and vision as is shown by the three designs for semi-heavy and heavy space launchers exhibited at the Aeronautics and Space Exhibition in 1967. From left to right: the Hyper Diamant, characterised by its four small boosters each containing 660 lb of powder and its nose-cap of the so-called hammerhead form; the Diogenes 2 with P-10 boosters fitted back to back as in the Titan 3C; and finally the Vulcan, with a Catherine first stage, Coralie second stage and P-4 or H-3-5 third stage.Diogenes 2 and Vulcan are launcher projects of the Europa 1 and 2 type, which means that they have little chance of seeing the light while the European countries pursue a common effort for the conquest of space. Hyper-Diamant and Diogenes 2 are SEREB projects, Vulcan a proposal by LRBA of Vernon.”

Page 814


The Encyclopedia of Space (SBN: 600012050) translated from La Grande Adventure de l’Espace: Les Editions Rombaldi, Paris
 

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Thanks a lot Jos!!
You filled some empty space in the history of French rocketry.
 
Barrington Bond said:
Will Edit and put a caption later...

cool a cutaway Model of VULCAIN

little calculation about Black Diamant

model with Cora L-10 as First Stage
11894 kg First stage Cora L-10
97 kg interstage
3439 kg second stage Black Arrow stage 2
807 kg third stage P.68 (used in EUROPA-2 Rocket)
250 kg payload
63 kg Fairing
-------------------------
16550 kg Launch mass,
I get a delta V of 8301,32 m/s2
very low to get 250 kg in stable Orbit

a Black Damant with L-17 (Diamant-B) work better
would same like Diamant B-P4 performance
 
Thanks Barrington Bond
is this from the book "The Encyclopedia of Space" ?

the Scan show
how nice LBRA solve the Tank Cluster Trust transverse to second stage stuctur.
each tank has trust structur how connect to 2 Ring in innerstage.

1967%20projet%20catherine.jpg

projet%201966%20etage%20catherine.jpg

the VULCAIN first stage Catherine on display (with out Aerodynamic cover)
source http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/ariane/espace_francais/


is VULCAIN project drop for EUROPA-3 aka Ariane-1 rocket ?
or is VULCAIN study part of L3S concept, to say the grand grandfather of Ariane-1 ?
 

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Diamant B/C co - developpent France Germany and India

It seems that the CNES worked closely with India over the years.

- First there's the mysterious Diamant B proposal to India
- I've also found two Centaure sounding-rocket launches for India between 1970 and 1972 (astronautix)
Edited - And much, much, more : it seems the program lasted from 1965 to 1980! -
- And, last but not least, PSLV and GSLV Vikas engines are Vikings build under licence.
 
that Rocket Had to be Black Diamant (French, English, German and India)
Cora, Black Arrow, German high energy stage ? India
(launch from India ?)

after Ariane 4 program was shot down for Ariane 5
most hardware end up in India !

The GSLV uses four L40 liquid strap-on boosters similar to Ariane 4 boosters
the GSLV III has 2 Vikas engines (aka Viking engines from Ariane 4)

picture source http://www.russianspaceweb.com/ila2008/index.htm
 

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Flight Global archive is my friend!! :D

I've made a search using one of the various names of Diamant derivatives (notably supervulcain B)

Result was a nice article http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968%20-%200795.html

Btw I've also found more datas about the Anglo-Germano-Indian-French Diamant B/C.

Flight global mention it briefly when talking about Diamant BP4 go-ahead (circa 1972)

In announcing the plan CNES has pointed out that it is
in no way connected with the launch failure last December
resulting from a second-stage fault. The plan has in fact
been one of three under consideration for about 18 months.
The other two envisaged international co-operation.

Of these two concepts, one included provision by India
of a fourth stage and by Germany of new equipment bay
and, ultimately, a fifth stage. The P.4 second stage was to
be used and Black Arrow fairings were to be bought from
the UK. The launcher was to be designated Diamant-B/C
(for co-operation). The four-stage vehicle would have been
capable of placing 5301b, 240kg into 300-mile Equatorial
orbit.
The other concept was named Black-Diamant and proposed
replacing the second stage with that of Black Arrow,
also using Black Arrow fairings. As a three-stage vehicle
this offered a capability of placing 4191b, 190kg into a
similar orbit. This could be uprated by application of the
-B/C plan.
 
By the way the four-engine catherine posted here was a mockup build in 1966.
It seems that the project was studied to replace Blue Streak for Europa.
 
Archibald said:
By the way the four-engine catherine posted here was a mockup build in 1966.
It seems that the project was studied to replace Blue Streak for Europa.

yes the Vulcain 1 was a proposal to replace the Europa 1 in 1968/69
(in that time UK wanted to quit and German Stage explode in flight.)

Nord Aviation proposed a Cluster of 7 L-17 Diamant B first stage to replace Blue streak in 1968.

source Flight Global
 
on http://www.russianspaceweb.com/rockets_france.html
i found this list of France launch rocket project

Source:
Serra, J.-J., In personal communication with Anatoly Zak


Name /version/ Info about rocket from this forum
Diamant A/B/BP4
Regent All Solid stage rocket, 400 kg in LEO
Carmen 2 stage rocket with Liquid fuel 600 kg in LEO
Vulcain C/P/H 3 stage rocket payload around 1050 kg in LEO
Bacchus bigger version of Vulcain payload 2800 kg in LEO
Diogène 1/2 Soild rocket with Lox/Lh2 upper stage, Payload 2000 kg in LEO
Turquoise C/H like Diogène rocket, payload 1300-2500 kg in LEO
Orion
Mercure


Got someone more info about french Orion and Mercure rockets ?
 
Michel Van said:
on http://www.russianspaceweb.com/rockets_france.html
i found this list of France launch rocket project

Source:
Serra, J.-J., In personal communication with Anatoly Zak


Name /version/ Info about rocket from this forum
Diamant A/B/BP4
Regent All Solid stage rocket, 400 kg in LEO
Carmen 2 stage rocket with Liquid fuel 600 kg in LEO
Vulcain C/P/H 3 stage rocket payload around 1050 kg in LEO
Bacchus bigger version of Vulcain payload 2800 kg in LEO
Diogène 1/2 Soild rocket with Lox/Lh2 upper stage, Payload 2000 kg in LEO
Turquoise C/H like Diogène rocket, payload 1300-2500 kg in LEO
Orion
Mercure


Got someone more info about french Orion and Mercure rockets ?
Mercure was the generic name for a series of projects based on a 2.5 m diameter first stage powered by 5 Vexin engines (140 t thrust).
Mercure A was to use a Coralie second stage and a H3.5 cryogenic upper stage.
Mercure B was to use 2 cryogenic upper stages (H11.5 and H4.5)
Mercure C was be a 2-stage launcher with a liquid-fuel 2nd stage (13 t propellant)
Another version was to use 2 solid upper stages (P10 & P4)
Orion was to be a 2-stage launcher: P30 + H7
 
Michel Van said:
THX for the Info, Cardonet :)


You're welcome. In 2007, you asked
"Diamant B/C co - developpent France Germany and India"
Germany was to provide the equipement bay and the ground control system. India was to provide the 4th stage... that became the SLV-3 4th stage (see: "Reach for the stars, the evolution of India's rocket programme" by Gopal Raj, 2000)
 
Michel Van said:
hello to all French member of Forum.

I need Info to French unbuild space rockets.

Wat LH2/LOX Engine were developpent in France in 1960s
and why they stop this all in 1968 ?

Excerpt from "Evolution of Liquid Rocket Propulsion in France in the Last 50 Years", J. Villain, IAC, 1989


Additional information :
Diamant-Hydrogene was to be Emeraude + stage with H2 engine + stage with H3 engine
Later replaced by
Diogene 1 : P16 + P10 + H3.5
Diogene 2 : P40 + P10 + H3.5
H3.5, also named Onyx (another gemstone), was to use an HM4 engine.
 

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Nothing really new, but some interesting excerpt from Hervé Moulin's 2017 book "La construction d'une politique spatiale en France 1945-1975" a very dense (and expensive; 200€! ) 700 pages book; the kind that spends whole chapters explaining every budget political decision behind the french space program, I'll try scanning it when i've got the time.

1963-64 CNES Plan for space exploration, based on the supposed development of a P30 booster stage for the army (? missile were not that heavy until the M51, there was a 30 tons solid missile plan but that was in ~1960)



1) Use of Diamant and Régent for exploration missions with 80-200kg satellites et for applied use (weather observation, telecoms)
2) Beginning from 1967; use of the ELDO launcher (proto-Europa) for deep space exploration, particularly circumlunar missions. 1 t in low polar orbit; 100 km to C3=0
3) Beginning from 1972; use of Orion for lunar surface exploration using an automatic lander; deep space missions.

Starting from 1968, there would be one circumlunar mission per year, with a landing in 1973; Also considered were a weather observation satellite to launch in 1967 on Diamant, and a 100kg comsat prototype to launch in 1968-1969 on a national Diamant successor.

The ideas were to develop launchers using Solid Propulsion and Cryogenic propulsion.

Regent would use the 35 tons heavy P30 (30 tons of solid fuel), the P4 RITA and "P1 identical to Diamant's" (I guess P0.64);
P30 was planned for 1967 and test launches were planned for 1968; It could launch 300 kg and be used for different orbits.
The plan recommanded pursuing LH2/LO2 propulsion and required the continuation of Diamant-Hydrogen (Diogene 1). H1 stage was planned for 1965; H2 for 1967 (both could be flight tested on Diogene-1); In 1966 H7 development would be started with a HM6 engine, with flight tests planned for 1970.

Orion would be made of a 3*P30; a H30 S2 using 6*HM6 engines and a third H7 stage using a single HM6. Development would start in 1968 with a planned first launch in 1972-1973.

There is an additional chart in the linked picture (Liberation = C3=0; L3 and L4 launchers were optional transition launchers)
Launchers.PNG


Since this was after Algeria's independence but before the choice of Kourou, the launch site wasn't certain. The larger launchers couldn't launch from Roussillon (fifth picture) so Regent was studied to launch from the Landes. Oversea Regent launches were still considered starting from 1969

Pierre Messmer (Minister of the armies) comments: "This is an Appealing plan that I gladly support. But it is expensive and I fear it will be more so than the estimates. One must find an agreement with the government for its funding. This agreement will not be easy to strike"

Conclusion of the author: "the 1964 CNES Proposal is interesting for several reasons. Crewed flights are immediatly dismissed, Rivalry with the USA and USSR could not be considered. The plan was rather realistic for LEO scientific exploration*, but optimistic for deep space exploration, and was based on an incorrect analysis of european and american intent" "This plan proposes the development of applied science satellites and tie them to launcher development. It also includes indicators that would become the basis of other projects. However this very French-centered vision will have to take the parallel ELDO activities and requirements into account"



*I did not take a picture of the pages describing it in detail.


This book has A LOT of informations... Interestingly Tournesol and Aura were first considered to be launched on Scouts from Kourou!


Launchers2.jpg

"Exemples of post-Diamant B pre-studies" (Developpement sans essai vol = development cost without in-flight tests; Unitaire sans aléas = Nominal unit cost; Allongé = Stretched, costs are in Millions of Francs )

Launcher3.jpg
 

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2) Beginning from 1967; use of the ELDO launcher (proto-Europa) for deep space exploration, particularly circumlunar missions. 1 t in low polar orbit; 100 km to C3=0
3) Beginning from 1972; use of Orion for lunar surface exploration using an automatic lander; deep space missions.

And there, De Gaulle trip to Baikonur in 1966 and cooperation with USSR steps in. ROSEAU was a major satellite program to be done with the Soviets but fell apart after Mai 68 social crisis and the ensuing, costly (but all too necessary) social expenses that followed.

The alternative to ROSEAU (not taken by CNES) was a Soviet-French robotic lunar orbiter. I have Le Monde newspaper excerpts discussing the amazing project, before and after Mai 68.

Conclusion of the author: "the 1964 CNES Proposal is interesting for several reasons. Crewed flights are immediatly dismissed, Rivalry with the USA and USSR could not be considered. The plan was rather realistic for LEO scientific exploration*, but optimistic for deep space exploration, and was based on an incorrect analysis of european and american intent" "This plan proposes the development of applied science satellites and tie them to launcher development. It also includes indicators that would become the basis of other projects. However this very French-centered vision will have to take the parallel ELDO activities and requirements into account"

Unfortunately, his realism is right on the mark. France had limited resources and lot of budget-expensive committments.
I once checked La Force de Frappe vs Concorde versus Apollo respective costs in dollars.
Concorde: $2 billion
FDF: $10 billion
Apollo: $24 billion+

So France, a medium power, spent half the cost of Apollo (by mightly rich United States) on Force de Frappe. It was a colossal financial effort on the military front... which also had to fund NATO committments (even after 1966) and the bloody Algerian war until 1962.

De Gaulle had drawn a red line for the military budget: 3% of the GDP. Nowadays it is slightly below 2%.


Keeping that 3% GDP target was a major strain on the country overall budget but there was no other way around. This was the height of Cold War with the Soviets only half a Germany away and De Gaulle having only disdain for NATO ability to defend West Germany before they hit our border on the Rhine, and then - nuclear endgame, better dead than red.
So: nuclear weapons plus the sea, air and land conventional forces - even if the latter started suffering right from 1958 with money being raided from conventional weapons and poured into nuclear weaponry.

Plus WWII devastation repairs;, decolonization; infrastructures modernizations (from nuclear powerplants to high speed rail, highways, and so many others areas).
 
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OMG i'm in Heaven

Some note the seven L-17 with Coralie and Astris and P1
was consider as replacement for ELDO1 (Europa 1)
As the British got funny in there heads and rehearse BREXIT with ELDO...

In 1961/1962 French Government look for alternative launch sites.

1962, a CNES report proposed Bouaké, located in the Ivory Coast, 300 km north of Abidjan,
because it has good prospects both from a scientific and logistical point of view.

CNES then initiated discussions with the European Preparatory Commission for Space Research (COPERS)
as well as with the Ministry of Cooperation. The first contacts being not very encouraging, this project was abandoned
Two other possibilities are then sought, a site in Metropolitan France and an equatorial site other than the Ivory Coast.
studies for a launch area in Leucate near Perpignan and La Nouvelle pond near Narbonne, but it was not adopted.
but Roussillon was consider as launch site later

Then French look into 14 equatorial site for Launch side in 1963s

The Seychelles archipelago (Latitude 4°37' Sud ; longitude: 55°27' East) :
rejected - unable to build 3000 meter runway

Trinity Island - Trinidad - (Latitude 10° 05' à 10° 50' Nord ; longitude: 60°55' à 61°55' East)
rejected - no launch corridor north, unstable political situation in Trinidad during 1960s

The island of Nuku-Hiva Hiva - Marquesas archipelago, French Polynesia - (8° 55' South; 142°23' West)
Favorable site, but not selected due to the impossibility of building a runway of 3000 m.

The Touamotu Archipelago - Island of Rairoa, French Polynesia - (Latitude15°00 South and 18° 26' South; 147'38 West)
Suitable site but not chosen because of the distance from Europe ( 20,000 km),
there cyclones and the total absence of fresh water on the atolls

The island of La Désirade - French West Indies - (Latitude16° 20 'North; longitude: 61°02' West)
Suitable site but not chosen because of the Hurricans, the insufficient size of the island, the absence of airfield and port.

The island of Marie-Galante - French West Indies - (latitude: 15° 33' North; longitude: 61°13' West)
Site rejected because it is impossible to launch towards the North (Guadeloupe at 40 km),
also of the Hurricans and the absence of a port and airport.

Cayenne - French Guiana - (Latitude 4°50' North; Longitude 53° West):
Very favorable site. The only significant drawback is the low capacity of the port of Cayenne,
which can however be easily compensated for by installing an unloading device at the Iles du Salut,
located about 15 km away or by improving the port facilities.
Ambient humidity will require very serious precautions for the conservation of the material but is not considered a major drawback.

Djibouti - French Somali Coast - (latitude: 11° 35' North; longitude: 43°08' East):
Very valid site but not retained because of security problems, do great political instability in area.

Mogadisque - Republic of Somalia - (latitude: 02°02' North; longitude: 45°21' East):
Excellent location in relation to the equator but not taken because it presents great political instability.

Port-Etienne - Islamic Republic of Mauritania - (latitude: 20°55' North; longitude: 17°03' West):
Very attractive site but not retained because it presents a great political instability.

Darwin - Australia - (latitude: 12°28' south; longitude: 130°51' East)
Attractive sites but not selected due, The great distance from Europe, lack of any Infrastructur and the existence of cyclones.

Trincomale - Ceylon -(latitude -: 8° 35' North; longitude: 81°15' East:)
Suitable site but not selected due to the distance from Europe, the existence of cyclones,
the large population and the uncertain political regime.

Fort Dauphin - Malagasy Republic - (latitude: 25° 02' South; longitude: 47°00' East):
Very suitable site but too far from the equator and requiring the construction of a deep water port and the improvement of the airfield.

Belem - Brazil - (latitude: 1°27' South; longitude: 48°30' East):
Very suitable site but not selected due to bad weather, rather delicate close security,
linguistic difficulties created by the use of Portuguese, and the risk of political instability.
(note in 1964 happen military putsch in Brazil)

You notice that list not mention Kourou but Cayenne in French Guiana.
After looking in all options French Guiana was consider ideal for France launch site
near equator, part of France and easy access (no crossing Panama or suez Cannel) and infrastructure in place.
General Aubinière, Director General of CNES, carried out a reconnaissance by fly along the coast, by helicopter,
from Cayenne to Saint-Laurent-du-Maroni.

February 6, 1964, Pierre Chiquet submitted a report in which he compared the merits of Roussillon and french Guyana
for the establishment of a French space base.
The location of the Roussillon launch area (43° north latitude) extends over a coastal strip 500 m to one km wide and 10 km long, oriented north-south between Leucate and Le Barcarès.
The report destroy option of Roussillon do limitations and issue with launch corridor into inhabitant Mediterranean area.
and there was issue of budget, simply France can't afford TWO launch site, French Guiana was simpel solution.
The CNES selected Kourou as Launch site after Chiquet report.

Source:
 
Some note about French rocketry nomenclature: it is rather straightforward and still in use nowadays including Vega-C.
P stands for poudre, as in powder: solid-fuel.
L stands for liquid(e) that is: everything neither solid nor hydrogen fuel.
H (duh) is hydrogen.
The number relates to propellant mass.

Which means the H1 / H2 stages mentioned there would be minuscule cryogenic stages, not much wider than Diamant's 5 ft / 60 inch.

AFAIK the narrowest and smallest LH2 stage ever was the Japanese H-1 of the early 1980's: as it stood on a Delta core. According to Capcomespace it carried 8800 kg of hydrolox for its LE-5 engine, and wasn't wider than Delta standard 8 ft core. http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/japon/lanceurs.htm

For the sake of comparison even early Centaur A on Atlas in 1962-66 were twice as heavy and 10 ft diameter from day one. Most of the similar stages elsewhere (USSR / India, China, ESA - CNES HM-7) are not smaller / lighter than this.

By French standards, the H-1 LE-5 stage 2 would have been called heir H8.8 or H9.

There are however lower bounds related to LOX/LH2 rocket stages: because hydrogen is so voluminous and cold.
Bottom line: I don't think a H1 or H2 stage made any sense. This would explain how they shifted to H6 / H7: merely six or seven tons of hydrolox. A touch smaller than the Japanese. But Diamant L-17 was 5 ft diameter, compared to Delta H-1 8 ft and Atlas / Titan 10 ft... that's probably why a shift to Europe, ELDO, Blue Streak / Europa was unavoidable for French LH2 stage studies. Same for the British RZ-20: they wouldn't shrink if for Black Arrow, Blue Streak was the only way.
 
Hammaguir in Algeria was used for both missiles and rocket launches. While civilian rockets went to Kourou, ballistic missiles such as SLBM went to Biscarrosse. That sites sucks for orbital launches, however. Either you fire in the right direction except the stages fall over Italy and beyond; or in the opposite direction, but against Earth rotation - just like Israel's Palmachim on the other end of the Mediterranean sea... and that's disastrous.
Except SLBMs (M1 to M51) IRBM (Albion's S-3) and MRBM (Pluton, Hades) don't go into orbit so they don't care. Cherry on the cake: from Biscarrose they fired test M1 to M51 direction Kourou down under the Atlantic Ocean and... this allowed the French military to use Ariane tracking infrastructure... in reverse (kind of !).
M1 to M51 have been deliberately fired from Biscarrosse, direction Kourou: for that exact reason: tracking stations and ships included. Pretty smartass when you think about it.

(P.S thank you so much @TheKutKu I have integrated your treasure trove of infromation in my alternate space timeline. I can tell you that new KGB chairman Yuri Andropov after May 1967 really enjoyed that CNES bold space plan, even if it wasn't that realistic. The Soviets are ready to help through ROSEAU - for their own dark purpose, obviously. :cool::cool::D )
 
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Check this out what I just found:
Why France took H2 and H3 engine why abandon, why it became later HM4

That MBB HDTW starts as P111 but around 1970 they proposed to modify it to Hydrolox for ELDO B/C what became EUROPA III
the French use Term H20, the German HDTW, for one and same Engine !
oddly the text mention that H20 is syntheses from P111 with HM4 and BORD
never hear about BORD

but i found this in Encyclopedia Astronautica
P320 AKA: BORD 1.
Rocketdyne, Friedrichshafen LOx/LH2 Pressure-fed rocket engine.
BORD 1/P320 Boelkow Entwicklungen AG(Germany)/Rocketdyne Technology.
Status: Development. Date: 1966. Thrust: 129.00 kN (29,000 lbf).
Thrust (sl): 129.000 kN (29,000 lbf). Thrust (sl): 13,150 kgf.
(this link direct to german proposals to replace third stage Astris with hydrolox stage)

P111 was Bölkow Entwicklungen AG development in 1956 for ministry of Defence
This Company Bölkow Entwicklungen AG fusions with Messerschmitt AG and Blohm to MBB in 1969
 
There are however lower bounds related to LOX/LH2 rocket stages: because hydrogen is so voluminous and cold.
Bottom line: I don't think a H1 or H2 stage made any sense. This would explain how they shifted to H6 / H7: merely six or seven tons of hydrolox. A touch smaller than the Japanese. But Diamant L-17 was 5 ft diameter, compared to Delta H-1 8 ft and Atlas / Titan 10 ft... that's probably why a shift to Europe, ELDO, Blue Streak / Europa was unavoidable for French LH2 stage studies. Same for the British RZ-20: they wouldn't shrink if for Black Arrow, Blue Streak was the only way.
Yes, it seems Diamant-Hydrogene I was relatively quickly abandoned; page 322 ("Seeking Diamant A's successor")
"Engineers quickly concluded to give up on modifying the 3rd stage of Diamant; Studies proved that it would be more desirable to improve the 1st stage performances, by putting either a larger; LRBA-technologies derived liquid stage or a Solid stage developped for Strategic missiles" This is in 1965, this fits the timeline with that pdf linked saying development was stopped in 1964.
By mid-1966 none of the early Diamant A successors have a Hydrogen stage (CNES favoured the L17, the DMA (now DGA, France's military procurement agency) the P10 and P16. Worse, the LH2/LO2 propulsion research (and so the HM4, which was only months away from its first test) came very close to cancellation in the second half of 1966.
1966DiamantB.PNG
Interesting trivia "Replacing the 1st stage of Diamant-A (!) by a Solid stage P10 (from ballistic missiles) had already been considered in February 1965 after the first three failures of SEREB's Emeraude (because of Pogo oscillations, ONERA helped with solving it); this possibility was dismissed after the success of the fourth launch"

The Seychelles archipelago (Latitude 4°37' Sud ; longitude: 55°27' East) :
rejected - unable to build 3000 meter runway


Source:

Interestingly, the Seychelles as a launch site was separately proposed by the British (at the start of ELDO in the early 60s) and the Italians (1966, with a platform like san marco).

(P.S thank you so much @TheKutKu I have integrated your treasure trove of infromation in my alternate space timeline. I can tell you that new KGB chairman Yuri Andropov after May 1967 really enjoyed that CNES bold space plan, even if it wasn't that realistic. The Soviets are ready to help through ROSEAU - for their own dark purpose, obviously. :cool::cool::D )
NP, glad to help. There's a whole chapter on ROSEAU in this book... I'll take a look, from what I get it was cancelled due to post-may-68 budget cuts.

This book (and a few others) give a lot of food for thought for AH, one of my favorite must be the 1946 (!) CNES proposal which would have gathered all french rocketry researches, army included, under the CNES (Centre national des engins spéciaux). This had the approval of french 'president' Bidault but was opposed by the armies notably because it was seen as a maneuvering by the communist minister of weaponry Charles Tillon.
 
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Interestingly, the Seychelles as a launch site was separately proposed by the British (at the start of ELDO in the early 60s) and the Italians (1966, with a platform like san marco).
Italian wanted ELDO launch site at coast of Kenya, The Luigi Broglio Space Center.
but there were issues, high cost to build it under current issue of ELDO.
Transport could have issue if Suez canal was closed again do war,
and also was Kourou space port operational by French, so that was taken for Europa 2 launch site.

on Roussillon there three on maps one in alps one near Marseille:
and there is Les Portes du Roussillon between Leucate and Le Barcarès
North west of seaplane base Latécoère in département Pyrénées-Orientales.
 
Interestingly, the Seychelles as a launch site was separately proposed by the British (at the start of ELDO in the early 60s) and the Italians (1966, with a platform like san marco).
Italian wanted ELDO launch site at coast of Kenya, The Luigi Broglio Space Center.
but there were issues, high cost to build it under current issue of ELDO.
Transport could have issue if Suez canal was closed again do war,
and also was Kourou space port operational by French, so that was taken for Europa 2 launch site.

on Roussillon there three on maps one in alps one near Marseille:
and there is Les Portes du Roussillon between Leucate and Le Barcarès
North west of seaplane base Latécoère in département Pyrénées-Orientales.
Yes, but Italy also considered putting San Marco platform off the Seychelles.
1679772436300.png
A History of the European Space Agency
1958 – 1987
Volume I
1679772417020.png
Readings in Astronautics and Space Operations, 1968
But either way, once it was decided, There was too much investments in kourou, and no attractive enough alternatives to change it, the In each ESRO meeting after 1966, the French put their participation to Europa on the condition it eventually launches from Kourou.

A Launch pad near Leucate would have completely concentrated the european space industry in Toulouse, both satellite and launchers, not sure if it's very healthy in the long term.
Interesting trivia (from Marius le fevre's "L'Espace, du rêve à la réalité : Un grand bon pour l'Europe spatiale ", p 124), when Guyana was chosen to succeed Hamaguir, there was a strong lobby by Guyanese interests and administration to have the spaceport built south of Cayenne, rather than north of it near Kourou, since the south was more in need of development, eventually the lack of pre-existing infrastructure made their lobbying attempt fail.
 
Check this out what I just found:
Why France took H2 and H3 engine why abandon, why it became later HM4

For details on the development history of these early cryogenic engines, I advise: "Villaroche, berceau de la cryogénie" (Villaroche, cradle of cryogenics) in "La légende d'un demi-siècle de moteurs-fusées" (The legend of half a century of rocket engines), SAFRAN, 2011, pp.72-97
 
Check this out what I just found:
Why France took H2 and H3 engine why abandon, why it became later HM4

For details on the development history of these early cryogenic engines, I advise: "Villaroche, berceau de la cryogénie" (Villaroche, cradle of cryogenics) in "La légende d'un demi-siècle de moteurs-fusées" (The legend of half a century of rocket engines), SAFRAN, 2011, pp.72-97
Sadly, this book is extremely hard to find (and only referenced a few times on the Internet). If you have any idea where one could get access to it I’d be very happy (or if you have access to it, I’d appreciate if you could share the relevant pages)
 
Check this out what I just found:
Why France took H2 and H3 engine why abandon, why it became later HM4

For details on the development history of these early cryogenic engines, I advise: "Villaroche, berceau de la cryogénie" (Villaroche, cradle of cryogenics) in "La légende d'un demi-siècle de moteurs-fusées" (The legend of half a century of rocket engines), SAFRAN, 2011, pp.72-97
Sadly, this book is extremely hard to find (and only referenced a few times on the Internet). If you have any idea where one could get access to it I’d be very happy (or if you have access to it, I’d appreciate if you could share the relevant pages)

These pages, which cover the period 1962-1970, seem the most appropriate (sorry for the poor quality of the scans)
 

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Article on the Safran archives in " L’industrie de la propulsion spatiale : état des archives conservées par Safran Aircraft Engines ". Marc Scaglione in Revue "Entreprises et Histoire , p. 212 to 221" . https://www.cairn.info/revue-entreprises-et-histoire-2021-1.htm
Here it is for those who can't access Cairn
It seems like this book, as of 2021, could also be bought from the Safran Museum in Melun, Seine-&-Marne, France.
 

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