Introduction:
John Arbuthnot Fisher, 1st Baron Fisher, Commander, Captain, Admiral, Second then First Sea Lord, one if not the most influential and prominent naval commander of the Royal Navy. His ideas, views and dedicated work allowed the modernization of the Royal Navy to remain in first place at the turn of the 20th century, but the work of his adversaries, political enemies and wrongdoers meant that his work and legacy got tarnished and many ideas and works attributed to him seen negatively after his death. I hope this view will change in the future as more and more people will know more about him from different writes gaining information and concrete data from his papers.
None the less I wish to collect the various warship designs and proposals this great and unique mind thought of throught his service in His Majesty's Royal Navy from the 1850's till his death at the 10th of July, 1920.
NOTE: AS I do more drawings I will update this thread and posts accordingly
The Early years (1880's):
HMS Inflexible modification (1882):
Captain John Fisher's first command was the battleship of the Royal Navy HMS Inflexible. During his command the ship seen many new ideas, bombarded Alexandria and put an ever lasting memory on him. Including the desire for high speed, high freeboard and all or nothing armour scheme. During this time around 1882 Fisher proposed a modification for her ship:
Adding 50ft or roughly 15meters between the armoured citadel and the bow to improve it's length to beam ratio hoping to achieve an increased speed of 2-3 knots
Originally it was thought that the lengthening would increased the top speed of the ship by 2-3 knots, but new findings revealed that Fisher thought of increasing the sustained speed of the ship by such an amount from roughly 12-12,5knots to 15-15,5knots and not the maximum speed to 16-17knots.
On the other hand, using Springsharp I could only do 16knots with likely forced draft of 10.700shp though possibility to install 12.000shp Vertical Triple Expansion engines could drive the ship to the desired 17knots.
Due to the added length forward I could install more light guns on the forecastle deck.
None the less I present hereto my knowledge fisher's very first warship proposal.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 112,74 (pp) x 115 (wl) x 120,15 (oa) x 22,9 x 7,85 meters
Displacement: Unknown around 12.900-13.000tons (standard)
Armour: 610mm belt, 76mm deck
Engines: 8.500shp Vertical Compound engines, 2 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 29km/h (15,5knots)
Armaments:
2x2 16"/18 (406mm/18) MLR Mark I Cannons,
12x1 4"/27 (102mm/27) BL Mark III Guns,
8x1 47mm/40 or 57mm/40 QF Mark I Guns,
2x1 356mm Underwater torpedo tubes
After Fisher finished his service as the commanding officer of HMS Inflexible which made a deep impact on him, the Royal Navy offered him a position at HMS Excellent the gunnery school of the Royal Navy at Whale Island near Portsmouth. Here he perfected and introduced new techniques and thoughts for the Royal Navy but he was not forgotten his experience on the seas. Sometime between 1882 and 1884 he exchanged letters with Sir Philip Watts discussing a new kind of battleship for the Royal Navy. This battleship would be like none other hence the name Nonsuch. It emphasize firepower both at ship ends and at the broadside with 4 twin 16" armed turrets (actually barbettes) high speed of 18knots, Inflexible like all or nothing citadel armour, on an unprecedented displacement of 16.000tons! Note at this time the battleships of the navies rarely reached 11.000tons standard displacement. Fisher's exact requirements was a 4 turret 8 gun broadside on a turret arrangement which combined the centreline end on turrets of Devastation with the echelon turrets of Inflexible.Thus this battleship was born.
The 16" armament was a requirement to counter the new Italian heavily armed battleships of the Duilio, Italia and Ruggiero di Lauria class each armed with weapons exceeding 400mm! The only such calibre weapon in the RN arsenal was the old and obsolete 16" Muzzle Loader cannons while the new Admiral class battleships only armed with 13,5" cannons not strong enough to counter the Italians. The Royal Navy arms manufacturers were designing new large calibre weapons including Armstrong which at the time had a 80-ton 16"/30 Breech Loader in the development which soon will evolve into the 110-ton 16,25"/30 Cannon mounted on HMS Benbow and on the two Victoria class battleships. This weapon would be ideal for Nonsuch being strong enough to counter the Italians and not too heavy to mount.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 125 (wl) x 23 meters
Displacement: 16.000tons (standard)
Armour: Unknown around 356mm belt, 76mm deck
Engines: Unknown around 17-18.000shp Vertical Triple Expansion engines, 2 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 33km/h (18knots)
Armaments:
4x2 16"/30 (406mm/30) BL Mark I Cannons,
4-8x1 6"/27 (152mm/27) BL Mark II Guns,
4-8x1 47mm/40 or 57mm/40 QF Mark I Guns,
2-4x1 356mm Underwater torpedo tubes
HMS Untakeable the next battleship design from the now Admiral John Arbuthnot Fisher. He proposed a warship with excellent end-on fire as well as broadside, high speed preferably with all oil firing boilers, steam turbines and a good number of novel and unique aspects. Fisher envisioned a battleship which could approach the enemy unnoticed as close as it could via the less smoke production of oil fired boilers and a single mast for communications and hail down a hell of a fire with large number fast firing guns hence the name Untakeable as the enemy could not take over it's destructive power. After Fisher consulted with the naval architect William Henry Gard the preliminary calculations shown that the design would displace around 15.000tons, 9" lower. 7" upper belt and 3" deck armour for 21knots speed 30.000shp would be required (this value was overestimated greatly) and a hull close to 500 x 75ft. This was only a basic calculation and Fisher included a number of unique aspects in his design.
The design's most striking and unique features are:
- Superfiring position of the 10" turrets to provide excellent firing angles
- two-tow turrets aft and one-one twin 7,5" turrets at the sides which has twice the fire rate as the 10" guns and provide greater firing arcs at the corners of the ship as well as forward and aft: 4-4 turrets each
- 4" guns to counter enemy torpedo-boats and destroyers in blast free positions
- Armoured conning tower for centralized fire control only forward (Which only appears on RN ships much later)
- Telescopic funnels which theoretically would provide less obstructions for the main weapons of the ship arc of fire as well as reduce the silhouette of the ship while approaching the enemy though the issues with the toxic gases seems not thought over
- Gantry crane system for the ship boats to be loaded and unloaded as the single thin polemast would not be enough for them
- Collapsible Berthon Boats stored under the main deck in protected rooms and quickly released by the side openings because it was expected that both the main boats and cranes would be unusable after the battle.
- Linoleum covered deck instead of wood planks to reduce damage to the crew.
Fisher’s ‘Untakeable’ concept battleships In the following article the Information on Fisher’s ‘Untakeable’ designs are drawn from the Fis
www.tapatalk.com
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 143,25 (pp) x 153 (wl) x 157,9 (oa) x 24,4 x 7,62m
Displacement: Around 15.000tons (standard)
Armour: 178-229mm belt, 76mm deck
Engines: Around 24-25.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 39km/h (21knots)
Armaments:
2x2 10"/50 (256mm/50) BL Mark V Guns,
6x2 7,5"/50 (190mm/50) BL Mark II Guns,
10x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
In parallel with the first Untakeable design Fisher proposed a modified version an even more unique design where all the machinery was located aft and all the armament forward in a sort of Nelson / N3 arrangement the very first in history if we do not count the single turreted Victorias and Itsukushimas. The pros of this layout are that the funnels are far away from the command facilities and command positions and when the telescopic funnels were lowered the aft turrets firing angles will be unobstructed. But the issues would be a longer belt armour as the machinery space are longer as well as cramped due the extreme aft position and the cut quarterback will likely be wet in bad sea states.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 143,25 (pp) x 153 (wl) x 157,9 (oa) x 24,4 x 7,62m
Displacement: Around 15.000tons (standard)
Armour: 178-229mm belt, 76mm deck
Engines: Around 24-25.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 39km/h (21knots)
Armaments:
2x2 10"/50 (256mm/50) BL Mark V Guns,
6x2 7,5"/50 (190mm/50) BL Mark II Guns,
12x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
Fisher continuously worked / proposed improvements on his Untakeable design where in around 1902 he proposed very likely the very first battleship with Uniform armament more closely resembling what became HMS Dreadnought then the previous HMS Nonsuch. The 3rd incarnation of HMS Untakeable or Design A shows a uniform 10" main armament on the same layout as Design 1 but on a longer hull to maintain the desired high 21knots speed because of the increased weight of the 8 twin 10" turrets some other aspects were discarded like the Berthon boat stowage and all oil propulsion which was modified to mixed oil and coal one.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 152,4 (pp) x 161,5 (wl) x 166,5 (oa) x 24,4 x 7,62m
Displacement: Around 17.000tons (standard)
Armour: 178-229mm belt, 76mm deck
Engines: Around 24-25.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 39km/h (21knots)
Armaments:
8x2 10"/50 (256mm/50) BL Mark V Guns,
12x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
This is basically almost identical to HMS Untakeable Design 1 but modified by Admiral John Rushworth Jellicoe and Admiral Sir Reginald Hugh Spencer Bacon to be more in standard of the Royal Navy construction practices of the time. They initiated the following changes:
- removed the Gantry crane system and replaced by cranes for boat handling
- all oil fuel propulsion was discarded for mixed oil and coal fuel
- regular funnels instead of telescoping ones
- stronger tripod mast instead of thin polemast
- addition of spotting top / lookout post at the top of the mainmast
Jellicoe and Bacon did not believed that 10" armament would be enough for a capital ship at the time and they wanted larger weapons and used Untakeable A as a starting point for further development
Otherwise the general aspects like dimensions, armament and armour remained the same as Design 3
Design B was essentially a Design 1 / Design A but with 12" armament in 4 twin turrets rather 10" guns which was forced by Admiral John Rushworth Jellicoe and Admiral Sir Reginald Hugh Spencer Bacon. The weight saved by using only 4 twin turrets went into better armour having the belt increased from 9" main and 7" upper to 12" main and 9" upper belt. The description about the design is vague and indicates it was not well developed as the single mainmast location is questionable. Either located aft of the bridge to act as a spotting top and radio mast but then boat handling requires a smaller single polemast aft but not taller then the funnels, or it was to be located behind the 1st funnel where it would likely hamper the spotting top, and the boat storage would be between the funnels meaning the secondary 4" guns had to be placed elsewhere. Additional info compared to the previous design is the likely inclusion of a torpedo director and 5 torpedo tubes: 2 per sides and 1 aft.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 152,4 (pp) x 161,5 (wl) x 166,5 (oa) x 24,4 x 7,62m
Displacement: Around 16-17.000tons (standard)
Armour: 229-256mm belt, 64mm deck, 64mm slopes
Engines: Around 24-25.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 39km/h (21knots)
Armaments:
4x2 12"/45 (305mm/45) BL Mark X Guns,
16x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
The final and ultimate incarnation of the Untakeable concept created by Fisher. This design was proposed during the development of HMS Dreadnought and influenced the preliminary designs C1 and C2 but due to it's last minute addition to the series as both Admiral Jellicoe or Bacon disliked superfiring turrets and they would more then likely not approved or changed the design. None the less this proposal was far more superior to the Dreadnought because it has the same end on fire both forward and aft: 6-6 guns in 3-3 turrets and an 50% more broadside from 12 guns instead of 8 of Dreadnought and the light armament was also much stronger being the 4"/40 quick firing guns rather the smaller 3" ones.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 169,16 (pp) x 177,66 (wl) x 182,4 (oa) x 25,6 x 8,11m
Displacement: 20.700tons (standard)
Armour: 229-256mm belt, 64mm deck, 64mm slopes
Engines: Around 30-32.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 39km/h (21knots)
Armaments:
6x2 12"/45 (305mm/45) BL Mark X Guns,
16x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
HMS Unapproachable Armoured Cruiser / Fast Battleship Series (1902-1903):
Design 1 (1902)
At the time Admiral John Arbuthnot Fisher drawn up the idea of HMS Untakeable, He also envisioned a companion design to his battleship, an armoured cruiser with such wast speed, no other capital ship or armoured cruiser could get close to it to fight it head on, hence the name: HMS Unapproachable!
Generally it follows the same layout and armament as the Untakeable Battleship concept but for the desired high speed of 25,5knots the hull was much longer, less beamier and somewhat deeper. The high speed required a larger number of boilers hence the addition of the 3rd funnel otherwise it contains the same concepts as the HMS Untakeable:
- Superfiring position of the 10" turrets to provide excellent firing angles
- two-two turrets aft and one-one twin 7,5" turrets at the sides which has twice the fire rate as the 10" guns and provide greater firing arcs at the corners of the ship as well as forward and aft: 4-4 turrets each
- 4" guns to counter enemy torpedo-boats and destroyers in blast free positions
- Armoured conning tower for centralized fire control only forward (Which only appears on RN ships much later)
- Telescopic funnels which theoretically would provide less obstructions for the main weapons of the ship arc of fire as well as reduce the silhouette of the ship while approaching the enemy though the issues with the toxic gases seems not thought over
- Gantry crane system for the ship boats to be loaded and unloaded as the single thin polemast would not be enough for them
- Collapsible Berthon Boats stored under the main deck in protected rooms and quickly released by the side openings because it was expected that both the main boats and cranes would be unusable after the battle.
- Linoleum covered deck instead of wood planks to reduce damage to the crew.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 152,4 (pp) x 161,5 (wl) x 166,5 (oa) x 19,5 x 7,92m
Displacement: Around 14.000tons (standard)
Armour: 152mm belt, 51mm deck
Engines: Around 40-50.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments:
2x2 10"/50 (256mm/50) BL Mark V Guns,
6x2 7,5"/50 (190mm/50) BL Mark II Guns,
12x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
Like the first variant, this design too was the companion armoured cruiser design to the Untakeable version 2, It uses the same hull elements same ideas that Fisher proposed but as it was an armoured cruiser, speed was more essential hence the longer and sleeker hull but thinner armour.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 152,4 (pp) x 161,5 (wl) x 166,5 (oa) x 19,5 x 7,92m
Displacement: Around 14.000tons (standard)
Armour: 152mm belt, 51mm deck
Engines: Around 40-50.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments:
2x2 10"/50 (256mm/50) BL Mark V Guns,
6x2 7,5"/50 (190mm/50) BL Mark II Guns,
12x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
Continuing the series, Design 3 is the companion Armoured Cruiser design of the Untakeable 3 concept and shows the same layout and equipment choices. A uniform armament armoured cruiser / battlecruiser or fast battleship with quick firing main guns, good speed and adeqaute armour.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 161,54 (pp) x 170 (wl) x 174,85 (oa) x 22,86 x 8,08m
Displacement: Around 14.000tons (standard)
Armour: 152mm belt, 51mm deck
Engines: Around 40-50.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments:
8x2 10"/50 (256mm/50) BL Mark V Guns,
12x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
HMS Uncatchable Battlecruiser Series (1904) (Pre-Invincible Preliminaries):
Design A:
This drawing shows the very first proposal Fisher created for the HMS Dreadnought's Armoured Cruiser (now we call Battlecruiser) companion but with elements Fisher would had seen on the design (The actual sketch drawing shows a different hull and likely more Invincible like structural elements. These include the distinct clipper bow, telescopic funnels, Untakeable/Unapproachable like small bridge with Rangefinder on top of it which in turn resulted in the ability for the two forward side by side turrets to fire directly or at least a very good angle aft, Swiftsure type simple "goose neck" cranes and most equipments out of the way from the turrets blast.
The hull has a forecastle deck with very minimal sheer and the upper deck goes from the back of the front turrets all the way to the stern with a slight sheer as well.
Due to the longer /50 calibre guns Fisher envisioned the turrets had to be larger meaning their rotating circle too became bigger and had to be placed somewhat further away from each other putting them much closer to the sides of the hull creating the issue which plagues the designs adopting this layout.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 158,5 (pp) x 169,75 (wl) x 174,2 (oa) x 22,86 x 8,08m
Displacement: 16.000tons (standard)
Armour: 152mm belt, 25mm deck over Magazines, 19mm over Machinery
Engines: 42.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments:
4x2 12"/50 (305mm/50) BL Mark XI Cannons,
16x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III Guns,
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
This is the drawing which is based on the actual sketch drawing survived of the first version of Uncatchable showing the characteristic British Ram Bow and curved Stern, likely straight long funnels and the 12pounder or 3"/50 guns actually adopted for the Dreadnought. All stats are the same as above except the Anti Torpedo Boat gun armament being 20x 3"/50 QF Mark I ones. You can imagine that Designs B and C would look like this as well if DNC were to provide more detailed drawings. Sketch:
Design B shows the same turret layout as variant A but on a different lower profile hull likely to save weight. The forecastle deck deleted, the upper deck now starts from the nose and ends short of the 3rd turret or even connects it with a slight sheer, the sketch drawing is not clear on this regard and the main deck now carries the 4th turret while the Upper deck holds the 1st 2nd and 3rd turrets. Due to the deletion of the forecastle deck the 4" gun armament had to be repositioned with the 4x guns behind and under the forwardmost turrets now placed around the enlarged and taller bridge to be able to fire over the front turrets.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, likely as design A so: 158,5 (pp) x 169,75 (wl) x 174,2 (oa) x 22,86 x 8,08m
Displacement: Unknown
Armour: 152mm belt, 25mm deck over Magazines, 19mm over Machinery
Engines: 42.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments:
4x2 12"/50 (305mm/50) BL Mark XI Cannons,
16x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III Guns,
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes Sketch:
Design C is like the mix of the previous two with both Forecastle, Upper and Main decks and the associated turrets on them. Hull dimensions are unknown, a well informed friend suggested the same hull as Invincible A while I remained with the same as Design A. The ship shows a characteristic sheer on all decks, the sketch drawing shows that the forecastle goes well behind the front turrets likely to the forwardmost funnel, the upper deck goes aft until the 3rd turret and the Main deck still houses the 4th turret as on design B. All 3 designs shows that the turret pairs share their armoured barbettes with each other.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, likely as design A so: 158,5 (pp) x 169,75 (wl) x 174,2 (oa) x 22,86 x 8,08m
Displacement: Unknown
Armour: 152mm belt, 25mm deck over Magazines, 19mm over Machinery
Engines: 42.000shp Vertical Triple Expansion engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments:
4x2 12"/50 (305mm/50) BL Mark XI Cannons, or /45 BL Mark X ones
16x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III Guns,
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
After Lord Fisher proposed his Untakeable and Uncatchable designs which produced the battleship HMS Dreadnought and the two battlecruiser classes of the Invincible and Indefatigable, he returned with a new design in 1905. A warship armed and armoured like a battleship with the speed of a dreadnought-cruiser or battlecruiser hence the name HMS Fusion or Fusion design because it fused all the aspects of the previous capital ships into a single hull.
HMS Fusion essentially a flush decked, up-gunned (both in number and barrel length calibre) and up-armoured Indefatigable. The main armament was Fisher's long advocated 50 calibre 12" Mark XI cannon in two twin and two triple turrets, being the triple ones on the wings providing an 8 gun end on fire with a 10 gun broadside. Flush deck because Fisher always advocated such a hull shape if possible. General superstructure layout followed hat of the Indefatigable class battlecruisers with changes according to the wider hull and triple wing turrets. Secondary armament was as described in the available documents: all eight of the 4" guns are located on the stern under and around the 4th main turret, while the rest of the anti-torpedo boat gun armament the eighteen 3" guns were distributed among 3 positions: The forward superstructure, the aft superstructure and on the stern. To achieve the desired speed of 24knots or 44km/h a large power plant of 45.000shp was required which was almost twice that was used on the HMS Dreadnought's 23.000shp one and only slightly stronger than Invincible's 41.000 and Indefatigable's 44.000shp plants.
All these aspects meant quite a heavy hull as the standard displacement risen to a whopping 22.500tons which produced a heft price tag on the design and which eventually meant the death of the construction of these vessels as the parliament did not voted it's construction, as 3 such ships equaled in costs to 4 Dreadnoughts!
So here is my interpretation of John Fisher's HMS Fusion design, the first Fast Battleship to incorporate battleship grade armament and armour with battlecruiser level speed.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 176,78 (pp) x 189,89 (oa) x 25,3 x 8,41m
Displacement: 22.500tons (standard), 23.926tons (full load)
Armour: 279mm Belt, 43mm Deck, 68mm Slopes
Engines: 45.000shp Parsons Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 44km/h (24knots)
Armaments:
2x3,2x2 12"/50 (305mm/50) BL Mark XI Cannons,
8x1 4"/50 (102mm/50) BL Mk VII Guns,
18x1 3"/50 (76mm/50) QF Mark I Guns,
3x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
More info can be found here:
In early part of 1908 Sir John Arbuthnot Fisher, First Sea Lord of the Admiralty tried again to introduced the fast battleship into the fleet after the failure of HMS Fusion in 1905. Numerous letters between him and Sir Philip Watts as well as Reginald McKenna, First Sea Lord shows what is fisher wanted for the next construction programme: A Fast capital ship of 28knots (52km/h) eight 13,5" cannons arranged as in Neptune so superfiring pair forward with the rest on the centreline midship and aft. He thought that by using small tube boilers, considerable space could be freed up by a heavily reduced machinery space and thus quite a shortened citadel to around 98-110meters (Lion had 151meters of armoured citadel length). The resulting compact citadel as well as the use of the much more effective and reduced number of small tube boilers created a ship with long sheer forward, long quarterdeck, closely spaced turrets (Compared to Lion) and a single funnel. Fisher named her Nonpareil because it is unparalleled, without equal among the capital ships afloat, it is both as fast as a battlecruiser and as armed as no other battleship!
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, Likely around Lion sized so 213,4 (oa) x 27 x 7,4m
Displacement: Around 22.000tons (standard)
Armour: 229mm Belt, 25-51mm Deck
Engines: Around 70-75.000shp Parsons Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 52km/h (28knots)
Armaments:
4x2 13,5"/45 (343mm/45) BL Mark V Light Cannons,
12x1 4"/50 (102mm/50) BL Mk VII Guns,
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
HMS Sanspareil was a design based on Fisher's ideas of the Nonpareil but proposed by Sir Philip Watts as an alternative to that design.
It features more standard Admirality elements as well as requiremnts by the Admirality of the time, namely a 10 gun broadside. Fisher and Watts expected (Also due to docking limiations) that the hull (And citadel) would be minimally, only 9ft or 2,74m longer than that of the Nonpareil yet it would had the same 28knots speed and similar armour to that of Nonpareil. Watts expected that while Nonapreil would easily exceed the desired 28knots speed, Sasnpareil with her deeper draft could reach the desired speed on the same shp.
Note: Sanspareil means the same as Nonpareil eg Without equal or unparalleled just Nonpareil is more comonly used by the British while Sansapreil or Sans Pareil by the French, though both are French words.
It is possible that this design and the ideas of Nonpareil was used as a basis for the development of the Lion class battlecruisers and the Orion class battleships.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, but 9ft longer then Nonpareil so 216,15 (oa) x 27 x 8m
Displacement: Around 23.650tons (standard)
Armour: 229mm Belt, 25-51mm Deck
Engines: Around 70-75.000shp Parsons Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 52km/h (28knots)
Armaments:
5x2 13,5"/45 (343mm/45) BL Mark V Light Cannons,
16x1 4"/50 (102mm/50) BL Mk VII Guns,
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
Evident from letters between Admiral of the Fleet John Arbuthnot Fisher and Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill in 1911, Fisher re-surfaced the idea of his Nonpareil design, but with updated technologies and armaments like Geared Steam Turbines, 15"/42 BL Mark I cannons, disappearing gun mountings and yet to be adapted small tube boilers (Which was also proposed for the 1909 Nonpareil) in a similar hull of the previous incarnation. The usage of geared turbines, and evenly spaced turrets which was later adopted for the Queen Elizabeth and Revenge classes allowed around the same citadel length as of the 1909 design despite the larger barbettes of the 15" twin turrets. As usual Fisher opted for even higher speeds now demanding 30knots, usual thin armour together with the newer turbine technology he suggested that displacement increment could be kept at a minimum. Fisher told Churchill that this design would be cheaper by half a million sterling while both more heavly armed and faster than the King George V's then under construction or the Iron Dukes then under in proposal stage.
A unique aspect of the design compared to other warships is the usage of disappearing 4" gun mounts which allowed the usage of the main turrets without the danger of effecting the anti-torpedo boat guns because if not in action or in case of the main turrets fire they could be recessed or lowered into the armoured hull for safety. This unique aspect of disappearing guns later re-emerges in a number of designs offered by Fisher, like the 1912 Diesel Proto-Incomparable or Vickers design 623, the first Incomparable variants or HMS Citadel.
A sidenote regarding Fisher's enthusiasms about his designs is this extract from a Letter, Fisher to Churchill 13 November 1911:
“…And now a telegram from you for me to meet you at Plymouth where I suppose we shall discuss millions of foot-tons at 6 miles range (the horizon is 7 miles!) making German destroyers into tooth powder! When they can’t reach Non-Pareil! and the 3 h’s an the 3 l’s win the day!
For superiority of speed, preponderance of gun calibre and unity of armament (which means fire control in excelsis) enables you to
I Hit First
II Hit Hard
III Keep on Hitting
and to fight
I when you Like
II How you Like
III where you Like
You tell me Watts has not yet given you the design. What make shim so long I wonder. I hope he isn’t messing about armour. Armour wants reducing. We are getting like the knights of old! You only want enough thickness of armour to make the shell burst outside. And in most places where now armour is put you don’t want it at all. And as for the Torpedo Bogey ”Size and Subdivision” is the war cry!...
…Watts and Co hate subdivision and so do the officers and crews! Its so damned inconvenient! Nothing but pokey little spaces everywhere! “It’s not magnificent but it’s war”!...”
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, Likely around Lion sized so 213,4 (oa) x 27 x 7,4m
Displacement: Around 23.500-24.000tons (standard)
Armour: 229mm Belt, 25-51mm Deck
Engines: Around 80.000shp Parsons Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
4x2 15"/42 (381mm/42) BL Mark I Light Cannons,
12x1 4"/50 (102mm/50) BL Mk VII Guns,
4x1 533mm Underwater torpedo tubes
Here I present you Lord Fisher's very first design which bears the name Incomparable a Warship with high speed of 30knots and unprecedented firepower of 10x 16" cannons and thick 16" belt armour.
The design incorporates what Fisher desired in his new capital ships:
- New large calibre main guns - 16"
- High speed - 26-30knots
- Diesel engines for extra range and minimal funnel size and smoke
- Disappearing or turreted gun mounts for anti-torpedo boat defence
- Long sleek hull to reach the desired speed.
- Telescopic mast for reduce silhouette
- Under deck boat stowage to reduce the required deck space and further reduce the silhouette of the ship
- Linoleum deck for minimal battle damage regarding the crew due to wooden shrapnels
Based on the very rough sketch of Fisher's, actually 8 designs can be created:
26knot versions:
a - Single 16" wing turrets,6" guns in turrets
b - No 16" wing turrets, 6" guns in turrets
c - Single 16" wing turrets, 6" disappearing mounts
d - No 16" wing turrets, 6" disappearing mounts
30knot versions:
a - Single 16" wing turrets,6" guns in turrets
b - No 16" wing turrets, 6" guns in turrets
c - Single 16" wing turrets, 6" disappearing mounts
d - No 16" wing turrets, 6" disappearing mounts
From this sketch design Fisher proposed the later much cleaned up versions of the Incomparables including the earlier replacement Queen Elizabeth designs and later variants intended for his Baltic Amphibious operations.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 201,17 (pp) 213,36 (oa) x 26.21 meters
Displacement: Unknown
Armour: 406mm Belt
Engines: around 72-80.000bhp (Equivalent to 96-107.000shp) Diesel engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 48-56km/h (26-30knots)
Armaments:
4x2,2x1 16"/40 (406mm/40) Vickers Mark A Cannons,
16x1 6"/50 (102mm/50) Vickers Mark R or BL Mk XIII Guns,
8x1 533mm Underwater torpedo tubes
This version sacrifices the wing single turrets which Fisher not that fond of keeping and I've put the 6" guns in disappearing mounts otherwise same as the other design
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 201,17 (pp) 213,36 (oa) x 26.21 meters
Displacement: Unknown
Armour: 406mm Belt
Engines: around 72-80.000bhp (Equivalent to 96-107.000shp) Diesel engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 48-56km/h (26-30knots)
Armaments:
4x2 16"/40 (406mm/40) Vickers Mark A Cannons,
16x1 6"/50 (102mm/50) Vickers Mark R or BL Mk XIII Guns,
8x1 533mm Underwater torpedo tubes
Fisher was in contact with the Vickers firm for some time and he often asked and discussed information regarding new technologies and ideas related to warships. He proposed a new kind of warship utilizing the then rapidly evolving technology of the internal combustion engine eg the Diesel Motors for it's propulsion which would radically reduce the citadel of a warship having requiring much less space for machinery but also immensely reducing the crew requirements by many 100 due to the removal of the manpower intensive Boilers and turbines. These aspects together with the minimal funnel required for Diesel engines, allowed basically the deletion of the entire superstructure dedicated for crew and officer spaces. Another aspects are the introduction of fully disappearing mountings for the 6" guns, the telescopic MACK (Mast and Stack) and the unusual placement of the conning towers on top of the superfiring turrets! Such ideas in minimalizing the above deck structures would had allowed for a very low silhouette battleship.
This small silhouette together with the basically invisible fumes of the Diesel engines would had made the ship very difficult to spot, especially in the usual weather of the Northern Sea and the Atlantic Ocean!
The Diesel engines would had been very big for their time having four 15.0000bhp 12 cylinder installed in the machinery parallel with each other each driving it's own shaft. To further reduce the silhouette and to protect the boats from damage or blast, they would had been protected under the main deck and could had been accessed via a sliding door.
Vickers created this design with the in-house number 623 and Fisher somewhat later used it as a basis for his first Incomparable battleship/battlecruiser designs!
Another addendum regarding this design is that is also created as an equivalent for the then under design battleship, the Queen Elizabeth class, and due to the aspects used it became a much superior design in almost every aspect:
Higher speed, thicker belt armour, longer range, smaller silhouette, smaller crew requirements, all weather usable secondary armament.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 184.4m (pp) x 27.43 meters
Displacement: 27.500tons (standard)
Armour: 356mm Belt, 76mm Deck
Engines: 56.000bhp (Equivalent to 75.000shp) Diesel engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 46km/h (25knots)
Armaments:
4x2 15"/42 (381mm/42) BL Mark I Cannons,
12x1 6"/50 (102mm/50) Vickers Mark R or BL Mk XIII Guns,
4x1 533mm Underwater torpedo tubes
Design B or the 29.000ton Diesel Battleship by Vickers was made by Fisher's and Churchill's requests for a somewhat more conventional battleship compared to the A type and to what could be done on Queen Elizabeth class's size. The result was a much better design than what was actually built. This 29.000ton version having somewhat larger displacement but much better armour, range, and armament (either the same 15"/42 or a better 16" cannons) while retain the same speed on a much reduced silhouette!
The design features most aspects of the A variant but instead of turret-top conning towers it features one large round conning tower behind the 2nd turret with the MACK just behind it. Boat handling was not clear, it could be two cranes at both sides of the boat stowage door, or a single derrick connected to the MACK. The disappearing 6" gun mounts were retained.
While the A variant was a direct replacement to the Queen Elizabeth design showing what can be done by using only diesel engines and Fisher's minimal silhouette idea, variant B improves on it with the addition of 1.500tons of displacement and voala: a battleship was born which was even more capable then the QEs:
16" instead or 13" main belt armour, same speed as design A though somewhat thinner deck armour, heavier main armament of 16" guns and more numerous torpedo tubes while it retains a single connign tower instead of the turret-top conning towers of the previous design.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 195.07m (pp) x 27.58 meters
Displacement: 29.000tons (standard)
Armour: 406mm Belt, 64mm Deck
Engines: 56.000bhp (Equivalent to 75.000shp) Diesel engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 46km/h (25knots)
Armaments:
4x2 16"/40 (406mm/40) Vickers Mark A Cannons,
12x1 6"/50 (102mm/50) Vickers Mark R or BL Mk XIII Guns,
8x1 533mm Underwater torpedo tubes
Design C of the Incomparable series was Fisher's first proposal to truly combine very high speed (in this case 35knots) heavy gun armament of 4 twin 16" cannons and excellent armour of 16" belt!
Fisher's desire for high speed required a very long hull but this allowed more space for both the Anti-Torpedo boat guns as well as the boat stowage of the ship, under the main deck. Another characterstic of the Incomparable series was the Diesel engines, Telescopic mast and combined funnel (If possible to make) and the disappearing gun mounts.
Fisher actually made decisions and ordered a design to be done and built but the start of WW1 prevented any further work to be done and thus Fisher instead tinkered with the design creating two more variants later with even more speed and heavier armament of 18" and 20" cannons on 40knots!
You can think of this design as a superior one to that of the Admiral class battlecruiser HMS Hood!
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 259.08 (pp) x 272,03 (wl) x 273,53 (oa) 27.43 x 8,4 meters
Displacement: 38-40.000tons (standard)
Armour: 406mm Belt, 64mm Deck, 64mm Slopes
Engines: 112.000bhp (Equivalent to 150.000shp) Diesel engines, 4 shafts
Speed: Around 65km/h (35knots)
Armaments:
4x2 16"/40 (406mm/40) Vickers Mark A Cannons,
16x1 6"/50 (152mm/50) Vickers Mark R or BL Mk XIII Guns,
8x1 533mm Underwater torpedo tubes
The D variant of the Incomparable series is truly a unique and very fast multi-purpose capital ship / battlecruiser which Fisher envisioned for his Baltic Operations. Partly it was a logical development of the Design C with further speed increase to 40knots and to achieve this a very long and sleek shallow draught hull was required with the same pewerplant as C but Fisher wanted all-round firepower eg as much as possible unrestricted firing arcs for the main turrets so minimal protrusions from the deck: no separate conning tower but instead return of the turret-top conning tower of Design A but on twin 18" turret, widely spaced main armament so the turrets themselves could rotate in 360°, the Telescopic funnel-mast moved aft out of sight, Boat stowage around the barbettes with one armoured hatch aft. Another aspect of the design is the ability to carry 10.000trops their equipment and specialized landing craft (The Y-Lighters 110 in number, with a carrying capacity of 80 troops each) partly on deck on the aft part of the hull for amphibious operations.
And of course the usual increase in firepower by adopting the then finished 18" cannons of the Royal Navy.
Fisher also envisioned the proposed the 5"/50 QF gun for this design which was cancelled by late 1915 but which was envisioned as a replacement for all secondary guns in RN having faster firing rate than the in service 6" guns yet not as heavy and having enough stopping power against Destroyers and Torpedo-Boats.
This proposal embodies Fisher's all ideas:
- Heavy armament to counter any threat
- Very high speed so even destroyers would not have a chance to catch her
- Minimal superstructure elements and diesel propulsion for maximum stealth capabilities.
- Thick armour to protect her from any adversary.
This is my interpretation based on minimal information and discussions with a friend who is the most knowledgeable person regarding Lord Fisher and his designs.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 304.8 (pp) x 317,65 (wl) x 319,25 (oa) 27.43 x 7,16 meters
Displacement: 40.000tons (standard)
Armour: 406mm Belt, 64mm Deck, 64mm Slopes
Engines: 112.000bhp (Equivalent to 150.000shp) Diesel engines, 4 shafts
Speed: Around 74km/h (40knots)
Armaments:
3x2 18"/40 (457mm/40) BL Mark IA Cannons,
12x1 5"/50 (127mm/50) QF Mk I Guns,
8x1 533mm Underwater torpedo tubes
Able to carry 10.000 troops, their equipment and 110 Y-Lighters
The final E variant of the Incomparable series is the ultimate development of this type featuring the truly impressive 20" cannons which was Armstrong designed to Fisher's request and for which both single and twin turret designs was proposed. While it is essentially a Design E with it's 18" twin turrets swapped out for 20" twins, the larger barbette diameter as well as the heavier guns and ammo meant sacrifices had to be made to remain in the desired shallow draught and 40.000ton limit. This sacrifice was emerged in the vastly thinned belt armour of around 10-12" belt to save tonnage. Other than this every aspect present on this design was the same as on the Variant D including the risen barbettes to free up space for deck operations which also resulted smaller deck footprint under the main deck in the boat hanger area for easier movement of ship boats. A truly fearsome vessel with an armament unmatched by any other design or ship afloat at the time and a speed unprecednted in a capital ship!
This is my interpretation based on minimal information and discussions with a friend who is the most knowledgeable person regarding Lord Fisher and his designs.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 304.8 (pp) x 317,65 (wl) x 319,25 (oa) 27.43 x 7,16 meters
Displacement: 40.000tons (standard)
Armour: Around 278-305mm Belt, 64mm Deck, 64mm Slopes
Engines: 112.000bhp (Equivalent to 150.000shp) Diesel engines, 4 shafts
Speed: Around 74km/h (40knots)
Armaments:
3x2 20"/40 (457mm/40) BL Mark IA Cannons,
12x1 5"/50 (127mm/50) QF Mk I Guns,
8x1 533mm Underwater torpedo tubes
Able to carry 10.000 troops, their equipment and 110 Y-Lighters
HMS Onslaught Light Battlecruiser Series (1915-16)
Basic Design (1915) (Courageous/Courageous Preliminary) Improved Variant A (1916) (Furious Preliminary) Improved Variant B (1916)
HMS Citadel Battlecruiser / Fast Battleship (1915) (Admiral Class Battlecruiser Preliminary Series basis)
M Class Cruiser Submarines (1915)
K Class Submarines (1915-1918)
Modified / Improved K class Cruiser Submarines (1916) Likely?
Moderators Note: Generally on SPF the rule is that member's artistic reconstructions/impressions belong in the User Artwork section of the forum to avoid misidentification as genuine project documentation.
In this case, given the historical details provided, after discussion with other Mod's I've decided to leave this thread here but to add the caveat that these are Tzoli's interpretations based off what information (in some cases scant) is known about Fisher's designs from the sketches and descriptions that he made. They are what-if artist impressions and so cannot be 100% guaranteed to be how the real ships may have looked had they been built but they do flesh out Fisher's ideas to give a good impression of what might have been.
I urge anyone with interest to check out the All the World's Battlecruisers forum posts on Fisher's designs, they are probably the best on the topic you'll find anywhere on the internet.
I'm sorry to hear that. I thought you guys know my drawings are as accurate as one can get from the limited infos available and could be considered reliable and not just some random enthusiast's interpretation. But looks like I was wrong. I thought this forum is for sharing information and visual interpretation of a never-were design greatly helps understanding such design...
It's not a reflection of the quality, I know you've done a lot of work on these over the past few years and had a lot of feedback from members on the Battlecruisers forum on them.
But ten artists could easily draw these proposals and come up with ten equally good possible interpretations.
I'm not saying don't share them here, I'm just saying please make it clear that these are not drawn directly from plans but are elaborations based on what few sketches still exist. There is a difference between reconstruction of an old plan and interpreting to fill in the gaps.
I'm sorry to hear that. I thought you guys know my drawings are as accurate as one can get from the limited infos available and could be considered reliable and not just some random enthusiast's interpretation. But looks like I was wrong
As Dilandu said you wasn’t wrong. Your research and reconstruction work is highly appreciated and well respected. There’s no doubt you’re amongst the forums top contributors. Please go on!
What Hood expressed is related to the “distance” existing from the original source to the “reconstruction”. That has been a subject of debate in the forum and it was decided to recommend an objective approach and inform the readers about the degree of adjustment between sources and reconstructions.
Well with or without the line "autors visualisation" the fact is that these drawings are, as all second-hand drawings are, artist impressions. That doesn't mean they are bad quality but they are what the author made of it. If I understand Hood's post here correctly, artist impressions are normally placed in another section of this forum while information gathered from research is in this section. These posts contain both of these: research results in the text, artist impressions in the images.
Or in other words, this is not about Tzoli's artworks quality but about the fact that it is an secondary source image, however well researched, and should be interpreted as such. (if a better source happens to come along that disproves these, these should not be used as counterargument) so it better be damn clear that these are artist impressions.
It is an common theme at shipbucket too, we try to do our best to represent designs but anything we add can be right or wrong. Anything beyond what the original plans or specifications showed is in essence fiction and should not be taken as a reference by others. And that is within a style that nobody in their right mind would confuse with actual plans as nobody creates those in pixel art.
All that said, Tzoli, I have seen you include (links to) references in your deviantart descriptions. This entire debate could be solved, I suspect, by you posting your research results/ references here, followed by an artist impression of that ship. That would I suspect move this "issue" from something that might be confusing to something highly valuable! (But I am mostly the lurker here so other peoples opinion on that weigh heavier then mine)
I thought people would be interested in Fisher's own proposals (which lack an official drawings or said drawings and sketches (for example from Fisher himself) are copyright protected) instead of discussing whatever it is okay to post artist impressions of drawings about designs which lack any official artwork at all.
I think we all are. Atleast I am. But also, as a sort of artist of these neverweres myself, I do aknowlidge that there lays a responsibility upon us all, when ever we depict these projects, specuially when we are working with just our own intereptions of some written part. After we complete our artwork, they bring life those ideas of past generations, but they also turn into sources to future generations that will someday study these projects. And we all know how in the mist of internet, any original intention, knowledge or claim about the sources and reliability gets quickly extracted from the actuall drawings and thus there always remain a possibility that some will be interepted wrongly. I've struggled with this myself many times, together with the shipbucket community, when imaginary fantasy gets then reprinted in some shady buplications as excerpts of reality. Thus we artists have the responsibility to be clear about what is based on what and thats why this has become a issue. If we ourselfves, and as members of these type of forums dont take that responsibility seriously, then no one else is going to do that for our behalf, and we just bite the feet of our children who comes after and dig in to the wonderous world of never-weres and concepts.
I've struggled with this myself many times, together with the shipbucket community, when imaginary fantasy gets then reprinted in some shady buplications as excerpts of reality.
Seriously, this is pretty much unavoidable. No matter how clearly you said that something is fiction, or alternate history - there always would be the... not very smart men, who would repost it as fact. I myself got my article about purely fictional naval battle between Soviet and Japanese cruisers near Hokkaido in 1945 referred as real event - despite article cleary stating that its a fictional, what-if scenario.
With all respect to efforts, but no matter what we do, we could not guarantee that no one ever took artistic impression for the reality. Nothing could be absolutely fool-proof against absolute fool, you know) Insisting on multiple petty formalities, offending the creators by what boil down to "you are to blame if some fool would took your visualization for actual blueprints" is the way to nowhere.
In sense you are right, We never can achieve perfect situation and exclude all possible future errorneous interperations, but still Its hardly a reason to not try to maintain the best possible quality on our arm-chair research work as we can. Like i said in my original post, no one else is not going to do it for our behalf, its up to our responsibility, of what sort of community we want this to be.
Both Tzoli and I have been caught by an "reference" for the CGN-9 Aegis conversion that looked like the well known CSGN artworks...... which was fake and was kitbashed by someone from those CSGN artworks. I found out the fact that it was kitbashed because the artist had posted it here with an description of kitbashing it here on secretprojects. (And I only found out that was the case after completing my shipbucket drawing of it and doing more research and finding the superstructure covered the reactor spaces.) In hindsight I should have known.......... but if I had not found the clear mention of the artist saying he made it, I would still be in doubt. Tzoli too made the same mistake and had about the same process of needing to make a new drawing of the actual proposal, IIRC.
We cannot avoid fools taking stuff marked as alternate universe for real stuff, but we can limit it to just the fools and not the people who actually read as much as possible.
"Edit: attached a Long Beach conversion picture I made five ears ago, before I settled on the 2 pixels= 1 foot scale. Guess I'll have to rework this one."
Might not be a full kitbash but an drawing of CGN-9 based on the then available source material in the style of the CSGN artwork posted a bit higher up in the thread. In any case, an drawing that was used as reference by you and me both after we found it somewhere on the net that happened to be fake when the original quality version was found here. https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/USS-Long-Beach-AEGIS-Variant-2-866090924
Anyways, this is not the place to discuss this, I just mentioned it here as an clear example of how an artist impression can start to live it's own life on the internet until even people like you and me use it as a source.
Added the HMS Uncatchabe designs if anybody still interested in info about Fisher's designs and not about how I illustrate them based on very limited information.
Added the HMS Uncatchabe designs if anybody still interested in info about Fisher's designs and not about how I illustrate them based on very limited information.
Well I for one would love to see more of these (design c for dreadnought is definitely my favorite here, I always thought it was 4 triple turrets not 6 twins)
Especially the 4x fusion designs, both the triple wings and the triple centerline ones.
Well I for one would love to see more of these (design c for dreadnought is definitely my favorite here, I always thought it was 4 triple turrets not 6 twins)
Especially the 4x fusion designs, both the triple wings and the triple centerline ones.
In regards to HMS Fusion, I think the likely names would be Defiance, Assistance, Assurance, Fortune, Redoubtable, Falkland, and Restoration. Names from Royal Navy Ships-of-the-line.
Given that X4 was proposed for the 1906-1907 programme, you can safely assume that if it was taken forward, it would have taken the names given to the battleships that year. The battlecruisers wouldn't have been built, on grounds of cost.
Given that X4 was proposed for the 1906-1907 programme, you can safely assume that if it was taken forward, it would have taken the names given to the battleships that year. The battlecruisers wouldn't have been built, on grounds of cost.
I am curious, could the X4s be an effective screen to face against the German Battlecruisers at Jutland while the Splendid Cats and the Invincibles and Indefatigables mop up the rest?
I am curious, could the X4s be an effective screen to face against the German Battlecruisers at Jutland while the Splendid Cats and the Invincibles and Indefatigables mop up the rest?
If the Fusions would had been built, there would be no Tiger and Lions as all subsequent capital ships would be of the fast battleship type. And by 1908/10 the Nonpareils would take over. After that Fisher would advocate diesel propulsion and thus the Incomparables.
You shall readthis thread, especially John French's posts:
The D variant of the Incomparable series is truly a unique and very fast multi-purpose capital ship / battlecruiser which Fisher envisioned for his Baltic Operations. Partly it was a logical development of the Design C with further speed increase to 40knots and to achieve this a very long and sleek shallow draught hull was required with the same pewerplant as C but Fisher wanted all-round firepower eg as much as possible unrestricted firing arcs for the main turrets so minimal protrusions from the deck: no separate conning tower but instead return of the turret-top conning tower of Design A but on twin 18" turret, widely spaced main armament so the turrets themselves could rotate in 360°, the Telescopic funnel-mast moved aft out of sight, Boat stowage around the barbettes with one armoured hatch aft. Another aspect of the design is the ability to carry 10.000trops their equipment and specialized landing craft (The Y-Lighters 110 in number, with a carrying capacity of 80 troops each) partly on deck on the aft part of the hull for amphibious operations.
And of course the usual increase in firepower by adopting the then finished 18" cannons of the Royal Navy.
Fisher also envisioned the proposed the 5"/50 QF gun for this design which was cancelled by late 1915 but which was envisioned as a replacement for all secondary guns in RN having faster firing rate than the in service 6" guns yet not as heavy and having enough stopping power against Destroyers and Torpedo-Boats.
This proposal embodies Fisher's all ideas:
- Heavy armament to counter any threat
- Very high speed so even destroyers would not have a chance to catch her
- Minimal superstructure elements and diesel propulsion for maximum stealth capabilities.
- Thick armour to protect her from any adversary.
This is my interpretation based on minimal information and discussions with a friend who is the most knowledgeable person regarding Lord Fisher and his designs.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 304.8 (pp) x 317,65 (wl) x 319,25 (oa) 27.43 x 7,16 meters
Displacement: 40.000tons (standard)
Armour: 406mm Belt, 64mm Deck, 64mm Slopes
Engines: 112.000bhp (Equivalent to 150.000shp) Diesel engines, 4 shafts
Speed: Around 74km/h (40knots)
Armaments:
3x2 18"/40 (457mm/40) BL Mark IA Cannons,
12x1 5"/50 (127mm/50) QF Mk I Guns,
8x1 533mm Underwater torpedo tubes
Able to carry 10.000 troops, their equipment and 110 Y-Lighters
The final E variant of the Incomparable series is the ultimate development of this type featuring the truly impressive 20" cannons which was Armstrong designed to Fisher's request and for which both single and twin turret designs was proposed. While it is essentially a Design E with it's 18" twin turrets swapped out for 20" twins, the larger barbette diameter as well as the heavier guns and ammo meant sacrifices had to be made to remain in the desired shallow draught and 40.000ton limit. This sacrifice was emerged in the vastly thinned belt armour of around 10-12" belt to save tonnage. Other than this every aspect present on this design was the same as on the Variant D including the risen barbettes to free up space for deck operations which also resulted smaller deck footprint under the main deck in the boat hanger area for easier movement of ship boats. A truly fearsome vessel with an armament unmatched by any other design or ship afloat at the time and a speed unprecednted in a capital ship!
This is my interpretation based on minimal information and discussions with a friend who is the most knowledgeable person regarding Lord Fisher and his designs.
The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 304.8 (pp) x 317,65 (wl) x 319,25 (oa) 27.43 x 7,16 meters
Displacement: 40.000tons (standard)
Armour: Around 278-305mm Belt, 64mm Deck, 64mm Slopes
Engines: 112.000bhp (Equivalent to 150.000shp) Diesel engines, 4 shafts
Speed: Around 74km/h (40knots)
Armaments:
3x2 20"/40 (457mm/40) BL Mark IA Cannons,
12x1 5"/50 (127mm/50) QF Mk I Guns,
8x1 533mm Underwater torpedo tubes
Able to carry 10.000 troops, their equipment and 110 Y-Lighters
HMS Onslaught Light Battlecruiser Series (1915-16)
Basic Design (1915) (Courageous/Courageous Preliminary) Improved Variant A (1916) (Furious Preliminary) Improved Variant B (1916)
HMS Citadel Battlecruiser / Fast Battleship (1915) (Admiral Class Battlecruiser Preliminary Series basis)
M Class Cruiser Submarines (1915)
K Class Submarines (1915-1918)
Modified / Improved K class Cruiser Submarines (1916) Likely?
HMS Onslaught Light Battlecruiser Series, Basic Design, Improved Variant A, Improved Variant B, HMS Citadel Battlecruiser/Fast Battleship, M class Cruiser Submarines, K class Submarines and Modified/Improved K class Cruiser Submarines to be added to make the list fully complete. And also Rhadamanthus Light Battlecruiser, and the other things you have listed.
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