Firearms secret projects

Bottleship

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Russian project "SKAT", 12 gauge assault rifle, "principle of operation - the work of a pulse of energy of the dynamic impact of powder gases". Ammunition - thermobarical, shrapnel, anti-infantry bullet-mine, "gravity effect"...
I can believe the Russians have found a new way to use gunpowder, but... "gravity effect"? Someone tell the Russians that they are not Adeptus Mechanicus and that this is not the 40th millennium...
 

Grey Havoc

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Send for the Skitarii!

Seriously though, 'gravitational action' may be referring to some form of gravimetric trigger for explosive rounds that are intended to have a very short radius of lethal effect.
 

Get_Em_Puppy

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Some less successful German SMGs from the interwar era...

Schmeisser M.K.36,II (Maschinenkarabiner 36) - basically an M.P.28,II in a Mauser-type rifle stock, with bayonet fittings and a vertical magazine feed. Supposedly designed to camouflage an NCO from being singled out by the enemy (allegedly it was a concern that anyone carrying an SMG would be instantly identifiable as an officer). A model in a Hungarian-style stock was also designed, but neither went into production.

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Schmeisser M.K.36,III - an improvement of the M.K.36,II with a telescopic recoil spring, similar to the Erma EMP and MP 40. Never went into production, allegedly because of legal disputes over the patent rights to the telescoping spring.

Schmeisser MK36 disassembled.png

Heinemann MP32 - recoil-operated, toggle-action submachine gun designed by Karl Heinemann of Rheinmetall. In the mid-1930s the design was sold to FN of Belgium who briefly produced it as the FN Model 1935, however it never achieved any sales.

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Mauser MP33 - an ill-fated attempt by Mauser to tap into the emerging SMG market. Unveiled in 1933 (conveniently the same year the Nazis came into power and alleviated the Versailles restrictions) and submitted to the Reichswehr, but not adopted. It was also offered in 9x23mm for Austrian export, but was rejected by them in favour of the Steyr-Solothurn S1-100.

Mauser Model 33.png
 

drejr

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View attachment 659882
Send for the Skitarii!

Seriously though, 'gravitational action' may be referring to some form of gravimetric trigger for explosive rounds that are intended to have a very short radius of lethal effect.

The consensus on Russian forums is that the inventor's a loon. Nobody knows what gravitational action ammunition is, probably a wire crossed somewhere. Really the guy just invented a muzzle brake.
 

Bottleship

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Dmitriy Golubev, Jule 1915, "шрапнелемёт" ("shrapnelemyot", "shrapnel machine gun"), 2", or 3", or 5" caliber, 300-600 rpm, range 6-12 versta (6.4-12.8 km)... "A plant for 2-3 thousand workers could produce such guns up to 1000 or more per year".
Why not? :D
 

Forest Green

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perttime

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Not all that secret:
"The KAR-21 is a modern rifle system designed to use two different sized cartridges from the same weapon. With just a one tool you can change the caliber from .223 Rem to .308 Win."

Apparently, functioning and shootability are great. I have my doubts about the usefulness of the changeable calibers.
 

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muttly

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I agree, only advantage if one caliber is in short supply. I would hope
that wouldn't happen.
 

dannydale

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This looks like one of these things that starts out as a joke, gets laughed out of the room, disappears for some time, then comes roaring back for real after some supporting technologies get invented or matured. We laugh now, but give it ten years...
 

Moose

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Getting down to practical size and useful power is going to take a couple orders of magnitude worth of downsizing in capacitor and coil size. A bit more than 10 years, at the current pace.
 

Bottleship

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Photo of new Russian AK, from guns.ru:
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"5,45х39 мм высокоэффективный динамически уравновешенный автомат "Тайшет" конструкции А. В. Шевченко, разработанный совместно с БГТУ "Военмех", Концерном "Калашников" и в/ч №... превосходит по кучности стрельбы [illegible] 5,56х45 [illegible] в [illegible] раз"
Translate:
"5.45x39 highly efficient dynamically balanced "Tayshet" assault rifle, constructed by A. V. Shevchenko, together with BGTU "Voenmeh", "Kalashnikov" concenre and military unit number ... superior in accuracy ... 5.56x45 ... in ... times" (it seems to me there are numbers like 2, 3 or 9).
And, new magazine (60-rd?)
 

Bottleship

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Weird gun from late XIX century from State Historical Museum in Moscow:
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Full leght 135 cm, barrel lenght 76.5 cm, caliber 19.4 mm (?), 5-rd.
Apparently, there is automation here, otherwise I cannot explain the presence of a "box" above the trigger. The caliber is indicated, apparently, is incorrect. If I understand correctly, this is a cylindrical magazine from which the cartridge is fed into the barrel. For some reason, the barrel is thickened near the magazine. According to its proportions, magazine is about 85mm long.
 

Forest Green

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I would say that the 5.7x28mm has more in common with a NATO 5.56mm. Probably shortened the cartridge and widened the neck a bit.
 

Bottleship

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Russian experiments, from guns.ru:
- Project "Impulse", 9x18 Makarov with 9x19 ballistics and 7.62x39 with 7.62x54R ballistics, several combustion chambers are used, due to which the efficiency of the gunpowder is increased and the recoil is reduced, externally, the cartridges look the same as ordinary ones, and can be used in conventional weapons (PM pistol, AKM), 1987 and later.
- Drum magazine for Baryshev 12.7 mm LMG
- 14.5 mm Baryshev machine gun (?)
- post-Soviet 6x49 assault rifle, builted in TsNIITochMash
- Compact assault rifle with "accumulated recoil impulse" in 5.45x26
 

Bottleship

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"superior in accuracy in in an unstable position (standing, from hands) 5.56x45 AK-102 assault rifle in 137 times"
It should be borne in mind that weapons in 5.56x45 are less stable than 5.45x39 in full-auto, the comparison criterion is chosen strange. Alexander Shevchenko once made "Bars" assault rifle, with accuracy 9, ... times better than AKM, using the same 7.62x39. Therefore, I don't think "137 times" really means something unreal.
Weight with empty magazine 3.72 kg, load weight 4.02 kg, rate of fire - 800 rpm
...
On guns.ru Ruslan Chumak recalls that a certain enlarged magazine was being developed for the AK (basic 115 rounds, but in fact 100), the spring could not cope, gunsmith Viktor Zelenko said that a tightening device was needed. Ruslan Chumak also says that the "customer" wished to have an AK with 900-1000 rpm.
 

Bottleship

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Soviet Airborne / Spetsnaz or similar?
Maybe.
The Airborne (VDV) are considered special troops, but they include special congratulations. Sounds something like "specialized special forces, consisting of specially trained specialists in the specialty of "Special Forces Specialist"".
The word "Spetsnaz" can be:
- GRU
- KGB/FSB ("Alpha", "Vympel")
- MVD (OMON, OMSN, etc., Soviet "militsiya" / police SWAT)
- Army (scouts, separate units of mechanized infantry)
- Marines
- Commando frogmens (MVD frogmens, KGB/FSB frogmens, naval PDSS frogmens)
- Border guards (assault maneuvering groups)
And other units.
Some of them wanted AK-LMG with 900-1000 rpm :)
 

Bottleship

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From Russian archives, suggestion of N. V. Obolenskiy, collegiate assessor, 15 Jule 1914, some kind of system that "feeds" "additional" shells to the guns and can reduce recoil. At the same time, it is indicated that the system is very simple. Obolenskiy also writes that "additional" shells can be made cheaper than "main" ones.
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Ravinoff

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Developed some brainpower and reverse image searched that ungodly Russian shotgun thing we went back and forth about on pages 3-4. It's not a pump-action 30x29 launcher as suggested in post #128, nor is it any kind of 26.5mm riot or flare gun like I was thinking.

It's actually called the AEK-965, produced experimentally at some point in the '90s by ZiD (Degtyaryov Plant) in Kovrov, and it fires the same 23x75mmR shell as the KS-23 "special carbine"/super-shotgun. Pump-action (evidently) based on a tilting bolt with twin action bars and a three-round tube magazine. Photos and info courtesy of user "Kosta_g" on forum.guns.ru and Google Translate.

With a bit more digging I've also figured out where the confusion about the 26.5mm flare/gas gun and the KS-23/AEK-965 came from: the original concept and testing in the '70s was done with a 26.5mm weapon (apparently similar to an RMB-93) using what I assume were standard CS gas and flare rounds. But the decision was made to use a rifled barrel instead of a smoothbore, so for simplicity the design was changed to fire a 23mm round that could use a cut-down and reprofiled 23mm autocannon barrel. Several other weapons were then designed to fire that same shell, including the KS-23 and variants, AEK-965, the "Tulyak" pistol from post #117, and the civilian TOZ-123 (a proper unrifled 4-bore shotgun) and the OF-93. The latter is a true oddity consisting of a 26.5mm - yes, 26.5mm - flare pistol with screw-in insert barrels in 23mm, smoothbore 4-gauge (same as the TOZ-123), and standard shotshells, 12-gauge at least, and I see references to 32, 28, 20 and 16-gauge versions as well. Plus a 23mm tranquilizer dart.

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T. A. Gardner

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I did a search and came up empty on this one on the site:

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This is the EMP 44 by Erma. There's one known original example existing. Developed in 1942 -43 as a cheap replacement for existing submachineguns, it was never produced in any quantity.


The one example in existence is in the ordinance collection at Ft. Lee VA.
 

Nik

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"German "police" Desert Eagle, late 90s or early 2000s:"

Why does that remind me of scene in 'Naked Gun' ?
When guy unpacks and assembles a 'machine gun' in middle of roof-top gunfight ?
Each time it comes into view, is bigger and more complicated, ends up as a swivel-mount auto-cannon...
 

Bottleship

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Russian mini-SMG in double-barrel 10 gauge shotgun, 1950s, 7.62x25, 7-rd magazine, weight of SMG 500 g, weight of bolt 250 g, rate of fire - 2000 rpm. The SMG could be pulled out of the barrel of a shotgun, and 16 gauge liner could be inserted. It is also written that options were developed for .22 LR, .25 ACP, hunting 12 gauge mini-SMG-cartridge with a tubular magazine and revolving cartridge feed, longer than standart 12 gauge cartridge.
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BurtonBarn

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Lewis LMG with 400-rd magazineView attachment 668957

Iron Felix, I'm sorry for not messaging you privately over this but for some reason it's not working for me right now so I'm just writing this message to let you know I have another question for you which I have put in the 'Further information on a variant of the Rudnitsky rifle' conversation. I'm only doing this because you missed my last question before this one before I started a new conversation with you about it so I'm just writing you this message to make sure the same thing doesn't happen again.
 

Bottleship

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I'm only doing this because you missed my last question before this one before I started a new conversation with you about it so I'm just writing you this message to make sure the same thing doesn't happen again.
I told absolutely everything I could find about it. There is practically no information.
 

klem

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A little-known weapon: The ultra-simplified assault rifle by C. G. Haenel G. Haenel Text and photos: Michael Heidler Translation and adaptation: Luc Guillou 44 Gazette des armes n°474 the StG 45 As everyone knows, the Mkb42 assault rifle was developed by the C.G. Haenel company in Suhl. Thereafter from the MkB42 (H), were developed the assault rifles MP43, MP 44, finally called Sturmgewehr 44 (StG 44). In a street in Berlin, in 1945, a German soldier with his Panzerfaust in front of a Stug III. Less well known is the fact that Haenel had developed an extremely simplified assault rifle in the last months of the war, for which the archives seem to have disappeared today. Fortunately, one example of this weapon survived the war after being seized from the Haenel factory in 1945 by the American army, and then sent for study, along with other assault weapons, to the Aberdeen test range in Maryland. Today, the surviving example is kept in Massachusetts, in the collections of the Springfield Arsenal. A simplified version of the StG 44 In December 1944, Haenel had obtained permission from the Infantry Weapons Commission to proceed with the development of an overly simplified version of the Sturmgewehr 44. The objective was to design a weapon with a minimum of machined parts and a maximum of pressed metal parts. This is how the StG 45 was born, whose silhouette is reminiscent of the MkB 42 because of its long gas tube extending to the muzzle. Like the StG 44, the StG 45 operates by borrowing gas and is equipped with a breech that locks by lowering, but the similarities end there. The gas tube whose surprising overhang in front of the gas fret was probably justified by the presence of the front sight at the end of the tube and by the will to preserve the line of sight of a certain length. Although the stepped profile of the barrel allows the use of the clamp grenade launcher sleeve, the forward projection of the gas tube would have hindered the assembly of this accessory. It is probable that this tube would have been shortened if the development of the StG45 had been continued. This photograph makes it possible to appreciate the difference between the smooth surfaces of the case and the gas shrinkage of StG45 and the ribbed surfaces of Stg44. The case is of parallelepiped shape and has a smooth surface i.e. without the many ribs of rigidification which one finds on StG44. The frame, to which are attached the trigger block and the stock, is articulated at the front of the case. Once the frame is tilted down, the mobile assembly (trigger, breech, recuperator spring and piston) can be easily removed from the case. Thanks to this principle of construction, it was not necessary any more to equip the weapon with a removable stick, prompt to take of the play and whose key of assembly could be easily lost with disassembling, like on the StG 44. The trigger mechanism is included in the handle of the weapon and has only a very rudimentary trigger guard and wooden grip plates. The firing selector and safety lever are inspired by those of the StG44 as well as the slider sight mounted on a sight foot directly welded to the case. The internal parts have a minimum of machined elements. The operating part is composed of a stamped metal part with a hook-shaped cocking lever. Because of the very flattened shape of this lever, the width of its guide groove in the left face of the case could be reduced to the minimum, in order to limit the possibilities of entry of foreign bodies. General front three-quarter view of the StG45 Haenel. The long gas tube carrying the front sight can be seen above the barrel. Compared to the ribbed surfaces of the StG 44, the completely smooth surfaces of the housing and the gas tube are surprising. When the operating piece is in front position, it closes the ejection window, which made it possible to save the installation of a shutter like the one which exists on the StG44. The piston of very simplified shape remains one of the rare machined parts of the weapon. It is assembled to the operating part by a simple hexagon nut. Similarly, the gas ring connecting the barrel to the gas tube has been simplified to the extreme and presents the aspect of a simple metal block with only flat surfaces. The last fighting in Berlin. In the background a soldier armed with a StG 44. (La Gazette des armes n°474)
 

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klem

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Peter Senich-Deutsche Sturmgewehre bis 1945-Motor buch verlag.p.141-149
 

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