Firearms secret projects

Firefly 2

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Up untill now we've seen a lot of the bigger hardware in this section, but I was wondering if anybody had informations on secret projects regarding small arms and machineguns?
The only thread of interrest I managed to find regarded the Girojet project.
So if any of you guys have such info, feel free to post it here.

Thnx
Wouter
 

Justo Miranda

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Hi,

I have very little material on the subject. Please see attached pictures.
There is a very good page on special sidearms at http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3l.html
 

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Ranger6

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:eek:

Hi,

Regarding Justo's post. The top item is a Fliegerfaust, a late war German effort to provide infantry (and armored formations) with a cheap and effective weapon to destroy Allied fighter-bombers. The weapon was essentially a multi-barreled rocket launcher, made light enough to be carried and fired by one man. The projectiles were standard 20MM AA rounds with a small rocket booster at the rear. The idea was a good one on paper, but had a few minor problems connected with actual use: First, the gunner had to stand totally erect while firing (thus exposing himslef to the aircraft's guns), second, range was very short and accuracy minimal (the idea was to put up alot of lead in the hope of hitting something). Finally, and more importantly, the shells did almost nothing to an Allied fighter-bomber -- to be effective they had to hit (the round was too small for a proximity fuse to add any lethality) and even multiple hits would barely scracth the paint on armored aircraft like the P-47 Thunderbolt or the IL-2 Shtrumorvik. I am not sure if any Fliegerfausts were actually used in the field.

The Lower picture is one of a number relating to German projects to develop small arms capable of firing around corners. This worked somewhat better -- if I remember corectly the attachment was called a Krumlauf -- and they were actually issued to field units in the last months of the war.

To tell the truth, I'd love to see an additional region on the site covering small arms, artillery, and similar systems!

Regards, Abraham
 

Speedy

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I think one of most impressive "secret weapons" was US Army project OICW from the late 1990s. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/oicw.htm . If succeed, it would be revolution in small arms design.
 

smurf

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Has anyone any information about the Russel Robinson SR Model 11 and SR Model 16, please?
From FWA Hobart's Pictorial History of the sub-machine gun:
The idea was to eliminate the high impulse peaks which occurred every time the gun fired and to make a smooth averaged rearward push.
[also] to eliminate the twist imparted to the weapon by the bullet ... ...by means of a thread on the outside of the barrel.

There is about half a page more description and a picture of the Model 11, [like a slightly enlarged Browning automatic with a protruding barrel looking a little like a 1/2 inch drill bit], but nothing much on the Model 16 which could also be fired single shot effectively, but my scanner is out of action at the moment. I have never seen another mention of this interesting weapon. Does anyone know if anything came of it after the UK tests in 1944?
Robinson, an Australian, later worked on the CR-26, a 26mm Colt rival to the Bushmaster weapon programme.
 

Firefly 2

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What about the SPIW!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Purpose_Individual_Weapon

This I like, was there ever a Soviet counterpart?
 

Speedy

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Firefly said:
What about the SPIW!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Purpose_Individual_Weapon

It is one of my favourites "secret weapons" :) very futuristic and innovating. Some elements first designed in this project (rifle+grenade launcher combo) stay today common infantry weapon. Maybe in future, when personal armor would be perfected, also needs for fletchette bullets coming back ...?


Firefly said:
This I like, was there ever a Soviet counterpart?

Russians also works on fletchette rounds in the 1960s. They try to build something different than SPIW: a long range sniper weapon. But fletchettes aren't sufficiently accurate for this and the project was dropped. Soviet fletchettes were a little "bulky", shorter and thicker than U.S.counterparts.
AFAIK there was made a small batch of fletchette hunting "rifles", luxury finished, as a gifts for communist party leaders, cosmonauts and other Soviet VIPs.
 

Firefly 2

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Speedy said:
I think one of most impressive "secret weapons" was US Army project OICW from the late 1990s. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/oicw.htm . If succeed, it would be revolution in small arms design.

The plug has been pulled on this project for quite a while now, I'm afraid.
 

FarSight

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recoilless mortars and rifles

US Chemical Warfare Service developed special recoilless mortars during the world war II. This first weapon was tripod mounted 4.2-inch mortar.

http://www.mortarsinminiature.com/images/M4%204.2-RM-5.jpg

http://www.mortarsinminiature.com/images/M4%204.2-RM-1.jpg

Designer of this weapon seems to have been Dr. Clarence Hickman who also worked with Robert Goddard. I have also seen a reference to 60mm bipod mounted version.

"Recoilless weapons had been investigated by the American Army in WWI. In WWII the idea was revived by the Germans, the British and then by the Ordnance Department. When the CWS began development of a horizontal mortar, it realized that the principle involved in a recoilless gun might be applied and, in October 1943, Gen. Kabrich asked Dr. C. N. Hickman, chief of section H, division 3, NDRC, to undertake the development of a mortar having no recoil. That same month, the first recoilless attachment to fit on the breech of the standard mortar was designed and, in November, firing trials were started.

Step by step, the ignition system, firing mechanism, reaction chamber and shell were perfected. The shell was fired in the usual manner. A small rocket, called a rocket driver by the designers, was attached to the fuze. When the mortar was fired, the rocket driver hurled the shell back into the barrel where it struck the firing pin. The firing pin then detonated the propellant charge and started the shell forward. The rocket driver fell off while the shell was in the air, exposing the fuze."

http://www.4point2.org/mortar42.htm


But the most interesting weapon is described in this patent:

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT2515180

It seems to describe a shoulder fired recoilless infantry rifle and the designer is Maurice E. Barker of United States Army. I did some detective work concerning this person and i found this PDF:

http://www.cheg.uark.edu/academy/documents/BarkerMauriceEugene.pdf

Does anyone have any information about this weapon? Did it ever even evolve into a real thing?
 

amsci99

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Anyone remember the combination assault rifle/RPG modular weapon system on the Sharkit News site that was a DGR/East German project. Could never find any information about it.
 

FarSight

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BEGLEITMISCHGEWEHR 70 and Burney .270 rifle

I too remember this interesting weapon and to me it's somewhat similar to the weapon described in the patent by M. E. Barker.

http://renax.club.fr/sharkit/begleit/begleit.htm

Honestly, i have a really bad feeling about this. There should be far more information available if it was a real project...

Speaking of odd rifles, there was an interesting .270 high/low-pressure infantry rifle by Charles Burney, the inventor of Burney recoilless rifles, during or immediately after the WWII. There seems to have been some discussion in the IAA forum:

http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4696&sid=7034958736cafe67f79805b8702eb65e

But that's about everything i have...
 

red admiral

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Italian shoulder-fired anti-tank weapon from 1943. Uses high-low pressure system and a 70mm diameter barrel to fire a HEAT shell. More details in text. Unfortunately I don't have a higher res version.

ARMAGUERRA CREMONA OG44 from here

In 1944, during the last months of World War 2, when northern Italy was occupied by the Nazi German troops and admininstrated by the pupeet-state of the RSI ("Repubblica Sociale Italiana", ITALIAN SOCIAL REPUBLIC, also known in Italy as the REPUBLIC OF SALO', the name taken from the small city which was the capitol of this "new country" actually a new fascist state ruled by Benito Mussolini), the italian engineer GIOVANNI OLIANI created an interesting "automatic muskeet" (this was the name given at that time in Italy to the "large-sized submachineguns") in 9x19mm-Parabellum caliber which several prototypes were built by the ARMAGUERRA plant located in the town of Cremona. It never entered mass production, however, due to both the end of WW-2 and to the massive concurrence of the well-known BERETTA products.

This weapon however represented a massive step forward respect to the WW2-era submachinegun technology, introducing the "slender frame: in fact, it was approximately configured in an "L" shape, which SHORTER part was the FACE of the weapon, including the striking pin in it; when firing, the weight of the LONGER part of the L-shape, and consequently the greatest part of the weapons' mass, "moved" towards the barrel, thus BALANCING it during sustained fully-automatic fire.
Such tehcnical engineering masterpiece has been later copied by others and most famous submachineguns, such as the italian FRANCHI LF57 and the german WALTHER MP-L.

The ARMAGUERRA OG-44 was gas-operated and selective-fire (with a Cyclic Rate of 500 Rounds Per Minute), it had ventilation holes on the handguard that were a consequence of the construction method, it was made by stampings from a single 1'5 Millimeters tick steel sheet. Fixed wooden buttstocks and folding metal stocks were both available.

According to the original project, the ARMAGUERRA OG-44 had to be fed by proprietary 25-rounds magazines, but, to accelerate an eventual adoption procedure by the Armed Forces, it was engineered to accept the widespread and well-known BERETTA 20, 30 and 40-rounders.

The ARMAGUERRA OG-44 had a 292 Millimeters long barrel, a 788 Millimeters total lenght and weighted 3'5 Kilograms when unloaded.
 

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Michel Van

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Re: BEGLEITMISCHGEWEHR 70 and Burney .270 rifle

FarSight said:
I too remember this interesting weapon and to me it's somewhat similar to the weapon described in the patent by M. E. Barker.

http://renax.club.fr/sharkit/begleit/begleit.htm

Honestly, i have a really bad feeling about this. There should be far more information available if it was a real project...

I belief that not real
I never heard of a gun called BEGLEITMISCHGEWEHR in Germany or DDR
the design of this weapon not functional
even the name make no sense: Accompany Mix Rifle (translate from German)
 

FarSight

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Flaming Bayonet

Flaming bayonet was a special assault flamethrower designed by US Army Chemical Service during the Great War. It can be described as a normal bayonet married to a propellant canister. Technology was lacking however and this invention never reached the frontline.

More info at:

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/knife_knotes_5.htm

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/Flaming_Bayo_a.jpg
 

amsci99

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Here's a picture of one of those flechette shooting protoypes in 10 mm, designed to be fired from the AO-27 weapon. Please credit the attached pic to my friend Max Popenker from world.guns.ru

[/quote]

Russians also works on fletchette rounds in the 1960s. They try to build something different than SPIW: a long range sniper weapon. But fletchettes aren't sufficiently accurate for this and the project was dropped. Soviet fletchettes were a little "bulky", shorter and thicker than U.S.counterparts.
AFAIK there was made a small batch of fletchette hunting "rifles", luxury finished, as a gifts for communist party leaders, cosmonauts and other Soviet VIPs.
[/quote]
 

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moin1900

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Re: Firearms secret projects (Hand-Föhn)

Hi everybody

"Hand-Föhn" very similar to the "Luftfaust" only with 3 barrels of 73mm-caliber.
I have read about this project here
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/flugabwehrwaffen-R.htm

Is there anybody who has got a Picture or Drawing of it ?

Many greetings and thanks in advance
 

moin1900

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Hi everybody

I have found some really interesting ! A PANZERFAUST made of bamboo
http://www.ww2technik.de/sites/jappak/behelfspanzerfaust.htm
P.S. What about the HAND-FÖHN

Many greetings
 

Just call me Ray

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moin1900 said:
Hi everyone

I have found some really interesting !!
A PANZERFAUST made of bamboo :eek: :eek: :eek:

Someone's been watching Star Trek's "The Arena" too much :p

But seriously, the basic concept is sound, it's just a tube for a rocket after all. Though I didn't know Germany was known for its lush, expansive bamboo forests....
 

moin1900

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Hi everybody

It is not a german weapon!

Please look here for English version
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3956&page=2

Japanese provisional Panzerfaust
“In 1944 investigations were made by the Army Headquater if a serial production of the german Panzerfaust 100 is possible. Due to the lack of raw materials and industrial ressources a production seemed impossible.

In early1945 guidelines for the defence departments of all prefectures were published how to built weapons for militia units using natural materials. Under these guidelines was one concerning the development and production of Panzerfaust-type at-weapons.

for the barrel bamboo should be used. The inner walls should be drilled out, in order to receive a continuous pipe of about 950 mm. A basket made of bamboo fibers installed at the front end should increase accuracy.

The grenade should be made of a bamboo shaft with a diameter, which had to fit into the bamboo launcher tube, and an up to 300 mm long hollow-charge warhead made of wood or sheet metal usind a steel or copper cone. The propellant charge should have a weight of between 30 and 40 g, the weight of the explosive filling should not exceed 1 kg.

A penetration of 100 mm should be reached in trials. The weapons should be manufactured by local factories and craftsmen.”

Many greetings
 

moin1900

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Hi everybody

Here are some good images from the Luftfaust A, Fliegerfaust and their projectiles!
http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/12543

I am still searching for the Hand-Föhn !

Many greetings
 

moin1900

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Re: Firearms secret projects (Panzerfaust Projects)

Hi everybody

I have got found some Panzerfaust Projects that I do not know
Brandfaust, Flammenfaust, Gasfaust, Schrappnellfaust

Is there somebody who can help me with these projects ?
Maybe with a Picture?
Here are a few articles about them
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust2.htm

Thanks in advance
 

Ranger6

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moin1900 said:
"Panzerfaust 250 with strange Warhead ? (the first one) (what is it?)"

Moin,

I'm not sure that the photo is actually of a PZF-250 -- it may be an early RPG-2 (which was based on the PZF-250, with some important modifications). I believe the top round is a training round, but I'm not 100% sure (such a round was availabnle for the RPG-2, but I've never seen a picture!).

Hope this helps.

Ranger6
 

FarSight

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Hungarian rocket weapons

Hungary also developed some quite advanced AT-weapons at last stages of the war. Sites are in hungarian so...

http://www.dws.xip.pl/bron/wegry/we36.html

http://militiahungarorum.extra.hu/1920_f_k_rv_l_6.html

44M kézi rakétaveto rocket launcher seems to be a hybrid of bazooka and panzerscreck. Caliber is 60mm and maximum penetration is 100mm of armor with an effective range of 150 meters. It seems to have been developed in autumn of 1944.

http://www.dws.xip.pl/bron/wegry/we53.html

44M buzogányveto páncéltöro rakéta is a heavy anti-tank rocket launcher. Diameter of the shaped charge warhead is obviously 300mm and it should have had penetration of 160mm of armor.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

In 1944 development started on acoustically guided air-to-air missile named Lidérc. AFAIK it was to be tube launched and carrier aircraft should have been Me-210.

http://www.haditechnika.hu/Tortenet/Tuzerseg/LidercRepuloraketa.htm

http://www.haditechnika.hu/Tortenet/Tuzerseg/LidercRepuloraketa_elemei/image004.jpg

http://www.haditechnika.hu/Tortenet/Tuzerseg/LidercRepuloraketa_elemei/image004.jpg

I think it is quite impressive!
 

Grzesio

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Panzerfaust 250 with strange Warhead ? (the first one) (what is it?)
http://talks.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/000475/475761.jpg
The picture shows the PzF 250 indeed. The pointed projectile is a typical shaped charge shell for Panzerfausts 150 and 250, equipped with a fragmentation jacket.
The second projectile is just the Splitterfaust shell - although it's always seen with Pzf 100 or 150 type launcher (as the 250 was never completed during the war). I just wonder if it's the same weapon as the Schrapnellfaust - the latter had range of 400 m and a warhead detonated by a time fuse a couple of meters above the ground. Hahn says, 100 were delivered for troop trials. On the other hand, Splitterfaust was equipped with the usual FPZ 8001 impact fuse, as other PzFs - this weapon was built and tested - according to an unsupported tale, in 1945 it was field tested too.

Regards

Grzesio
 

moin1900

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Hi everybody

To Ranger6: Sorry ! It is not a RPG-2 .

To FarSight: "I think it is quite impressive!"
It is !! Thanks for information about these for me very unknown projects!

To Grzesio: Thank you for this very good information about the Splitterfaust shell!!
"I just wonder if it's the same weapon as the Schrapnellfaust"
I wonder about it,too.

And what about the others,Brandfaust etc. ?

Many greetings
 

Grzesio

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Hungary also developed some quite advanced AT-weapons at last stages of the war. Sites are in hungarian so...
Two of them are in Polish. ;)
Here's something in English:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=81303&p=728750

What troubles me with the Schrapnellfaust is the range - 400 m seems to much for the existing Panzerfaust launchers (as we have in mind that the weapon was apparently tested). PzF 100 m had max. range of some 280 m, while PzF 150 m approx. 300 m (what is suspiciously short).
I have no slightest idea about other versions mentioned - I think they probably never went beyond initial conceptual stage. But there were apparently other versions planned or tested, e.g. rocket assisted Panzerfaust. 8)

Regards

Grzesio
 

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The supposed Panzerfaust 250 picture is in fact of a Pzf 250 12" action figure accessory made by italian garage kit firm Twisting Toyz
 

moin1900

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Hi everybody

To Grzesio:
Thank you for information about that! Are there any other informations or
pictures of the "rocket assisted Panzerfaust"?

Can you tell me more about these Rockets on your little pic!
I think the first one is the Rheinkind ! And the other ?

To Cobra Kebab: Sorry ! I know it ! But I have not found another picture, so…

Thanks in advance
 

Grzesio

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Sadly, I don't know much about Panzerfaust derivatives. Anyway, towards the end of the war, HASAG was investigating increasing Panzerfaust's range - this included different multi-chamber propellant charges or additional rocket propulsion, what could double the range.
There was also a 76 mm splinter rocket with concrete warhead developed, fired from a standard PzF launcher; it could be even tested in some small numbers.

Regards

Grzesio

PS The rockets are: one of Rheinkind representations on the left, one of known Kurt versions on the right and a barely visible Rheintochter R 1 in the background. :)
 

moin1900

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To Grzesio: "Sadly, I don't know much about Panzerfaust derivatives." "No problem !"
Thanks a lot for describing the Picture! Wow, this version of the Kurt is very new for me!
Thanks
 

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Very strange design by Swedish company Interdynamics:
( all from world.guns.ru):

Interdynamics MKS

interdynamics_mks.jpg


MKS rifle MKS carbine
Caliber 5.56x45 mm
Action Gas operated, rotating bolt
Overall length (butt open / folded) 868 / 634 mm 751 / 517 mm
Barrel length 467 mm 350 mm
Weight 2,75 kg 2,36 kg
Rate of fire 750 - 1100 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity 30 rounds

The Interdynamics AB company of Sweden attempted to enter an assault rifle market with its MKS rifle in mid-1970s. The Interdynamics MKS assault rifle was more or less conventional in respect to materials and technologies, but layout was not conventional, with box magazine serving as a pistol grip. This layout resulted in shorter overall length when compared to conventional rifles with the same barrel lengths, but seriously compromised ergonomics. Because the standard 5.56mm magazine is significantly deeper 9front to back) than a typical pistol grip, the firing hand's hold and a trigger reach were far from being comfortable. The MKS rifles never were made in any quantities and deserved its place in firearm history more as a curiosity than anything else.

The Interdynamics MKS assault rifle was a gas operated selective fired weapon with rotating barrel locking. Gas system featured a gas regulator. The receiver was made from stamped sheet steel, magazine housing served as a pistol grip. The skeletonized buttstock folded to the right side to save the space. The L-shaped flip-up rear sight has two range settings, for 250 and 400 meters. Carbine version of MKS rifle featured shorter barrel, otherwise being similar to rifle version.
 

Abraham Gubler

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Firefly 2 said:
Very strange design by Swedish company Interdynamics:
( all from world.guns.ru):

Interdynamics MKS

The designer of this weapon George Kellgren has now immigrated to the USA where he runs Kel-Tec and has kept working in rimfire weapons including a 30 shot .22 WMR (5.7x27mm) pistol:

PMR30_8179.jpg
 

Abraham Gubler

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Cutaway said:
Armtech C30R:

Great! Aussie caseless! The breach busrting C30R… Designed by Charles St. George who evolved it from his conventional brass case 5.56x45mm M17S rifle later sold to Bushmaster in the USA. St. George had previously designed the Leader assault rifle and is Australia's leading weapons designer in the modern era. He recently went off the deep end promoting the pseudo science centrifugal weapon “DREAD”. An unfortunately occurrence that most contemporary Australian small arms “designs” are pseudo science…
 

Abraham Gubler

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Firefly 2 said:
Interdynamics MKS

Here is a comparative picture (not online) of 7.62x51mm, 5.56x45mm Centrefires and the 4.5x26mm Rimfire round developed by Interdymaic (Kellgren) for the MKR.
 

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saintkatanalegacy

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AICW and the AK-47's competitor
 

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Does anybody knows about the RHINO program ? , it was for an advanced shotgun. If I remember correctly the initials were for : Repeater Handheld Improved Non rifled Ordenance.
 

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