There's allot more than that. Number of missiles, BM capability, ASROC, radar, ASW quieting, ASW capability, cooperative engagement capability, future HEL to name a few.
No, the doctrinal and definitional difference between an FFG and an FF is area guided missiles. That's it.

See the Perry FFG-7 class versus the Knox FF-1052 class.

Knox had the top of the line air search radar of the time. Both had hull sonars and both had towed arrays.

A modern front-line warship needs ballistic missile defense capabilities. We can argue whether a frigate needs BMD at all since frigates aren't front-line warships, but if you mean "should the frigates have Aegis and SPY6" that answer has been decided as yes. Everything in the USN but LCS is getting Aegis and SPY6, it's a policy thing. (And LCS doesn't physically have the space for even the littlest SPY6 version anyways)
 
A modern front-line warship needs ballistic missile defense capabilities.

What does a modern third-line warship need? Because that's what the U.S. lacks. BMD can be easily provided by a single Burke. Unfortunately, almost nothing but a Burke can do something as banal as "VBSS" or "Tomahawk".

FFX is just going to be a surface attack version of a Knox, but instead of a SQS-26, there's a TLAM box and some random anti-ship missiles.
 
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What do you think LCS is?
Sounds like a 3rd line warship needs to escort tankers through the Strait of Hormuz.

So if a Burke does BMD, you are still defending against various forms of artillery/rockets in a swarm combined with potentially cruise missiles and/or aerial drones and decoys, and likely some kamikaze speedboats. That means layered defence because leakers are guaranteed and not always with much warning. Without layers of pretty efficient anti-drone weapons you are looking at some expensive engagements and could exhaust your RAM launchers pretty quickly.
 
No, the doctrinal and definitional difference between an FFG and an FF is area guided missiles. That's it.

See the Perry FFG-7 class versus the Knox FF-1052 class.

Knox had the top of the line air search radar of the time. Both had hull sonars and both had towed arrays.
With respect, I think this thread is increasingly falling into the trap of using outdated doctrines and ideas. The doctrinal and definitional differences between a Knox or Perry, and a Constellation are vast, in much the same way we cannot directly compare an Arleigh Burke to a Charles F. Adams (even if the Flight I Burkes were built to replace the CFAs, Farraguts, etc.)
 
What do you think LCS is?

Expensive, overly emphasizing mobility, unreliable, undermanned, and lacking in most areas necessary besides sensor fit and aviation capability? Did I get it right?

Sounds like a 3rd line warship needs to escort tankers through the Strait of Hormuz.

Escorting tankers through the Strait of Hormuz is something Europe or China would need to do. The U.S. just needs to hit targets.
 
Expensive
Compared to what?
overly emphasizing mobility
It's easy to make these judgements in hindsight. Hindsight allows many criticisms to be leveled at the USN and Congress but also allows us to acknowledge how much better off the US Navy is than it could have been
unreliable
The Independence class is currently operating in the Middle East and the MCM module is completely operational. Freedoms run into typical FMM problems so no objections there. It's probably better to treat the classes as individuals than just LCS at this point
lacking in most areas necessary besides sensor fit and aviation capability
What do you think a third line warship is??? An Arleigh Burke???
Escorting tankers through the Strait of Hormuz is something Europe or China would need to do. The U.S. just needs to hit targets.
This is genuinely schizophrenic
 
Compared to what?

NSC.

It's easy to make these judgements in hindsight.

It was a criticism when the ship was being designed. Turns out their high speed isn't actually useful because they aren't zipping between theaters. It was an okay idea that wasn't actually useful in real life.

Hindsight allows many criticisms to be leveled at the USN and Congress but also allows us to acknowledge how much better off the US Navy is than it could have been

Which is exactly why LCS is now off the table.

The Independence class is currently operating in the Middle East and the MCM module is completely operational.

Cool. The modules can be repurposed for LUSV.

What do you think a third line warship is??? An Arleigh Burke???

An NSC with some TLAMs, a Seahawk hangar and room for VBSS teams, and maybe some ESSMs.

This is genuinely schizophrenic

There is no particular reason for the United States to escort shipping out of the Strait of Hormuz.

It's energy independent and, if it needs to, it can simply purchase or bribe ship crews through CIA slush funds to build a ghost fleet to surge energy from Texas to Japan or Taiwan or Europe. Middle Eastern oil is a thing that China most of all, and Europe secondarily, need. The U.S. still needs a presence in CENTCOM to stop the PRC from getting oil, but beyond that, it doesn't really need to do anything about the ships.

If the Europeans want to escort shipping, they can, but it's not the 1980s anymore. Europe certainly has enough ships to do it. As it stands, the Iranians are doing a pretty bad job of closing the strait anyway, so it's not even particularly concerning, and unless oil hits like $250/bbl it won't even be as bad as 2008 before the U.S. can wiggle its way out with Venezuela oil deals or building an East-West Saudi pipeline to a large capacity terminal. Chinese and Iranian flagged tankers are passing through fine every day simply because the Iranians are being very selective in their targets.

The only reason the U.S. is actually going to do it is because I'm pretty sure Hegseth and Trump haven't realized 1986 was 40 years ago, they probably think it was like 15 or 20, so they're just crudely following the playbook of Praying Mantis and ODS.
 
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Is this a joke? I genuinely ask this because the average unit cost of a Legend is $670 million USD compared to what, less than $580 per Independence? Ok, you can definitely argue the last NSCs were less expensive by roughly $23 million USD but that comes at the cost of aviation facilities, stealth characteristics, self defense capability, MCM and surface warfare capability.
Cool. The modules can be repurposed for LUSV.
What do you think the MCM module uses lmfao
An NSC with some TLAMs, a Seahawk hangar and room for VBSS teams, and maybe some ESSMs.
FF(X)s strongest soldier I guess but idk how that detracts from LCS as a third rate surface combatant
It's energy independent and, if it needs to, it can simply purchase or bribe ship crews through CIA slush funds to build a ghost fleet to surge energy from Texas to Japan or Taiwan or Europe. Middle Eastern oil is a thing that China most of all, and Europe secondarily, need. The U.S. still needs a presence in CENTCOM to stop the PRC from getting oil, but beyond that, it doesn't really need to do anything about the ships.

As it stands, the Iranians are doing a pretty bad job of closing the strait though, so it's not even particularly concerning.
Oh god, literally acting as though the FFTS threat environment is real and still schizophrenic
 
Is this a joke?

No. The LCS ships are pretty dramatic failures. It would take more effort to fix them than it would to fix the Connies.

I genuinely ask this because the average unit cost of a Legend is $670 million USD compared to what, less than $580 per Independence? Ok, you can definitely argue the last NSCs were less expensive by roughly $23 million USD but that comes at the cost of aviation facilities, stealth characteristics, self defense capability, MCM and surface warfare capability.

That's cool but that has nothing to do with the cost of re-engineering the LCS into viable ships for the job. They're simply not built for it.

What do you think the MCM module uses lmfao

Something that will go on the LUSV when the LCS classes go to the breakers sometime next decade, ideally.

FF(X)s strongest soldier I guess but idk how that detracts from LCS as a third rate surface combatant

Because LCS was built for a world that never happened and its CONOPS never worked out in practice. They're barely functional pieces of garbage that spend more time pier side than not and will likely be destroyed within a few months of serious conflict. I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with them.

Admittedly I like the lines on the LCS-2 but everything inside, and about, the ship is a mess. It has about 100 too few crew to do anything, it's cramped and difficult to maintain due to its awkward narrow hull designed for high speed (this is both for LCS-1 and -2), and it requires bloated contractor support in a manner similar to F-35 due to the lean manning. That drives the cost up massively.

There's a reason the USAF took control of the IP and TDPs from Boeing when it signed on for NGAD, and the same for B-21, because it didn't want another F-35 and the mess of ALIS and contractor support. That's why the F-35 in US service is sitting at 50% MC rate. Israel, which also operates F-35, has their own depots and works it more like an F-15E than whatever Lockheed demanded, which is why they have 90% MC rates.

For a similar bundle of reasons the USN is taking full ownership of FFX and intends to make it a very boring ship comparable to something like the Gowind, the MEKO, etc. instead of asking Austal and Lockheed to sell them a good package deal. The things that spawned the ships of the 00s and the early GWOT were dumb ideas that probably shouldn't have happened, with the exception of Zumwalt and the San Antonios which both could have been done better but are otherwise excellent hulls, because the ideas behind LCS weren't very good.

It will potentially turn out that it is cheaper to make 50+ ships of a modest design rather than 30 speedboats, assuming the USN intends to build ships through 2050, and right now they do. It's entirely possible that FFX, DDGX and BBGX all fail, in which case the US Navy can just pack up and leave Asia, because it won't have anything else on the table to bring out going into the latter half of this century.

FFX is literally a do-or-die ship which is why it's so aggressive in its austerity. Well, aggressive for Americans, but it's just a normal frigate to literally anyone else in the world. If it dies, then the US will likely need to give up EUCOM, AFRICOM and CENTCOM to buy back the escorts to fight in INDOPACCOM, when that fight comes. Which means giving it up to an adversarial power if the US-EU rivalry ever rears its head again.

Oh god, literally acting as though the FFTS threat environment is real and still schizophrenic

What does that have to do with the price of shale in Texas?
 
Apparently this has been explained to you before so I won’t bother rehashing it, just want to point out this gem:

If it dies, then the US will likely need to give up EUCOM, AFRICOM and CENTCOM to buy back the escorts to fight in INDOPACCOM, when that fight comes. Which means giving it up to an adversarial power if the US-EU rivalry ever rears its head again

Girl I’m so lost and I fear you are too
 
There is an FF(X) thread and an LCS thread for debates on them. This is the FFG(X) thread. These arguments are unrelated to the topic.

If there has been any lessons derived from Operation Epic Fury is the need for drones patrolling the waves around shipping. Both small craft and miniature submarines pose threats to unprotected targets. Unmanned vessels and aircraft for this role need to be put into service yesterday.

While not a single warship has been hit, there is ample reason to automate more CIWS and perimeter defenses into future warships. Italian FREMM using an inline pair of 76mm rapidfire cannons with optional VULCANO rounds is pointing in the direction that one main air defense-capable gun is not enough. And I think they are right. If anything, the Phalanx CIWS or better should be on each ship quadrant and at least one SeaRAM on each hemisphere. I would want at lease one Phalanx (or Goalkeeper or DARDO) on each side (or end) of the ship. Perpindicular to the Phalanx could be Mark 110 57mm, OTO Super Rapido, or Bushmaster 50 mm-based C-RAM. And I wouldn't consider DS30M Mark 2 or HEL as a substitute, so some of these should be mounted, too.

And I believe they need a larger gun for defeating larger AShMs and perhaps ballistic missiles that have the tendency to shrug off lasers and Iron Dome type defenses. The larger guns seem pretty useless for LOS fire against speedboats, so less focus on fighting speedboats with them. And larger guns do not have the range to lay down barrages on a beach, so again less emphasis on that role. Two roles they can do well is (1) provide high kinetic energy at a LOS target and (2) kill targets of opportunity at closer ranges than for which they carry missiles. So neutering ballistic missiles and pounding sea platforms are pretty effective usage cases. FFG(X) should imho carry a high angle capable main gun somewhere between 90 mm and the 127 mm. I am fine with neither FF(X) nor FFG(X) carrying the Mark 45 5-inch/54-caliber, but I do not believe the Mark 110 or Super Rapido fulfill the role.

While I want a gun to be able to target ballistic missiles, we do not need the BMD radar on these ships. A combination of offboard sensors and a distributed EOTS should be able to get the gun cued on target.
 
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I think that’s a very bold assumption on the basis of little information . Gun based point defence is known to be fairly useless against modern missile threats which is why the USN is going so hard on RAM for DDG(X). 5in HVPs and 57mm ALaMO is fine against drones. Planned railgun integration for DDG(X), DEW integration for LCS, Burke, and DDG(X), etc. are all more than adequate
 
The only useless gun-based point defense is the correct one not on board because a bean counter said so. You cannot deploy what you did not bring to the fight.

Currently the biggest threats to shipping are ballistic missiles. The benefit is that the ballistic missile threat is so low it's basically not going to disrupt movement. It's the Houthis all over again, but somehow less bad, since they haven't managed to bat at Allied warships yet. In the short term, China might equip Iran with advanced anti-ship missiles (not Saccades) I guess.

The best defense for a merchant vessel would be a combination of decent early warning of ballistic missile launches and tracks, plus a microwave defense against drone attackers, and chaff and flares can handle the rest except torpedoes. Insurance firms won't allow honest to goodness gun armaments but they'll allow armed guards to defend against commando raids based on OEF-HOA expectations.
 
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The only useless gun-based point defense is the correct one not on board because a bean counter said so. You cannot deploy what you did not bring to the fight.
Incorrect. The speed of inbound missiles and the reaction time of gun based PD renders all gun based PD essentially point blank, and thus essentially useless when compared to missile based PD. It is not worth allocating the margins to larger systems for significantly diminishing results over RAM and/or VLS based systems
 
Incorrect. The speed of inbound missiles and the reaction time of gun based PD renders all gun based PD essentially point blank, and thus essentially useless when compared to missile based PD. It is not worth allocating the margins to larger systems for significantly diminishing results over RAM and/or VLS based systems
That is a nonsensical argument. The only knock on gun-based CIWS is their warmup time. While they can operate in automatic mode, they operate best when fed cueing information from the CIC. Putting a single CIWS on a ship in 2026 is a recipe for disaster when it cannot handle the missiles today that can fly programmed flight paths in coordination to arrive at opposite sides of a ship. So two $3 million missiles have near perfect expectation to take down a $3 billion frigate because of a bean counter decision based on a threat matrix being originally assessed from 1987. You build new ships based on current and expected threats.
 
No. The LCS ships are pretty dramatic failures. It would take more effort to fix them than it would to fix the Connies.



That's cool but that has nothing to do with the cost of re-engineering the LCS into viable ships for the job. They're simply not built for it.



Something that will go on the LUSV when the LCS classes go to the breakers sometime next decade, ideally.



Because LCS was built for a world that never happened and its CONOPS never worked out in practice. They're barely functional pieces of garbage that spend more time pier side than not and will likely be destroyed within a few months of serious conflict. I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with them..

It will potentially turn out that it is cheaper to make 50+ ships of a modest design rather than 30 speedboats, assuming the USN intends to build ships through 2050, and right now they do. It's entirely possible that FFX, DDGX and BBGX all fail, in which case the US Navy can just pack up and leave Asia, because it won't have anything else on the table to bring out going into the latter half of this century.

FFX is literally a do-or-die ship which is why it's so aggressive in its austerity.
Have you seen the MMSC frigate for the saudis it’s everything the LCS could have been for 50% the price of a new NSC with nothing added onto it. You’re hallucinating if you think the NSC is cheap. It’s over 1 billion for a new build before we factor in line restart cost and add ons.

The FFx is a useless ship.

Currently the biggest threats to shipping are ballistic missiles. The benefit is that the ballistic missile threat is so low it's basically not going to disrupt movement. It's the Houthis all over again, but somehow less bad, since they haven't managed to bat at Allied warships yet. In the short term, China might equip Iran with advanced anti-ship missiles (not Saccades) I guess.

The best defense for a merchant vessel would be a combination of decent early warning of ballistic missile launches and tracks, plus a microwave defense against drone attackers, and chaff and flares can handle the rest except torpedoes. Insurance firms won't allow honest to goodness gun armaments but they'll allow armed guards to defend against commando raids based on OEF-HOA expectations.
No BM are not the most pressing threat for strait shipping. The launchers are large and limited and will eventually be killed. Mines and drones are the largest threat. They are deploying mines on speed and inflatable boats and drones off of pickup trucks. Good luck killing all of those. This forces you have escorts.

And there’s no operational non prototype microwave defense, plus those are huge
 
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Have you seen the MMSC frigate for the saudis it’s everything the LCS could have been for 50% the price of a new NSC with nothing added onto it. You’re hallucinating if you think the NSC is cheap. It’s over 1 billion for a new build before we factor in line restart cost and add ons.

The FFx is a useless ship.

There's no such thing as a useless ship for the US Navy, which needs ships, because the Constellations were supposed to start deliver this year.

They are deploying mines on speed and inflatable boats and drones off of pickup trucks. Good luck killing allot of those. This forces you have escorts.

That's possibly true but they're also transiting the strait just fine lol.

And there’s no operational non prototype microwave defense, plus those are huge

So are ships! Besides, insurance firms will more readily accept a non-lethal weapon, like LRAD or a big microwave zapper, than a Phalanx which requires technical support from a military or armed forces unit. It's not as if Phalanx would be useful for anything besides literally one or two drones.
 
There is an FF(X) thread and an LCS thread for debates on them. This is the FFG(X) thread. These arguments are unrelated to the topic.

If there has been any lessons derived from Operation Epic Fury is the need for drones patrolling the waves around shipping. Both small craft and miniature submarines pose threats to unprotected targets. Unmanned vessels and aircraft for this role need to be put into service yesterday.
Too bad the whole governmental contracting cycle means that the soonest it'd be possible is in a decade.



While not a single warship has been hit, there is ample reason to automate more CIWS and perimeter defenses into future warships. Italian FREMM using an inline pair of 76mm rapidfire cannons with optional VULCANO rounds is pointing in the direction that one main air defense-capable gun is not enough.
Point of order.

The Italians see the 76mm guns as CIWS.



FFG(X) should imho carry a high angle capable main gun somewhere between 90 mm and the 127 mm. I am fine with neither FF(X) nor FFG(X) carrying the Mark 45 5-inch/54-caliber, but I do not believe the Mark 110 or Super Rapido fulfill the role.
Show me a naval gun between 90 and 127mm in current production.



While I want a gun to be able to target ballistic missiles, we do not need the BMD radar on these ships. A combination of offboard sensors and a distributed EOTS should be able to get the gun cued on target.
Aegis is NOT a BMD system. Not when we're talking about 9RMA SPY6 antennas.
 
There's no such thing as a useless ship for the US Navy, which needs ships, because the Constellations were supposed to start deliver this year.
There are definitely useless and even ships with negative utility. Ones that take money, attention, political captial, and time away from other classes that need to be built while not being able to fulfill any of the currently needed roles along with decades of maintaince and crewing requirements.

The Iran war is basically as permissive of an environment as possible for a conflict necessitating ships and you still wouldn't have a role for FF(x) in this conflict that couldn't be fulfilled by LCS.

Also I'll claim that no FF(X) will enter the water before the first of the remaining FFG(x) build.

So are ships! Besides, insurance firms will more readily accept a non-lethal weapon, like LRAD or a big microwave zapper, than a Phalanx which requires technical support from a military or armed forces unit. It's not as if Phalanx would be useful for anything besides literally one or two drones.
Insurance firms won't insure ships going through the straits alone at this point period. There's even questions of will they do it with a military escort right now. Come talk to me about microwave weapons when there's something more than prototypes. They are years behind HEL in maturity at this point.
 
With respect, I think this thread is increasingly falling into the trap of using outdated doctrines and ideas. The doctrinal and definitional differences between a Knox or Perry, and a Constellation are vast, in much the same way we cannot directly compare an Arleigh Burke to a Charles F. Adams (even if the Flight I Burkes were built to replace the CFAs, Farraguts, etc.)
We absolutely can compare their positions in the fleet as a whole. What job the ships are supposed to do. Their relative radar and other equipment fits.
 
We absolutely can compare their positions in the fleet as a whole. What job the ships are supposed to do. Their relative radar and other equipment fits.

We can't because we know what the baseline for combat escort in the XXI is: it's a Burke, or something so close to a Burke that a ship that meets that requirement costs about as much as one. The USN has plenty of Burkes. What it needs now isn't a fleet escort. It needs something to do things besides fleet escort.

The proper analogy to be using are Fletchers off of Yankee Station I guess? Looking further back, it's the Asiatic Fleet's gunboats or the Clemsons. It needs a cheap, disposable, actually attritable small combatant for theaters that aren't part of the active combat zone but still need policing.

An FFX with LUSV augments is that. It's not quite as "capable" as an LCS squadron, or as capable as one imagined would be, but it's fine.

Insurance firms won't insure ships going through the straits alone at this point period.

Correct. Which makes the self-escorting tanker something of a moot point.
 
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Should the Navy buy a bunch of cheap yachts? Those are ships.

The alternative is buying FFX, and winning WW3 conventionally, or not buying FFX and trying to win with too few escorts while leaning on nuclear weapons to reduce the PLAN's conventional fleet force superiority. You might not even escape the latter with FFX, but maybe you'll have enough Burkes in theater to beat the PLAN, though who really knows. It seems important to standardize on an SSC hull like we've standardize on the Burke for LSC though.

Anyway those Damen Protectors would be cool if the USN needs a Caribbean Squadron!
 
The alternative is buying FFX, and winning WW3 conventionally, or not buying FFX and trying to win with too few escorts while leaning on nuclear weapons to reduce the PLAN's conventional fleet force superiority. You might not even escape the latter with FFX, but maybe you'll have enough Burkes in theater to beat the PLAN, though who really knows. It seems important to standardize on an SSC hull like we've standardize on the Burke for LSC though.

Anyway those Damen Protectors would be cool if the USN needs a Caribbean Squadron!
The difference is you think FFX is useful, the majority of us think it's a net negative to buy them.
 
The difference is you think FFX is useful, the majority of us think it's a net negative to buy them.

As opposed to what? A ship that doesn't work on the best of days (LCS), 50% of a Burke for 80% of the cost (FFG-62), or more Burkes? Lol.

The good part is that FFX will actually have hands on deck for damage control and a decent powerplant. The bad part is it's otherwise an LCS.
 
As opposed to what? A ship that doesn't work on the best of days (LCS), 50% of a Burke for 80% of the cost (FFG-62), or more Burkes? Lol.

The good part is that FFX will actually have hands on deck for damage control and a decent powerplant. The bad part is it's otherwise an LCS.
You buy MMSC (much cheaper and more capable with an active production line), wait for FFGX (which I believe will enter the water before FFX and cost similarly), try a buy from Japan/Europe and or build those domestically with minimal to no modification this time, or see what Gibbs and Cox has already designed and build that eg: the Taiwanese light frigate.

Also the Indepednece class works fine.
 
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We can't because we know what the baseline for combat escort in the XXI is: it's a Burke, or something so close to a Burke that a ship that meets that requirement costs about as much as one. The USN has plenty of Burkes. What it needs now isn't a fleet escort. It needs something to do things besides fleet escort.

The proper analogy to be using are Fletchers off of Yankee Station I guess? Looking further back, it's the Asiatic Fleet's gunboats or the Clemsons. It needs a cheap, disposable, actually attritable small combatant for theaters that aren't part of the active combat zone but still need policing.

An FFX with LUSV augments is that. It's not quite as "capable" as an LCS squadron, or as capable as one imagined would be, but it's fine.
Correct, FFGX and FFX are NOT combat escorts. The place they fit into the fleet is far away from whatever passes for the front lines, protecting from a raiding submarine. Not escorting a carrier group.

IMO the proper fleet design is a bunch of FFGs and an absolute shit-ton of ASW 3XL-USVs** that tow sonars and maybe have ASW VTOL UAVs. They have about 16x VLS cells for at least 6x ASROC-type weapons*** and all the rest is for ESSMs. Something like the Type 07 ASROC with over 30km range could replace a torpedo-carrying ASW UAV.

** How many of these 3XL-USVs? enough that every warship in the entire USN has 3 little friends with it 24/7, plus a few extra for your combat logistics convoys.

*** IIRC proper engagement with ASROCs is dropping 3 weapons around the target, so you really do need 6 as your minimum loadout. I think I'd actually prefer 9 or 10 ASROCs and 24-28x ESSMs as my design weapons loadout.

Harpoons or NSM/JSMs optional on the 3XL-USVs. They will need counter-Sahed weapons as well.
 
Correct, FFGX and FFX are NOT combat escorts.

I have said this multiple times but FFGX was an attempt to correct the deficiencies of the LCS for fighting in INDOPACCOM.

It failed because it turns out those deficiencies added up to something that costs basically the same as a Burke and is about the same size (FFG-62 is fairly overweight). It probably wouldn't have failed if NAVSEA had in-house NAME for surface escorts but that was divested in the 1990's to pay for carrier and submarine design groups.

FFX is taking the current capabilities of LCS and putting them on a hull that actually works and isn't a human factors torture chamber.

It's a pretty modest design, and if it gets ordered in quantity, it will be a good replacement for the LCS that are doomed in any case.

The place they fit into the fleet is far away from whatever passes for the front lines, protecting from a raiding submarine.

Not even. They're simply not escorts. They're colonial gunboats. They might get self-defense capability at some point (50 km ESSM) maybe.

The first two are going to be regular NSCs.

IMO the proper fleet design is a bunch of FFGs

Yes, the Burke is the FFG in real terms. It's the bare minimum for carrier escort nowadays.

and an absolute shit-ton of ASW 3XL-USVs** that tow sonars and maybe have ASW VTOL UAVs.

I don't think USVs are as useful for fleet operations in INDOPACCOM as they are in other theaters. What you'll get is whatever Burkes can be scraped from AFRICOM, SOUTHCOM and EUCOM anyway. All the FFX and LUSV stuff is for after the war with the PLAN, assuming the US wins, or loses and somehow still has an empire to police.

Harpoons or NSM/JSMs optional on the 3XL-USVs. They will need counter-Sahed weapons as well.

Well, America likely has a war with China in the meantime, so hopefully it'll know more about what SSC/LCS/FFX actually need after that. One thing we can say is that LCS doesn't have enough crew, and likely not enough reserve buoyancy, to survive a missile attack. They're no Stark!
 
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I have said this multiple times but FFGX was an attempt to correct the deficiencies of the LCS for fighting in INDOPACCOM.
This is not correct, I don't know where you got this idea from
FFX is taking the current capabilities of LCS and putting them on a hull that actually works and isn't a human factors torture chamber.
This is also not correct, I don't know where you got this idea from. The missions they complete are complimentary
I don't think USVs are as useful for fleet operations in INDOPACCOM as they are in other theaters.
You don't see how increased magazine depth and reducing reliance on single ship platforms at lower cost is useful in the Indo-Pacific? Come on now, that's hard to take seriously
That is a nonsensical argument. The only knock on gun-based CIWS is their warmup time. While they can operate in automatic mode, they operate best when fed cueing information from the CIC. Putting a single CIWS on a ship in 2026 is a recipe for disaster when it cannot handle the missiles today that can fly programmed flight paths in coordination to arrive at opposite sides of a ship. So two $3 million missiles have near perfect expectation to take down a $3 billion frigate because of a bean counter decision based on a threat matrix being originally assessed from 1987. You build new ships based on current and expected threats.
Contact the DoN immediately, apparently you know something they don't and that their studies have completely missed
 
This is also not correct, I don't know where you got this idea from.

That is literally what the Connies were designed to do. They were going to replace all the LCS ships. Now FFX will do that. The Connies were supposed to be a minimum viable INDOPACOM escort. Turns out that's basically the same price as a Burke and when you have four to six Burkes in Sixth Fleet that's a lot missing that could go to INDOPACOM instead.

So now it's finding a ship that can replace those four to six Burkes in Sixth Fleet with one Burke and six little things instead.

In any case, LCS is bad. I'm not sure why you like it so much it's an extremely marginal combatant. FFX isn't any worse than LCS, adds a few new capabilities (TLAM), and will be much easier to maintain due to easier to access machinery spaces and have more space for "mission bays" i.e. it has actual hull volume. It'll also be cheaper to operate due to lack of need for so much contractor support.

It's an LCS but actually good.

The missions they complete are complimentary

If you think you can do the work of a frigate with 40 men go right ahead I guess. FFX will have a crew 3x the size of LCS for a good reason.

You don't see how increased magazine depth and reducing reliance on single ship platforms at lower cost is useful in the Indo-Pacific?

In 10-30 months? You think LUSVs will become important? I don't, not really, because it'll take longer than that for them to be designed. Maybe in 10-30 years, but that'll be after they're built to supplement SSCs in colonial roles, and it's more likely they'll dawdle on it.

There's a lot of serious institutional push back from robotic systems that won't get cleared out until after the next world war. Look at what happened to UCLASS a decade and a half ago. Thankfully, we probably won't have to wait long for the next world war. Alternatively, if it doesn't happen, and the same institutional roadblocks remain erected and robotic systems will be pretty marginalized in DOW/DOD.

The issues with LCS are profoundly crippling for its ability to function as a US warship, though. It's too small, both physically and in terms of manning, and it's got too little range and too much powerplant. FFX will be twice the displacement with a much larger crew so it won't be some weird orphan vessel that everyone kind of despises. This is without getting into how badly built they are and already have stuff like hull cracks and major erosion issues, which for LCS-2s it's the sponsons, because you don't need to criticize the LCS ships' quality to know they're bad.

Considering LCS, FFGX and FFX are all the same actual vessel type by the USN (small surface combatant), they should probably have a combined thread, because you can't really talk about one without the other two. FFX will be about as capable as LCS in real terms, a bit more if it gets MK70 boxes, and it will have more volume for mid-life improvements which are already highly questionable with LCS itself.
 
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Contact the DoN immediately, apparently you know something they don't and that their studies have completely missed
Actually I get my ideas from reading their materials. The problems are known, they chose pigeon holed outcomes that skip practical solutions.
 
Correct, FFGX and FFX are NOT combat escorts. The place they fit into the fleet is far away from whatever passes for the front lines, protecting from a raiding submarine. Not escorting a carrier group.
To be fair, FFGX absolutely is combat escort, and one which will be badly missed by USN. FFX is indeed for elsewhere...
 
To be fair, FFGX absolutely is combat escort, and one which will be badly missed by USN. FFX is indeed for elsewhere...
Even FFGX was not supposed to be escorting carriers. It was intended to escort the carrier supply convoys, the other convoys (like across the Atlantic), and the amphibs.
 
That is literally what the Connies were designed to do. They were going to replace all the LCS ships.
Constellation was going to have an MCM package? Also have you got any sources to back this up? An LCS is not a CSG frigate, they are so distinct that they shouldn't even be discussed in the same setting. Come on now
adds a few new capabilities (TLAM)
Typhon has already been tested on LCS lol
If you think you can do the work of a frigate with 40 men go right ahead I guess. FFX will have a crew 3x the size of LCS for a good reason.
Ok but why would LCS do the job of a frigate?
In 10-30 months? You think LUSVs will become important? I don't, not really, because it'll take longer than that for them to be designed. Maybe in 10-30 years, but that'll be after they're built to supplement SSCs in colonial roles, and it's more likely they'll dawdle on it.
So just to get this straight, you envision that LUSVs will come to the fore in areas which have seen less development and interest before areas in which they have seen more development and interest?
Considering LCS, FFGX and FFX are all the same actual vessel type by the USN (small surface combatant)
They are all SSCs but they fill different niches. FF(X) fills a completely different role to FFG(X). This is so unserious what
Even FFGX was not supposed to be escorting carriers. It was intended to escort the carrier supply convoys, the other convoys (like across the Atlantic), and the amphibs.
The explicit role of FFG(X) was to contribute to the escort of the CSG, this is not up for debate
 
Even FFGX was not supposed to be escorting carriers. It was intended to escort the carrier supply convoys, the other convoys (like across the Atlantic), and the amphibs.
I thought it was meant to do that though? Which is part of the reason there was such a horrible(and unnesessary) mission creep, as if NAVSEA tried to make it Burke equivalent(and fvcked up speed in process, making it pointless).

Two Cancellations will still be best ASW combatants in USN, while being certainly enough to cover their share of AAW screen. Not every ship in formation has to be a area defense ABM node - it's redundant/wasteful...
 

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