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Fake aircraft and aircraft projects (Blacklist !)

Stargazer2006

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Considering one of our fellow members fell for the SE 8200 (and since I'm the one behind it...) I thought I should have these listed here:
  • SNCASE SE 8000 Hirondelle
  • SNCASE SE 8200 Hirondelle II
... completely FAKE French versions of the Messerschmitt Me 262!!! ;D

There sure is an element of pride when a creation gets mistaken for something real... but I still feel sorry for confusing even respected members of our community with my inventions! :(
 

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Skybolt said:
I was preparing the list.. ;D

Most important of all is:
Sergio Govi , Dal Re 2002 al Re 2005, Giorgio Apostolo Editore 1984 and
Sergio Govi I Reggiane dall'A alla Z - Giorgio Apostolo Editore 1985
bth are long out of rpint, but there is a CD-ROM editon. You can order directly to Giorgio on http://www.apostoloeditore.it

First diffusion of the fake was via
Piero Prato I Caccia Caproni Reggiane 1938-1945, Intyrama 1968 (text in Italian and english)

A condensed version of the Longhi position, with copies of the letters, both real and fakes is in
Giorgio Evangelisti, Gente dell'Aria 4, Editoriale Olimpia 1997

More info on the uncovering of the fake in
Gregory Alegy, Reggiane Re-2005, Ali d'Italia, La Bancarella Aeonautica Pub. 2001 (text in Italian and english)

The bible on he Re.2006 and derivatives (and more info on the fake) is now:
Alessandro Berteletti Reggiane Re 2006 Una storia vera - A true History (text in Italian and english) IBN Editore 2002
This is more difficult to find: try http://www.aviolibri.it

Last, from various sources, the AR234's Jumos story can be also found in
Giuseppe Ciampaglia Dal SAI Ambrosini Sagittario all'Aerfer Leone A history of the first Italian supersonic fighters created by Sergio Stefanutti IBN Editore 2004 same URL as above (text in Italian and english)
Another source must be added: the autobiography of Gen (ret.) Tullio De Prato, chief test pilot for Reggiane during the war. In the book, he literally wrote: "About the Re.2007, myself, the (Reggiane) chief test pilot, has never heard about: it's a tale! (...) The last aircraft projected and built for Reggiane was the Re.2006 (...)" (letter to JP4 Aviation Magazine, that revamped the story, february 1976).
In another letter, Ge. Da Prato wrote quite sarcastic "I could tell some details about the origin (of the fake), but it's no my intention (in this letter)".

Source: Tullio De Prato, Un pilota contadino, Mucchi editore, Modena, 1985.
 

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I can't believe that I came all the way here just to post this...
So, here we go, Payen PA46 is under design RIGHT NOW. So is the Savoia S21.
if anyone is interested on those projects and/or have more material on Mr Payen's designing msg me on Facebook.
I'm Jean-Luc Mauriat, and flying boats are my game!
 

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Jemiba

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Akaflieg Berlin B-X

original source : Aeroclub-Magazin April 1960

mentioned in the GST magazine and some other contemporary publications.
Started as an April fool, but taken seriously !
 

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hesham

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Skybolt said:
Discussing the CC.2 in the Campini projects thread, the talk went on the Re.2007, a notorious fake. Since there is some interest in this and it seems that the "fekeness" ot the Re.2007 is not widely aknowledged, I give here a (somewhat lenghty explanation). Since we are in Secret projects, I attached some projects draft to helm me summarize the matter. Here we go. Afinal warning: nothing of what follows is true: Italian aviation historians alla gree on this version since at least the late '80s...
What follows is the story of the Re2007. Story, not history, since the Re 2007 as is widely, and incorrectly, known, i.e. a late war prototype fighter powered by a Jumo jet engine, is a fantasy (even if the right word is "fake"...). First the facts and then the interpretation of them, since even fakes are done for a purpose, freak as it could look.
Just after the war italian aviation buffs knew that the Re.2007 existed and the way it looked. A perspective view is in picture 1, as published in the magazine "L'Ala" in February 1948. Actually, first mention of this project comes from a report written by Ing. Alessio, General Manager of Reggiane, in late 1945, describing the projects that were well advanced: this particular project was a mail and six passenger transport. Alessio described it as a derivative of the Re.2005, but in reality it derived from the Re.2000 and had a radial engine (see picture 4). Same article in L'Ala described also a Re.2008 like a racer derived from the Re.2005 (pic 2). Alessio didn't mention this but instead a single engine, single crew postal plane, wich was similary derived by the R.2005. In fact this was a straightforward derivative of the Re.2000 with a P&W or Wright 1500 Hp water-cooled radial (pic 3). Alessio described a third desing, a translatlantic flying boat, i.e the Ca.8000.

To summarize: Reggiane general manager said that he had in the wings (literally) a mail carrier, a mail and passenger carrier and a large transport. L'Ala attributed to the second one the Re.2007 designation (probably on Alessio input) and the Re.2008 to the racer.

My dear Lark,


I sent those drawings here,because mu dear Skybolt displayed them here at first.
 

Stargazer2006

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Organization of this thread is a little complicated, but until a better solution is found, I'll duplicate here some information I already posted in the Gloster designations topic.

Some totally FAKE Gloster aircraft can be found on the web under the designations "G.45 Sea Meteor FSN.6", "SS.39 Gannet", "SS.40 Skipper I" and "SS.42 Skipper II" (the latter in association with Avro of Canada). NONE of these are genuine. They are part of the Wesworld uchronia (a fantasy by an author who imagines an alternate timeline) and must therefore NOT be taken into consideration.
 

Stargazer2006

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Would you believe? A simple search on the word "blacklist" on the entire forum through the search engine does NOT bring up this topic!!!

Anyway, the engine is great otherwise, so I guess we'll have to make do with its occasional whims... ::)

Here is a complete (but oh so beautiful) fake from Japan: the "Lockheed P-37 Fire Eater"!
 

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As the creator of those Gloster Wesworld 'fakes' (and many more!), I can only say to everyone, anything you see on Wesworld is fictional, even seemingly real-world names/objects/designations/real never-were's may include elements of fiction.
 

Jemiba

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Stargazer2006 said:
Would you believe? A simple search on the word "blacklist" on the entire forum through the search engine does NOT bring up this topic!!!
Seems, you have cured this problem ! ;)
 

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Stargazer2006

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Hood said:
As the creator of those Gloster Wesworld 'fakes' (and many more!), I can only say to everyone, anything you see on Wesworld is fictional, even seemingly real-world names/objects/designations/real never-were's may include elements of fiction.
Thanks for setting the record straight! And congratulations on your search for designations that sound authentic. You got me wondering on a couple of occasions (notably on the Meteor 6) and it shows you put a lot of thinking in it, which I can only appreciate since I do the same with my photo-montages of imaginary aircraft! I have toned it down a bit these days however, after realizing my fakes (although clearly labeled as such) were liable to generate confusion with historians in the future, given the way information spreads on the web!

By the way, are your imaginary aircraft purely text creations or did you ever create images for them? I'd be curious to see that!
 

Hood

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Stargazer2006 said:
Thanks for setting the record straight! And congratulations on your search for designations that sound authentic. You got me wondering on a couple of occasions (notably on the Meteor 6) and it shows you put a lot of thinking in it, which I can only appreciate since I do the same with my photo-montages of imaginary aircraft! I have toned it down a bit these days however, after realizing my fakes (although clearly labeled as such) were liable to generate confusion with historians in the future, given the way information spreads on the web!

By the way, are your imaginary aircraft purely text creations or did you ever create images for them? I'd be curious to see that!
I've drawn a few of them in Shipbucket style (FD-scale) but the majority are modified real aircraft or real never-were's, but some are my own creations. All the relevant illustrations can be found at Wesworld, but you'd need to be a member to see most of them.

Perhaps I'd better include a fuller list to ensure everyone realises the fakes and so these are not mistaken for real project or aircraft (especially if illustrated with real photos and plans). I've not included the Gloster's mentioned above but Stargazer has missed another fake Gloster.

Spitfire F.Mk.IV
Spitfire Trainer T.Mk.VI
Hawker Typhoon IIA
Hawker Tempest F.Mk.I (Napier Sabre), F.Mk.II (RR Griffon), F.Mk.III (RR Vulture), TT.Mk.IV and FB.Mk.VA (Tempest with Typhoon wing); In
Hawker Cyclone F.Mk.I
Vickers-Supermarine Spiteful F.Mk.I and PR.Mk.II and F.Mk.III
Gloster G.39 Gunner (fake name for real G.39)
Boulton Paul P.97 Nighthawk (fake name for real P.97 project)
De Havilland D.H.103 Hornet FB.Mk.I, PR.Mk.II and FR.Mk.III
Vickers Wellington Mk IIIF (fictional IR-sensor equipped nightfighter conversion)
Lysander GR.Mk.III
Fairey Balmoral (fictional land-based Fairey Barracuda)
Fairey Fox II B.Mk.I (fictional land-based Fairey Spearfish)
Wellington B.Mk.IV, B.Mk.V; GR.Mk.VI, B.Mk.VII and GR.Mk.VIII
Boulton Paul P.90 Birmingham (fictional name for real P.90 project)
Bristol 159 Manchester
BCAC (Vickers) Type 601 Windsor B.Mk.III (fictional RR Clyde powered variant)
BCAC (Vickers) Type 497 Westminster B.Mk.I
BCAC (Vickers) Type 507 Westminster B.Mk.II
Fairey Firefly FN.Mk.I and FN.Mk.II (fictional single-seat Firefly)
Vickers-Supermarine Sea Fang FN.Mk.I (fictional Griffon-powered fighter based on Seafire)
Martin-Baker Sea M.B.5 (fictional carrier-based variant)
Blackburn B.44 Firebrand FRN.Mk.I and FRM.Mk.II (fictional development of B.44 project)
Blackburn B.20 Boston (fictional name for real B.20 prototype)
BCAC (Bristol) Type 164 Buccaneer GR.Mk.I (fictional Buckingham variant)
Bristol Type 130 Bermuda (fictional re-naming of Bombay)
Handley Page H.P.89 Hastings C.Mk.II (fictional variant) as is H.P.74 Hermes II airliner
Gloster SS.43 (fictional variable-incidence wing research aircraft)
Gloster G.45 Sea Meteor FSN.Mk.VI
Flettner Fl-282 Hummingbird (fictional name)
ShinRa Aviation CH-2 Liasopod Gyrodyne H.Mk.I (fictional helicopter)
Avro 689 Tudor II, 711 Tudor III, Avro 711A Trader (fictional variants based on real projects)
Avro 700 Ashton (real Avro project but false name)
BCAC (Bristol) Type 174 BC.1 Wayfarer, Type 172 Wayfarer C.Mk.I (fictional variants)
BCAC (Bristol) BC.2 167 Britannia and BC.3 175 Britannia (fictional aircraft)
BCAC (Bristol) 179 BC.4 Super Freighter (fictional but based on real project)
De Havilland DH.97 Ambassador (fictional re-naming of Airspeed AS.57)
General Aviation (UK) Ltd. Tribian Sponson (fake name for real Tribian Sponson project)
General Aviation (UK) Ltd. Aerocar (fake name for Portsmouth Aerocar)
Handley Page H.P.54 Harrow (fictional airliner rather than RAF transport)
Handley Page HP.77 Hampton (fictional)
Miles M.73 Herald (fictional but based on original HP(R) Herald
Saro SR.44 FRN.Mk.I (fictional name for real SR/A.1)
Short S.35 S Class (fictional but based on Shetland)
Short S.45 Solent (fictional)
Short S.32 Sandringham (fictional name for S.32 airliner project)

There are a couple of fake airships too; HMAS No.1 Solaria and HMAS No.2 Olympia; Submarine Scout Pusher (SSP), HMAS No.3; Reconnaissance Scout Class (RS), HMAS No.4 & No.5 and Semi-Rigid Scout Class (RSR), HMAS No.6.

As Argentine player I've devised several wholly fictional types (some of which have already made it onto this site as 'real' projects.

FMA T-514 (fake improved Avro 504 copy)
FMA Llama
FMA I.Ae 1 Guarani
FMA I.Ae 2 and 2T (fake monoplane trainer)
FMA I.Ae 3 and 3T (fake single-seat trainer)
FMA I-100 Barron
FMA I.Ae 4 Courier and 4S torpedo bomber and 4R racer
FMA I.Ae 5 (fictional airliner version of real M.B.2 bomber)
FMA I-01 Buchon
FMA I-02 Pulqui
FMA I.Ae 6T
FMA I.Ae 7 (fictional four-engine airliner)
FMA I.Ae 8 (fictional tourer)
FMA I.Ae 9 (fictional racer)
FMA RP-1 (I.Ae 10) (fictional rocket-powered aircraft)
I.Ae 23 Jaguar
IMPA M.B.1
IMPA SI-21A, SI-21B, SI-21RF, SI-21T and SI-21S
IMPA I-99
IMPA TB-1
Tucan T-17
Tucan T-18 NB-1 and T-18B NB-2
 

Stargazer2006

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Wow. That is VERY helpful and I thank you for taking the time to document this.

Being too busy already with the work on this forum and several other activities on the side, I don't think I'd have the time or the incentive to join Wesworld, but I'm sure it must be great.

We have a section here on "Fictional aircraft and theoretical designs", so if ever you so wish, feel free to start a topic to present your creations... ;)

Have a great new and creative year!
 

Stargazer2006

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hesham said:
I think this aircraft was also from Blacklist
The purpose of "blacklisting" certain projects is to warn people who browse the web about types that SEEM to be real projects while they are in fact the product of someone's imagination. The confusion may stem from the use of a name/designation that resembles a real corporate or military name/designation for example. It could also be the result of a fake image looking a lot like a real one.

The image you posted is not a source of confusion for any historian or researcher. It was not meant to pass off as a real project. It DOES belong in the Theoretical and Speculative Designs section, but it is simply an imaginary, notional design such as hundreds of others that can be found in 1920s and 1930s magazines. It would be perfectly all right in the Imagination of the future from the past page, for instance.
 

hesham

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Hi Stargazer,


it was from Nazi imagination for future aircraft,so I put it in blacklist.
 

Stargazer2006

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hesham said:
it was from Nazi imagination for future aircraft,so I put it in blacklist.
You can give me your reasoning but it doesn't change the fact that it's probably not in the best place in this topic.

My advice is that you just post stuff in the other topics and leave the "Blacklist" topic to the moderators. If something seems a possible source of confusion, it will be added here. Jemiba notably has done an excellent job of it so far.
 

hesham

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Stargazer2006 said:
hesham said:
it was from Nazi imagination for future aircraft,so I put it in blacklist.
You can give me your reasoning but it doesn't change the fact that it's probably not in the best place in this topic.

My advice is that you just post stuff in the other topics and leave the "Blacklist" topic to the moderators. If something seems a possible source of confusion, it will be added here. Jemiba notably has done an excellent job of it so far.

Ok Stargazer.
 

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pleas remove Bulgaria MiG 15 twin-fuselage fighter bomber

the project is legit and real the original article is from the Bulgarian magazine Krile issue 1 from 2009
sorry for my very late response about that project but i thought i cleared it already :)
 

hesham

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piko1 said:
pleas remove Bulgaria MiG 15 twin-fuselage fighter bomber

the project is legit and real the original article is from the Bulgarian magazine Krile issue 1 from 2009
sorry for my very late response about that project but i thought i cleared it already :)

Hi Piko 1,


can you send a drawings for it,I saw something like that in old Russian book,but where,
my memory is too bad.
 

piko1

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i will try my best Hesham i need to contact the publisher i will do that in Monday to see if they have more drawings
 

hesham

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OK Piko and thank you.
 

piko1

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translation :
the Articles and photos and drawings are the same as those in issue. 1/2009 of "Club Krile" magazine


so yeh the twin MiG-15 April fool theory is - busted
next stop Kamov Ka-58
 

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Triton

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Charles Bombardier Antares

Antares designed by Charles Bombardier, grandson of Joseph-Armande Bombardier -- founder of, you guessed it, Bombardier. Antares is Bombardier the designer's take on the NASA/CalPoly Amelia powered-lift airliner concept with an injection of DNA from Bombardier the manufacturer's CSeries airliner.
Source:
http://kronoport.com/author/graham-warwick/page/2
http://aviationweek.com/blog/designer-airliners
http://charlesbombardier.com/
 

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hesham

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Skybolt said:
In 1968 Interconair Aviation & Marine published the first post-war study in the Reggiane fighter. Piero Prato, the author, tried to untangle all information he presumed to have and established a new
nomenclature of the late Reggiane projects. During the research a three-view of the Re.2006 prototype was uncovered and so so he went:
Re.2006, Re.2005 derivative with a DB.603 and radiators in the wings
Re.2006P, derivative for mail transport with a liquid cooled radial, intended for post-war
Re.2006PP, derivative for mail a passenger transport with a liquid colled radial and larger fuselage, intended for post-war use
Re.2006C, race-oriented derivative, intended fot he Bendix transcontinental race post-war.
Re.2007, Jumo 004 fighter
Re.2008, unspecified engine Re.2007 evolution, circa 1948

From Flieger Revue 5/1977,


here is in two collections to comparison.
 

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hesham

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Hi,


this site has many real aircraft,and a large group of fake and whatif designs;


http://flickeflu.com/groups/69849879@N00
 

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Grey Havoc said:
A pre-emptive entry; The RQH-60M HELODRONE. Essentially an A.I. piloted Black Hawk helicopter used for inserting and extracting special forces.

From the computer game Far Cry 3: Blood Dragon, set in an alternate post-apocalyptic 2007.
 

Jemiba

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Help appreciated

Following Scotts idea, I'll begin to stamp the pictures, that may cause confusion otherwise.
The results would look like the faked P.192 picture below then, still recognisable, but hopefully
not to be taken for real anymore.
As in one or two cases I was the source for such errors myself, I know, that insufficient
knowledge of the language used may be the cause, so I tried to give the warning in more,
than just one language, but using an online translator, I don't know, if I got it right, so
correction of native speakers is appreciated.
Or should another language be added ? Or should we limit the warning to the english language,
as the word "fake" probably is an international term nowadays ?
Opinions, please !
 

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Antonio

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In my opinion "fake" or possibly "fantasy" should be enough. That are popular words.
Everyone entering this forum is supposed to understand, at least, basic English.
I think there's no need to add an array of translations.
 

dan_inbox

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I agree with Pometablava.
I would also suggest to use a watermark that is less invasive than your proposal.
I we obscure too much of the picture's subject then it misses the point. This is for reference, not pilorying/shaming. The pic must stay a usable reference.
 

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For what it's worth, I suggest "Speculative" as a diplomatic and flexible tag - "Fake" implies an intent to deceive and I'm sure that wasn't Ord-Humes' intention.
 

Antonio

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Possible "fake" isn't the most precise term but I would suggest the use of "speculative" for those drawing trying to show an idea of real un built projects with no available official drawing
 

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Just came across this . . .

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/609/Fairey-Vintech-Swordfish-Turbine-Conversion.aspx

It's bound to turn up here sooner or later . . .


cheers,
Robin.
 
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