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ESA Ariane 6

Grey Havoc

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http://aviationweek.com/space/ariane-6-becomes-reality#slide-0-field_images-1434561

("Ariane 64" seems to be a typo.)
 

Michel Van

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Grey Havoc said:
http://aviationweek.com/space/ariane-6-becomes-reality#slide-0-field_images-1434561

("Ariane 64" seems to be a typo.)
Nope, the offical desigination is Ariane 62 (two Solids) and Ariane 64 (four solids)
 

fredymac

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The Aviation Week article doesn't mention any plans for reuseability. I thought they were studying options for a winged main booster glideback. With Spacex, ULA (Vulcan), and Blue Origin itself planning on cost reductions through reuseable components, I would think Ariane would hedge its bets one way or the other.

I am puzzled about this statement:
"the Ariane 64 will lift 10,500 kg (23,150 lb.) to geostationary transfer orbit (GTO) with 1,500 tons of thrust at liftoff. In its Ariane 62 configuration, the rocket will use two boosters to carry half that weight to GTO with 800 tons of thrust"

This implies each of the solid rocket boosters puts out close to 400 tons (800,000lbs) thrust. Or are they saying this is the combined thrust from the main booster plus the strap-ons? In that case, is the "62" configuration total thrust correct?
 

TomS

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Those numbers imply that the core provides 100 tons of thrust and that each booster is 350 tons (assuming the boosters for 62 and 64 are the same). Does that make sense?
 

Hobbes

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Yes. The first stage engine will be a variant of the Vulcain 2, whic provides 1140 kN (114 tons) of thrust.
 

Grey Havoc

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Michel Van said:
Grey Havoc said:
http://aviationweek.com/space/ariane-6-becomes-reality#slide-0-field_images-1434561

("Ariane 64" seems to be a typo.)
Nope, the offical desigination is Ariane 62 (two Solids) and Ariane 64 (four solids)
Thanks for the clarification.
 

Michel Van

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Interesting CNES is study reusable Booster stage for Ariane 6
it's use Lox/CH4
source in french language
http://www.futura-sciences.com/magazines/espace/infos/actu/d/acces-espace-version-reutilisable-ariane-6-etude-56666/

Also is there the "Adeline" proposal by Airbus Defence and Space
Adeline stand for Advanced Expendable Launcher with Innovative engine Economy
After burnout of stage the engine block detach from fuel tank return to earth, deploy propellors and fly back to launch site (using Drone technology)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z2i8zC3tL0
 

fredymac

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Interesting architecture where the solid strap-ons provide about 90% of the thrust. Almost sounds like it's a 2nd stage that starts early.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfqqNxhb7K4
 

Moose

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fredymac said:
Interesting architecture where the solid strap-ons provide about 90% of the thrust. Almost sounds like it's a 2nd stage that starts early.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfqqNxhb7K4
Not unprecedented, the Shuttle's SSMEs weren't providing anywhere near the thrust of the SRBs at liftoff. SLS's core will will be similarly configured as well. In this sort of "1.5 stage" configuration, the core engines can be lighter and less complex if you light them on the ground rather than air-starting them after staging as a true second stage.
 

sferrin

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Or a Titan III/IV where the core wasn't even firing at liftoff.
 

mz

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fredymac said:
Interesting architecture where the solid strap-ons provide about 90% of the thrust. Almost sounds like it's a 2nd stage that starts early.
If I checked correctly, Ariane V has been doing an even higher ratio decades. 14 MN from two P241 motors and 1 MN from Vulcain 2 core stage.
Also Soyuz (and like mentioned, formerly STS and Titan IV) were somewhat similar.

The core engine is started on pad, so that the takeoff can be aborted if it doesn't start. It is mostly designed to just run at sea level, it works better higher up with less ambient pressure.
Solids are good for high early acceleration. This reduces gravity losses a lot. Later in the flight, lower thrust to weight doesn't matter so much so a smaller engine is quite fine. Also since hydrogen propulsion is used, engines for similar thrust than denser fuels tend to be bigger (=heavier and more expensive) - yet the stage mass is lighter after the solids have been shed. That also drives optimization towards low powered core stages.

Ariane V was designed for the Hermes Shuttle to LEO so it's maybe not optimal for GTO launches.
 

Flyaway

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Ariane 6

European Space Agency, ESA

Published on Jan 23, 2017
Decided in Luxemburg by the European Space Agency council meeting at Ministerial level, Ariane 6 is a modular three-stage launcher (solid–cryogenic–cryogenic) with two configurations using: four boosters (A64) or two boosters (A62).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcKL_qR1dXM
 

Cifu

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Flyaway said:
Ariane 6

European Space Agency, ESA

Published on Jan 23, 2017
Decided in Luxemburg by the European Space Agency council meeting at Ministerial level, Ariane 6 is a modular three-stage launcher (solid–cryogenic–cryogenic) with two configurations using: four boosters (A64) or two boosters (A62).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcKL_qR1dXM
Yet nothing new about the reusability. Without reusability, the Ariane 6 hardly can compete against the SpaceX Falcon 9 / Falcon Heavy, the Blue Origin New Glenn and the ULA Vulcan...
 

Grey Havoc

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http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40366736
 

Michel Van

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here you tube videos about Vinci engine testing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRSNbHFyoSE
 

Flyaway

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France, Germany studying reusability with a subscale flyback booster

WASHINGTON — Reusable rocketry in Europe took a step forward last year with a funding boost for Prometheus, a program meant to develop a reusable engine manufacturable at one-tenth the cost of the Ariane 5’s first-stage liquid engine. A parallel effort dubbed Callisto could test a European ability to launch, return and refly a rocket from the Guiana Space Centre in South America.

The French and German space agencies (CNES and DLR, respectively) have for the past two years collaborated on a scaled-down rocket that would allow Europe to practice different aspects of recovery and reuse. Callisto’s first flight is planned for 2020.

Callisto officials said the goal of the program is not to create a new vehicle in 2020 — the Ariane 6 is scheduled to debut that same year — but to establish a base of knowledge for future launch vehicles that could, maybe, be reusable.
http://spacenews.com/france-germany-studying-reusability-with-a-subscale-flyback-booster/
 

Michel Van

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The beginning of the end
the last order for Ten Ariane 5 rockets was made
There will be 23 Launches of Ariane 5 to year 2021.
2020 Ariane 6 makes it Test and Qualification flights to Replace the Ariane 5 in 2021/22

CNES progress report
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atMrN6Iufsk

Next Ariane 6 it show also footage on CALLISTO a suborbital reusable demonstrator.
and PROMETHEUS the Reusable Rocket engines that now got now full ESA funding.

more on Callisto and prometheus (audio)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCEU4WXDjCs
 

Jemiba

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From todays visit to the ILA airshow, the planned timeline for the ESA/Ariane reusable launch systems,
shown with 5 models :
 

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Michel Van

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thanks for picture Jemiba

Sarcasm mode on

How nice
a re-usable sounding rocket
a clone of Falcon 9 first stage for 2021
a X-15 Clone for 2027
a re-animated old concept of 1985 as Ariane 7 for 2035
a Two stage re-usable Ariane 8 for the year 2045...


...On moment, Year 2045 ?
Let me see if all went right to then, your future look like that:
SpaceX and Blue Origin Dominate the Launch Market and intercontinental ballistic transport market
and just completed there Infrastructure build-up on Moon and Mars
Follow by China and India re-usable rockets follow space effort of Brazil, Ethiopia, Dubai, Philippines
NASA astronauts are now backseat drivers, while virgin galactic, ULA, Roscosmos and ESA & Co are memories

Poor ESA again its Conservatism is its downfall...

Sarcasm mode off
 

martinbayer

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Michel Van said:
thanks for picture Jemiba

Sarcasm mode on

How nice
a re-usable sounding rocket
a clone of Falcon 9 first stage for 2021
a X-15 Clone for 2027
a re-animated old concept of 1985 as Ariane 7 for 2035
a Two stage re-usable Ariane 8 for the year 2045...


...On moment, Year 2045 ?
Let me see if all went right to then, your future look like that:
SpaceX and Blue Origin Dominate the Launch Market and intercontinental ballistic transport market
and just completed there Infrastructure build-up on Moon and Mars
Follow by China and India re-usable rockets follow space effort of Brazil, Ethiopia, Dubai, Philippines
NASA astronauts are now backseat drivers, while virgin galactic, ULA, Roscosmos and ESA & Co are memories

Poor ESA again its Conservatism is its downfall...

Sarcasm mode off
At Mach 10 top speed, the RLV-Demo is no X-15 clone, but rather somewhat of a copy of the DARPA XS-1/XSP program, see https://www.darpa.mil/program/experimental-space-plane, with some X-37-ish aerodynamics thrown in. I am mystified though why the winged booster of the Semi-RLV is shown to be so much smaller that the geometrically almost identical one of the Spaceliner - there could be a real growth path for introducing full reusability over time by a staggered development approach. I fully agree however that at the shown time frames the exercise would be pretty pointless market wise.

Martin
 

Michel Van

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progress Report
ESA has tested successful the new Solids P120C for Ariane 6 and Vega-C rocket
https://youtu.be/B4r_1db6xYo

how it's made
https://youtu.be/1Jao40a5mds
 

Grey Havoc

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http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180706-the-rocket-scientists-mixing-up-a-giant-firework
 

Michel Van

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current state of launch pad
https://youtu.be/-7w8V7sfEQM
 

antigravite

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"Liberation", a national daily, publishes a story on ArianeWorks, the agile organization responsible for making the Callisto RLV demonstrator happen. Their office, based in Paris, was visited by the journalist. Success with Callisto (first flight expected in 2020), would trigger a second phase: engineering a bigger version called Themis which could become Ariane Next's first reusable stage.

source:
Camille Gévaudan, "ArianeWorks, une start-up pour les fusées de demain," Liberation, 21/02/2019, https://www.liberation.fr/sciences/2019/02/21/arianeworks-une-start-up-pour-les-fusees-de-demain_1710743


A.
 

Michel Van

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why i not surprised on that news ?

The European Commission revealed a new three-year project to develop technologies needed for two proposed reusable launch vehicles
The program called RETALT with RETALT 1 will copy the Falcon 9 ability to land and fly again, while RETALT 2 is reusable SSTO



 

Michel Van

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Nice Article that look improvement proposal for Ariane 6

1. ArianeGroup wants a “reinforced” payload adapter for launch a wider range of satellites like several smaller sats
2. 3D printing Engines with the goal a manufacture cost of 1 million euros (Spinnoff from Prometheus program)
3. Enlarged Auxilliary Power Unit
4. Innovative Carbon Ariane Upper Stage, short Icarus, a upper stage using carbon composites instead of aluminum
5. simplifying the design and improving the manufacturing processes of Ariane 6 solid booster


 

TomcatViP

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Amazing that this novelties where not implemented in the original Ariane 6 design, what, 3y ago ?
 

Michel Van

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yep mixture of conservatism and politic is not good for ESA and Ariane Group
Special with Elon Musk and Jeff Benoz and Hu Zhenyu going one step beyond

Ariane analog to Falcon 9 in 2030 with 5000$/Kg into GTO
That would be 25 million$ per launch (if Ariane 6 carry 5000 kg into GTO)
A reused Falcon 9 with 6024$ at cost 50 million$ with 8300 kg into GTO

But in 2030 Ariane Space Face not only SpaceX, but also Blue Origin, Linkspace and India reusable launcher
There is realist chance that launch price per kg is drop considerably under 5000$...
 

Hobbes

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4 years ago SpaceX demonstrated its first successful landing after 2 years of failures. They invested something like 3x the development cost of the Falcon 9 just in developing the landing caapbility. This is the main problem of ESA: they don't have a billion or so lying around to spend on speculative development.
 

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o_O

@Michel Van : probably that cost fall will be tempered by the increase in demand. At one time or another proved reliability, disponibility and brand will have their words to say.
 

Zootycoon

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What an epic failure of innovation.... more duplovation

Also it’s ESA dysfunctional management which refuses to acknowledge its uncompetitiveness if it arrives on the launch pad in 2030 something.

The money will come from the gift that just keeps giving......the EU taxpayers.
 
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Maiwand1880

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1/ Ariane-6 will work and be competitive when factoring in all elements 2/ ESA is unrelated to the EU, is not an EU institution, is not financed as such by the EU (the EU pays for some programmes ESA implements on their behalf). Britain is still a member, as are Switzerland and Norway (but free to leave, of course).
 
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TomcatViP

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Thin (h)air only separates the two (speaking of space)...

Tell us how far geographically does ESA stands from the EU main office?
 
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Flyaway

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ESA to seek funding for more Prometheus reusable engines at ministerial

by Caleb Henry — October 21, 2019

WASHINGTON — The European Space Agency will ask its 22 member states next month to fund an additional two to eight Prometheus reusable engines so that the agency can further the engine’s development.

ESA, with prime contractor ArianeGroup, has two Prometheus engines being built today, leveraging funds granted at its 2016 ministerial, plus earlier work supported by the French Space Agency CNES.

Jérôme Breteau, ESA’s head of future space transportation, said Oct. 21 at the 70th International Astronautical Congress here that those two engines are on track for test firings in late 2020 at the German Space Agency DLR’s Lampoldshausen facility. ESA will continue engine tests into 2021, but what follows “is the subject of our proposal to the Space19+ ministerial,” he said.

ESA’s tri-annual ministerial conferences are where the agency and its members allocate funds for future space programs. ESA is seeking 12.5 billion euros ($13.9 billion) at its next ministerial, dubbed Space19+, Nov. 27 -28 in Seville, Spain.

Breteau said ESA needs to know the outcome of the ministerial before it can lay out the next steps for Prometheus. The agency has “very ambitious” plans for the liquid-oxygen and methane engine, he said.

ESA’s goal with Prometheus is to manufacture the engine for 1 million euros ($1.1 million) each — a tenth the price of the Vulcain engine used on the first stage of Europe’s Ariane 5 rocket. Prometheus is also designed to be reusable.

Breteau said Lampoldshausen’s hydrogen engine test bench, used for Ariane 6’s Vulcain 2.1 engine, will need upgrades to support the methane needed for Prometheus.

Breteau said Prometheus is so far in line with its cost target and its performance target of 1,000 kilonewtons in thrust. He said it is difficult to have a set mass target for Prometheus because that requires knowing what vehicle the engine will support.

Work on Prometheus has been done with the expectation that it would be used on a launch vehicle in the 2030s, but ArianeGroup has mused using it on the Ariane 6 rocket, which debuts in 2020.

Breteau wouldn’t go so far as to name a launcher that might use Prometheus.

“System engineering on the target launcher configuration is ongoing,” he said. ESA has what Breteau described as “more than a notional idea” of how to cluster Prometheus engines together on a launcher, a detail he said gives an “idea of the maturity of the system activities.”
 
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