Defense against Hypersonic Glide Vehicles

Trivial weight compared to most to orbit launchers is a given. The question is how heavy and with how much envelope outside their orbital inclination. IMO the greatest threat is high altitude gliders and scramjets that avoid (or largely avoid) an exo atmospheric ballistic trajectory.

You're not going to get much dwell time/coverage from a satellite with high orbital eccentricity. A low perigee would presumably also shorten the lifespan of the satellite or increase its fuel requirements due to atmospheric drag.

Some kind of partial re-entry (and heat protection) is a given for a glider intercept, or else the target itself wouldn't be aerodynamically maneuverable (or possibly even detectable by the new sensor layer). So we are talking about a re-entry that probably will likely place more heat stress on the interceptor than on target, since the interceptor is dropping from an orbital velocity down into the upper atmosphere and the target is coasting from a sub orbital boost.

I think the altitudes and velocities needed to create a constant coverage satellite constellation of interceptors able to deorbit to intercept in upper atmosphere against a HBG make the idea impractical. Ballistic weapons yes, but I think the US already has a fair number of ground based solutions for that which can be locally/regionally based near the defended targets. I'll leave it at that.
From what I understand, they still fly at about 60-70km where the air density is fairly superficial, you need some heat resistance but not as much as a full RV. Even if you do need a full RV, the full weight of an ICBM RV is ~400-600lbs and for a KKV, you won't need anything that big, for the KKV bus + KKV you might, so that's really an upper limit. We can't really be sure of the target speed, the claims for Avangard's speed vary wildly.

Depends on the design of satellite as regards longevity.

It does but the cost of adding a non-reusable launcher to each KKV is significant, with reusable launchers, you only pay for the fuel and the KKV.
BGRV glided for thousands of miles <35 km altitude.
 
BGRV glided for thousands of miles <35 km altitude.
But what apogee did it reach beforehand? That's where you want to hit the missile with a space-based system, not after it has deployed BGRVs. Liquid propellant missiles also have a much longer boost phase, especially large ones. :)
 
BGRV glided for thousands of miles <35 km altitude.
But what apogee did it reach beforehand? That's where you want to hit the missile with a space-based system, not after it has deployed BGRVs. Liquid propellant missiles also have a much longer boost phase, especially large ones. :)

This was over half a century ago. (Late 60s.)

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to shoot down hypersonic missiles also requires missiles with such speed and ceiling height. but the problem is friction from air and high temperatures
 
and why don't they shoot down these hypersonic rockets in the final flight somewhere at a height of 10 km, something similar to using multiple rocket launchers in order to create a cloud of explosion and shrapnel?
 
BGRV glided for thousands of miles <35 km altitude.
But what apogee did it reach beforehand? That's where you want to hit the missile with a space-based system, not after it has deployed BGRVs. Liquid propellant missiles also have a much longer boost phase, especially large ones. :)

This was over half a century ago. (Late 60s.)

View attachment 681557

View attachment 681558
Okay, so I guess the KKVs will need some heat shielding.
 
and why don't they shoot down these hypersonic rockets in the final flight somewhere at a height of 10 km, something similar to using multiple rocket launchers in order to create a cloud of explosion and shrapnel?
If it was possible to build a large, ground-based, solid-state phased array laser in the same form as many missile defence radars, then that would be an extremely effective terminal defence. It would need serious power, but being ground-based weight/size wouldn't be an issue.
 
and why don't they shoot down these hypersonic rockets in the final flight somewhere at a height of 10 km, something similar to using multiple rocket launchers in order to create a cloud of explosion and shrapnel?
If it was possible to build a large, ground-based, solid-state phased array laser in the same form as many missile defence radars, then that would be an extremely effective terminal defence. It would need serious power, but being ground-based weight/size wouldn't be an issue.
20 megawatt nuclear mini-reactor like power source ?
they will have to be built in smaller parts underground if one part is destroyed the other part will continue to function
 
20 megawatt nuclear mini-reactor like power source ?
they will have to be built in smaller parts underground if one part is destroyed the other part will continue to function
Why mini-reactor? I was thinking more like 10 times 1000MW but with ability to draw from grid (or send to the grid in peacetime), which should be capable of sustaining a 2.5GW beam that could be directed and re-directed as fast as an AESA radar beam. They say 1MW is enough for missile intercepts at 10km, so working on that basis and using 1/R^2, 2.5GW would be good enough to hoover up warheads at ~500km. It may also be possible to have beam partitioning, so that as the threats get closer, each array can break the beam down into several smaller beams.

I would put the reactors inside a granite rock structure somewhere and have the array high up so that it has a good view.
 
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20 megawatt nuclear mini-reactor like power source ?
they will have to be built in smaller parts underground if one part is destroyed the other part will continue to function
Why mini-reactor? I was thinking more like 10 times 1000MW but with ability to draw from grid (or send to the grid in peacetime), which should be capable of sustaining a 2.5GW beam that could be directed and re-directed as fast as an AESA radar beam. They say 1MW is enough for missile intercepts at 10km, so working on that basis and using 1/R^2, 2.5GW would be good enough to hoover up warheads at ~500km. It may also be possible to have beam partitioning, so that as the threats get closer, each array can break the beam down into several smaller beams.

I would put the reactors inside a granite rock structure somewhere and have the array high up so that it has a good view.


Mini reactor to be protected from attacks and independent of the network that can be sabotaged
Оne of my ideas is to have the lasers mounted on a railroad track so they can have some form of mobility.
 
Mini reactor to be protected from attacks and independent of the network that can be sabotaged
Оne of my ideas is to have the lasers mounted on a railroad track so they can have some form of mobility.
That would just limit weight and therefore power. It's a terminal defence and you know the areas that need to be defended, so why would it need to be mobile?
 
Were aerosol clouds ever studied as means of BMD?
 
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Mini reactor to be protected from attacks and independent of the network that can be sabotaged
Оne of my ideas is to have the lasers mounted on a railroad track so they can have some form of mobility.
That would just limit weight and therefore power. It's a terminal defence and you know the areas that need to be defended, so why would it need to be mobile?
more to be something like a mobile platform and to be able to move where they needed . But it is not bad to be a stationary defense in big cities
 
more to be something like a mobile platform and to be able to move where they needed . But it is not bad to be a stationary defense in big cities
Without some major break-through in technology, I think mobile lasers will be limited to the C-RAM and maybe anti-cruise missile role for some time.
 
more to be something like a mobile platform and to be able to move where they needed . But it is not bad to be a stationary defense in big cities
Without some major break-through in technology, I think mobile lasers will be limited to the C-RAM and maybe anti-cruise missile role for some time.
They're evolving faster than you would think but primarily are staying with IR instead of going to shorter wavelengths.
 
 
This was an interesting one.


Hypersonic-Missile-Defense-21st-Century-Flak-1.jpg
 
From SNA 2023: PAC-3 from VLS:

View attachment 690876


That cell size is strange though. PAC-3, even MSE, isn't that large in diameter.

Everything old is new again. The Navy wanted to do this (and you posted about it) in 2008. And there was a notional stretched PAC-3 (maybe called Pegasus) intended to quadpack into a VLS as early as 1995.



The MSE motor is 11.5 inches in diameter, just too fat to quadpack into a Mk41.
 
I've wondering for a long time if perhaps a unique warhead would have a better area effect against something hypersonic. At Mach 5+, especially if it is very plus, it seems to me overheating the structure or hitting it with something that erodes its surface could be effective in making it depart controlled flight. Possibly something as simple as powdered aluminum or tungsten, though I'm just thinking of things cheap and basic. But something that heats or erodes a surface already under a lot of pressure and heat. And you could potential make a small cloud of it that hung in the air; unlike conventional shrapnel it wouldn't necessarily immediately dissipate.
 
Everything old is new again. The Navy wanted to do this (and you posted about it) in 2008. And there was a notional stretched PAC-3 (maybe called Pegasus) intended to quadpack into a VLS as early as 1995.



The MSE motor is 11.5 inches in diameter, just too fat to quadpack into a Mk41.
But could you dual-pack two diagonally? And what about the Zumwalt Mk57.
 
I've wondering for a long time if perhaps a unique warhead would have a better area effect against something hypersonic. At Mach 5+, especially if it is very plus, it seems to me overheating the structure or hitting it with something that erodes its surface could be effective in making it depart controlled flight. Possibly something as simple as powdered aluminum or tungsten, though I'm just thinking of things cheap and basic. But something that heats or erodes a surface already under a lot of pressure and heat. And you could potential make a small cloud of it that hung in the air; unlike conventional shrapnel it wouldn't necessarily immediately dissipate.
 
From SNA 2023: PAC-3 from VLS:

View attachment 690876


That cell size is strange though. PAC-3, even MSE, isn't that large in diameter.

Everything old is new again. The Navy wanted to do this (and you posted about it) in 2008. And there was a notional stretched PAC-3 (maybe called Pegasus) intended to quadpack into a VLS as early as 1995.



The MSE motor is 11.5 inches in diameter, just too fat to quadpack into a Mk41.
I would have thought they could get at least two in there, diagonally.
 
I would have thought they could get at least two in there, diagonally.

Probably. But this is easier. And who knows, maybe it's sitting on top of a 21-inch booster under there for some serious get up and go.

Or, possibly, this is MSE technology blown out to 13-14 inches diameter.
 
I would have thought they could get at least two in there, diagonally.

Probably. But this is easier. And who knows, maybe it's sitting on top of a 21-inch booster under there for some serious get up and go.

Or, possibly, this is MSE technology blown out to 13-14 inches diameter.
Yeah, compared to the cell, it does look larger in dia than the typical PAC-3.
 
Yeah, compared to the cell, it does look larger in dia than the typical PAC-3.

Another possibility, not to be discounted, is that they had a Mk41 model and a PAC-3 model at different scales and decided to combine them for a low-cost display, rather than making a new model of either one.

According to wiki it's 255mm vs 300mm.

Yes, but the difference is all in the motor section at the aft end of the missile, which is not visible here.

pac-3-details-2.jpg
 
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