• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Cruiser Destroyer

Purpletrouble

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 16, 2019
Messages
292
Reaction score
205
But then the whole concept of cruiser-destroyer would just start to fell apart, and they would become a very costly destroyers. Moreover, they would be a very useless costly destroyers, since their anti-surface function was just not applicable; there were no Sverdlov's to hunt in open sea, and in naval combat against Soviet cruiser-destroyer squadrons, the whole concept just wasn't very practical.
A costly destroyer is exactly what this concept was, a destroyer enlarged to take a very powerful, fully automatic, dual purpose main armament that could engage aircraft and enemy cruisers without being as expensive as a contemporary cruiser. The entire concept relied on the very high RoF guns being able to inflict sufficient damage on the target cruiser to render its armament useless before its slow firing guns could find the range and start achieving significant hits on the cruiser-destroyer.

This link gives a reasonable view of what the RN thought the Sverdlov class were all about.
Very interesting link and a strong case given the Sverdlov numbers/dispositions - I think it does miss that NA39 of course offered a lot more than anti-Sverdlov and so wasnt so much an unconventional response but adding this justification to what you wanted for more core/traditional reasons.
For all the technical knowledge - the “so what” is what they planned to do with them, although of course that can change fast once the asset with it’s inherent abilities exists!
 

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,712
Reaction score
934
Excuse the lengthy post but these are some of the milestones from the first FADEs to the County.
Its clear that the Cruiser-Destroyer was seen as too big and expensive to be a small ship to operate like a destroyer. Adding facilities for self-sustainability added growth and then it seemed wise to add some armour and then it was a light cruiser. Note that only Design II had two Type 984, they were quickly removed from later versions.
Improved Daring looked cheaper until they loaded on goodies like air con and stabilisers and soon it was emasculated until it merged with the A/S Fast Escort. 'Super' Daring was an attempt to get back to the Cruiser-Destroyer but it quickly died and led directly to the County via the GW studies. County was bigger than anything scoped out before in these studies and also had a completely new hullform as it moved away from its Daring origins.

Note: all displacements are deep tonnage and all speeds and endurances deep and dirty unless otherwise stated .

FADE I: January 1946, Daring with 1x Type 980 and 1x Type 981, loses aft 4.5in mount and torpedo tubes but would have 3x2 40mm BUSTER and 4x1 40mm Bofors

FADE II: January 1946, 1942 Battle with 1x Type 980 and 1x Type 981, loses midships 4in starshell gun, torpedo tubes and 4x2 40mm and in some lost ‘B’ mount to Double Squid

FADE III: April 1946, 8ft longer Daring, 3,370 tons, armed with 2x2 4.5in, 4x BUSTERs and 2x1 Bofors

FADE IV: April 1946, 12ft longer Daring, 3,313 tons, 31.5kt, two Type 980 forward and 1x Type 981 aft, armed with 2x2 4.5in, 4x BUSTERs and 2x1 Bofors

Fleet Destroyer: based on Daring FADE III, 3,523 tons, 3x2 4.5in with a Mk VI director, 4x2 40mm STAAG, 2x5 21in torpedo tubes and Limbo

FADE III: June 1946, authorised for further development, 383ft x 42ft 9in x 22ft, 3,428 tons, 2x Type 980 and 2x Type 981, 2x2 45in (split fore and aft), 4x STAAG, 2x1 Bofors Mk.VIII, Limbo

FADE IIIB: with Type 960P search radar

FADE IIIF: forecastle extended aft for flush deck, 383ft x 42ft 9in x 22ft, 3,495 tons, 2x Type 982 and 2x Type 983 and 1x Type 960, 2x2 45in (split fore and aft), 4x STAAG, 2x1 Bofors Mk.VIII, Squid. Work stopped July 1947 due to economic situation

FADE VI: March 1947, converted minelayer Abdiel – later Dido class Scylla but abandoned in 1949

Cruiser-Destroyer: June 1949, 465ft x 48ft x 34ft (hull depth), 4,600 tons, 2x 30,000shp YE.47A steam plants for 30.5kt, 4,500nm at 20kt, 3x1 5in with GDS 3 (6-channel Type 992), 8x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, Limbo, Ruler anti-torpedo defence, Types 960, 992, 277Q radars and Type 170 and 172 sonars or the new long-range set (177). Cost was £2.5M compared to £1.75M for Daring or £5.5M for a cruiser.

Cruiser-Destroyer: January 1950, 3x1 3in/50 (US model) added plus Type 982 and Type 983 radars, displacement exceeded 4,600 tons

Cruiser-Destroyer: March 1950, endurance reduced to 3,000nm at 22.5kt and Type 984 proposed to replace Types 982/983 and so was in advance of FADE requirements

Cruiser-Destroyer Design I: February 1951, 4,709 tons, 4,500nm at 20kt, 3x1 5in/62 with MRS-3, 2x1 3in/50 (US model), 8x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, Limbo, Ruler anti-torpedo defence, Types 960, 992, 932 and 974 radars and Type 162, 170, 175, 176 and 177 sonars

Cruiser-Destroyer Design II: February 1951, 4,764 tons, added 2x Type 984 (calculated then at 19 tons each) and ‘Q’ 5in mount moved to superfiring ‘B’ position

Cruiser-Destroyer Design III: February 1951, 4,768 tons, replaced the Type 984 with Types 982/983 and added a third 3in gun but length problems saw all three guns superfiring in ‘A’, ‘B’ and ‘C’ positions. July 1952 became 4,800 tons and DNC decided to limit to 4,750 tons to give 250 tons growth throughout the service life.

Cruiser-Destroyer: 5 August 1952, 435ft x 50ft x 34ft (hull depth), 4,750 tons, 60,000shp for 30.75kt (deep, tropics) [Y.102 COSAG tried but abandoned], 3,050nm at 22.5kt, 2x2 5in/62 with GDS 3 (6-channel Type 992), 2x2 40mm L70 Bofors, 1x 4.5in starshell gun, 6x fixed (or 2x5 rotating) 21in torpedo tubes, Limbo, 2x3 Camrose anti-torpedo defence, Types 960, 982/983 and 974 radars

Design Study 25 ‘5in Light Cruiser’ [Cruiser-Destroyer crossed out]: 24 April 1953, Daring hullform with flush deck, 13ft draught, 4,750 tons, 29.5kt (deep, tropics), 3,000nm at 22.5kt, 2x2 5in/62, 2x2 40mm L70 Bofors, 1x 4.5in starshell gun in ‘B’ position, 2x4 21in torpedo tubes, Limbo, Types 960, 982/983, 277Q and 974 radars and Types 170 and 174 sonars. Later to save weight the 4.5in gun was replaced by a rocket launcher, torpedo tubes made fixed and Type 983 radar removed. Adding protection would increase displacement to 5,000 tons and require 2ft more beam and 62,000shp. End of Cruiser-Destroyer.

Scaled-up Cruiser-Destroyer: July 1953, 490ft, 7,900 tons with addition of 850 tons of protection, an extra 2x L70 Bofors and 3,500nm at 22.5kt endurance

Updated Daring: 20 May 1953, flush deck, 405ft x 48 ft x 13.4ft, 4,300 tons, 54,000shp for 30.5kt, 3,000nm at 22.5kt, 3x2 4.5in Mk.VI with 2x MRS-3, 2x2 40mm L70 Bofors, 8x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, Squid, Types 960, 277Q and 974 radars

Updated Daring: July 1953, flush deck, 400ft x 48 ft, 4,250 tons, 60,000shp YEAD.1 for 30kt, 4,400nm at 20kt, 3x2 4.5in Mk.VI with 2x MRS-3, 2x2 40mm L70 Bofors with 2x MRS-3, 8x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, Squid, Types 960, 277Q and 974 radars

Updated Daring: July 1953, 400ft x 48 ft, 3,567 tons, YEAD.1 for 30.5kt, 3,000nm at 22.5kt, 1x2 or 2x1 5in/62 with 2x MRS-3, 2x2 or 3x2 40mm L70 Bofors, 2x5 21in torpedo tubes, Squid

Updated/Improved Daring: October 1953, 415ft, 4,250 tons, 60,000shp Y.102 COSAG for 30.5kt, 3x2 120mm Bofors with 4x MRS-3, 2x2 or 3x2 40mm L70 Bofors, 12x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, Limbo

Updated/Improved Daring: October 1953, , 4,000 tons, Y.102 for 30.5kt, 2x2 120mm Bofors, 12x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, Limbo

Updated/Improved Daring: October 1953, 375ft, 3,500 tons, Y.102 for 30.5kt, 1x2 120mm Bofors, 1x2 3in L70, 12x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, Limbo

Updated Daring: October 1954, 3,644 tons, 29.75kt (deep), 3x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 2x2 Bofors L70, 8x fixed 21in torpedo tubes Squid, lacked electric generation capacity

Updated Daring: October 1954, 400ft x 46ft 6in x 13ft 3in, 4,100 tons, Y.102 for 30kt, 3x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 2x2 Bofors L70, 8x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, Squid. Led to Super Daring.

‘Super’ Daring: November 1954, has a double bottom, 460ft x 48ft x 31ft (hull depth), 5,000 tons, Y.102 for 30.5kt, 3,600nm at 20kt, 2x2 4.5in Mk.VI forward, 1x2 3in L/70 aft, 2x2 Bofors L70, 12x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, Limbo, radar included SPS-6C for fighter control, space for 490 crew. Considered too large as a destroyer so DNC wanted less reliance on depot ships and too large to be unprotected

Improved Daring Cruiser: 525ft, 6,500 tons, Y.102 and 1.5in side and 1in tops to magazines and splinter armour over ops room, chart house and bridge

‘Super’ Daring: December 1954, 435ft x 48ft x 14ft, 4,500 tons, 30.5kt, 3,000nm at 20kt, 2x2 4.5in Mk.VI forward, 1x2 3in L/70 aft, 2x2 Bofors L70 (later 1x2 and later none), 6x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, SPS-6C removed and GDS reduced and crew of 475, Types 170, 176 and 177 or VDS. Raising to 4,600 tons gave 2% board margin and 2x2 Bofors without MRS-3. 4,750 tons would provide air conditioning or stabilisers but length of 445ft. Size of Y.102 kept growing but only choice as steam not considered suitable and YEAD grown by 200 tons.

‘Super’ Daring: February 1955, 400ft x 45ft, 4,000 tons, 1x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 1x2 3in L/70, 6x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, Limbo. Needed 441 crew but only space for 425, could not have air conditioning or stabilisers or a double bottom. Sea Lords then wanted 3,600nm endurance which would need 435ft.

‘Super’ Daring: 20 February 1955, no double bottom, 415ft x 45ft, 4,250 tons, 30.6kt, 3,000nm at 20kt, 1x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 1x2 3in L/70, 6x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, Limbo

‘Super’ Daring: 20 February 1955, double bottom, 425ft x 47ft 6in x 31ft 9in (hull depth), 4,350 tons, 30.65kt, 3,000nm at 20kt, 1x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 1x2 3in L/70, 6x fixed 21in torpedo tubes, Limbo. Had now effectively merged with Fast Escort.

Fast Escort: 17 May 1955, 450ft x 49ft (50ft at weather deck) x 32ft (hull depth) x 14ft, 4,500 tons, 30.5kt, 3,000nm at 20kt, 2x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 1x2 3in L/70, Limbo, space for 497 crew. Shown to Mountbatten. Developed to 4,800 tons which led to County class design.

Fast Escort: 17 May 1955, 430ft x 47ft 6in x 32ft (hull depth) x 14ft, 4,350 tons, 30.5kt, 3,000nm at 20kt, 1x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 1x2 3in L/70, Limbo, space for 395 crew .Not shown to Mountbatten.

Fast Escort: May 1955, 435ft x 48ft x 31ft (hull depth) x 14ft, 30.5kt, 3,000nm at 20kt, 2x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 1x2 3in L/70, no Limbo but Type 177 retained for evasion

GW53: 5 May 1955, new design not based on Fast Escort, 500ft x 71ft x 17ft 9in, 9,850 tons, 70,000shp steam for 29.25kt, 3,000nm at 20kt, 2x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 2x2 40mm L/70, 1x launcher for 36x Sea Slug, Types 960, 982, 983 and 901 radar

GW54: 16 May 1955, based on Fast Escort, 430ft x 47ft 6in x 14ft 6in, 4,550 tons, Y.102 for 31kt, 3,000nm at 20kt, 1x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 1x launcher for 12x Sea Slug, Types 960 and 901 radar

GW55: 16 May 1955, based on Fast Escort, 450ft x 49ft x 15ft, 5,000 tons, Y.102 for 30kt, 3,000nm at 20kt, 2x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 1x2 40mm L/70, 1x launcher for 12x Sea Slug, Types 960, 277Q and 901 radar

GW56: 16 May 1955, based on Fast Escort, 450ft x 49ft x 15ft, 4,900 tons, Y.102 for 30kt, 3,000nm at 20kt, 1x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 1x launcher for 12x Sea Slug, 6x fixed torpedo tubes for Bidder A/S torpedoes, Types 960 and 901 radar

GW57: 16 May 1955, based on Fast Escort, 470ft x 50ft 6in x 15ft, 5,400 tons, Y.102 for 30kt, 3,000nm at 20kt, 2x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 1x2 40mm L/70, 1x launcher for 12x Sea Slug, 6x fixed torpedo tubes for Bidder A/S torpedoes, Types 960, 277Q and 901 radar. Selected for further development as County.

County: 520ft 6in x 54ft x 16ft 16in, 6,076 tons, Y.102 for 31.5kt (deep, clean), 3,500nm at 20kt, 2x2 4.5in Mk.VI, 1x launcher for 36x Sea Slug, 2x launchers for 36x Sea Cats, 1x Westland Wessex helicopter
 

zen

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2007
Messages
1,798
Reaction score
550
GW.53 is intriguing. I can't quite figure out why it's so large yet.
But while I dismissed it when I first saw the numbers now I wonder.....
 

pathology_doc

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
948
Reaction score
170
Note: all displacements are deep tonnage and all speeds and endurances deep and dirty unless otherwise stated .
Ball-park size perspective: a Leander class cruiser was 550ft long and might push 9000 tons at full load. A Dido is 512ft long and up to 7600 tons. A Daring is 390ft and 3820 tons, so the Cruiser-Destroyer on the cover of Postwar Naval Revolution is somewhere smack bang in the middle. For some reason the artwork makes her look much, much bigger to me.
 

starviking

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2006
Messages
1,018
Reaction score
97
GW.53 is intriguing. I can't quite figure out why it's so large yet.
But while I dismissed it when I first saw the numbers now I wonder.....
If I recall correctly, there was a change in the storage of Sea Slug rounds which made everything less volume-limited, so perhaps GW.53 is before this date?
 
  • Like
Reactions: zen

zen

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2007
Messages
1,798
Reaction score
550
GW.53 is intriguing. I can't quite figure out why it's so large yet.
But while I dismissed it when I first saw the numbers now I wonder.....
If I recall correctly, there was a change in the storage of Sea Slug rounds which made everything less volume-limited, so perhaps GW.53 is before this date?
Yes but looking at the posted table over in the NIGS thread GW.53 is armoured and that is the likely answer.

Still it's interesting to note it's not far from much later NIGS study I think CONAD powerplant.

I do wonder if this is a better basis than the 6000ton County.
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,352
Reaction score
648
Excuse the lengthy post but these are some of the milestones from the first FADEs to the County.
Its clear that the Cruiser-Destroyer was seen as too big and expensive to be a small ship to operate like a destroyer. Adding facilities for self-sustainability added growth and then it seemed wise to add some armour and then it was a light cruiser. Note that only Design II had two Type 984, they were quickly removed from later versions.
Improved Daring looked cheaper until they loaded on goodies like air con and stabilisers and soon it was emasculated until it merged with the A/S Fast Escort. 'Super' Daring was an attempt to get back to the Cruiser-Destroyer but it quickly died and led directly to the County via the GW studies. County was bigger than anything scoped out before in these studies and also had a completely new hullform as it moved away from its Daring origins.
Absolutely agree, and thank you for laying out all the various studies in chronological order.

This is all about accommodating several different roles within the escort force, initially with them duplicated within slower ships for convoy escort work and faster ships for fleet escort work. The distinction disappears in the mid-late 1950s, along with much of the convoy escort role itself and truly multipurpose ships emerge. To demonstrate:

FD - Air Direction Frigate - Type 61 for convoy escort work, FADE is essentially this role but faster and ultimately delivered by four converted Weapon class destroyers
FA - Anti-Aircraft Frigate - Type 41 for convoy escort work, the fast A/A escort is the fleet version
FSA - First Rate anti-Submarine Frigate - this is where things get interesting - the high speed of the Type 12/12I, intended to allow it to counter fast submarines, ultimately allowed it to provide fleet escort. The next evolution, the Leander class, becomes multirole by taking on-board some of the Air Direction role (with the addition of Type 965 AKE 1), it sacrifices one gun system for anti-aircraft work but has Seacat as a form of compensation. By the late 1950s, what had been six separate ships types has become one and the next incarnation is to be the Leander follow-on concepts that ultimately become the Type 82 (Type 965 AKE 1 replaced by the ASWE C-band set, SIGS to replace the 4.5" Mk.6, Ikara to replace MATCH).

The County class, as you say, scale up out of the of Super-Daring studies and end up accommodating Seaslug in addition to a Type 965 AKE 2 and a reasonable ASW capability. Effectively another multirole warship, this time scaled around Seaslug.

The surface-surface anti-Sverdlov role progressively becomes less relevant, not least because the Soviets stop building them, and the role ends up residing in the progressively wasting extant cruiser fleet. The final 1957 Seaslug cruisers are interesting in that they end up being multirole too, super-FADE with Type 984, Seaslug platforms and surface-surface anti-Sverdlov all in one ship.

It all speaks to the rapid evolution of the threat, in the early 1950s the Soviet Fleet as it would threaten the RN consisted of SSKs and gun armed cruisers and destroyers whilst Soviet Naval Aviation largely consisted of subsonic torpedo bombers, all of which were still being procured until 1953. By the late 1950s it is becoming a much more missile orientated force that was acquiring SSNs.

I have come to view the 1950s as far more important in setting the direction of RN ship design than the later Future Fleet Working party which basically provided course correction after the disastrous cost (in monetary and manpower terms) growth in the Type 82.
 
Last edited:

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,712
Reaction score
934
This is all about accommodating several different roles within the escort force, initially with them duplicated within slower ships for convoy escort work and faster ships for fleet escort work. The distinction disappears in the mid-late 1950s, along with much of the convoy escort role itself and truly multipurpose ships emerge. To demonstrate:
I did of course omit the 1953 Fast A/S Escort series for fleet escort from my post, they formed a similar pattern but emphasised anti-submarine capabilities (forgoing the 4.5in Mk.VI), starting 375ft 2,910 tons and ending up as 405ft, 3,800 tons. The designs effectively merged with the Darings and led to the Super Daring and Fast Escort studies. As you say, the latter offered a multi-role approach. The end of the defended convoy as a concept in thermonuclear war effectively ended the destroyer = fleet escort and frigate = convoy escort split, the FSA taking on both roles in the A/S sphere.

It may appear wasteful to our eyes with hindsight to follow two destroyer paths (effectively the Fast A/S Escort was duplicating FSA too), but its clear that early 1950s technology just couldn't provide a multi-purpose design that was affordable and of reasonable size. By 1955 the planned weapons systems and sensors (as well as the YEAD and Y.102 powerplants) were maturing and it was easier to what could or could not fit.
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,352
Reaction score
648
It may appear wasteful to our eyes with hindsight to follow two destroyer paths (effectively the Fast A/S Escort was duplicating FSA too), but its clear that early 1950s technology just couldn't provide a multi-purpose design that was affordable and of reasonable size. By 1955 the planned weapons systems and sensors (as well as the YEAD and Y.102 powerplants) were maturing and it was easier to what could or could not fit.
Absolutely. An example of how technological evolution in systems, real and planned, enabled this can be seen in the distribution of radars across the escort mix and those escorts ability to handle the generated data. Type 984 3D radar ended up being installed in carriers only (Victorious, Hermes and Eagle) but was also intended for the Seaslug cruisers, it needed a big ship. The DLGs had to make do with separate 2D (Type 965 AKE 2) and height finding (Type 278) sets and less detection range. Ships without the Type 984 had to utilise Digital Plot Transmission (DPT) to receive plots from the carrier they were escorting. Compounding that, getting a large number of tracks out of the Comprehensive Display System required ship volume; Victorious had 48 tracks, Hermes had 32 tracks and the Batch II DLGs had 24. A 16 track version was considered, but never included in the staff requirement, for cruiser modernisations. All of those against an original design that had 96 tracks.

By contrast, ADAWS 1 in the Batch II DLGs had 256 tracks and ADAWS 2 for Bristol had 500+. The NSR was planned to provide a big 3D radar for both the carrier and DLG sized escorts. It was supplanted by the Type 988 that came out big despite it originally being intended for small ships, as discussed here, but would still have delivered a set that was suitable for DLG sized vessels. In the space of a little over 5 years, certainly less than a decade, the RN had gone from having a big 3D radar and 48 track data handling system that was only really applicable to carriers and new build cruisers to developing a big 3D radar and 500+ track data handling system that could be fitted, at a push, in DLGs.

The effect of this can be seen in the fate of the gun cruiser designs. As mentioned earlier, the Seaslug cruisers have three big roles, Seaslug platform, Type 984/CDS platform, surface-surface anti-Sverdlov. By the late 1950s the Sverdlov threat has become much less relevant so that role loses importance and DLGs can carry Seaslug. At that point, with the carrier carrying the Type 984 able to transmit plots via DPT to the DLGs, there was little reason left to pursue expensive new-build cruisers.
 
Last edited:
Top