Scott Kenny

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Without the London/Washington Naval Treaties, I do believe that the typical cruiser would be closer to Alaska than to Baltimore/Des Moines. 9.2"-12" main guns and armor to match.
This came to mind in a thread about US ship production, and I thought it should be spun off into its own thread for proper discussion.

While Armored Cruisers were overtaken by Battlecruisers leading up to WW1, I suspect that is largely because the existing (Armored) Cruisers were all still pre-dreadnought designs. They were still using a two-turret main battery with a casemate secondary battery. For example, HMS Minotaur had 2x2 9.2" turreted guns and 10x1 7.5" casemate guns, while the USN Pennsylvania-class had 2x2 8" turreted guns with 14x 6" casemate guns.

Without the treaties limiting not only displacement but gun caliber, I suspect that the cruisers would have settled out at 4x2 or 3x3 turreted guns of at least 8" caliber and 5" or 6" casemated guns (same casemate guns as their nation's battleships, actually). Then replaced with turreted secondaries in WW2. Probable displacement around 15-17,000 tons.
 
While Armored Cruisers were overtaken by Battlecruisers leading up to WW1, I suspect that is largely because the existing (Armored) Cruisers were all still pre-dreadnought designs. They were still using a two-turret main battery with a casemate secondary battery. For example, HMS Minotaur had 2x2 9.2" turreted guns and 10x1 7.5" casemate guns, while the USN Pennsylvania-class had 2x2 8" turreted guns with 14x 6" casemate guns.

A look at the Blucher, which was the German response to what they thought the Invincible BC was, shows they had 8.2" and 6" guns when the 'vince had 12" and 4". This conforms to pre-dread practice of similar calibre biggish guns rather then the dreads huge and small guns.

Without the treaties limiting not only displacement but gun caliber, I suspect that the cruisers would have settled out at 4x2 or 3x3 turreted guns of at least 8" caliber and 5" or 6" casemated guns (same casemate guns as their nation's battleships, actually). Then replaced with turreted secondaries in WW2. Probable displacement around 15-17,000 tons.

In WW1 cruisers including battlecruisers had 2 roles; scouting for the battlefleet and a wide ranging global role such as protecting trade and providing a presence in colonies etc. The big cruisers were displaced by BCs as fleet scouts alongside light cruisers but after a decade building BCs there appeared a gap in the global role. To address this gap the RN built the Hawkins class, 9,800t and 7.5" guns, so as BCs morphed into fast battleships and aircraft took on the scouting role this class of ship and the light cruiser was what was left.

IIUC the Hawkins class style of ship was favoured by the USN and IJN due to the vast Pacific distances, so at the very least this style of ship will be developed further.
 
We know from design studies postwar that most of the major naval powers were converging around a 10,000-ton ship with 8" guns before Washington - that's why that specific limit was set during the Treaty negotiations. Without Washington artificially capping cruisers at that level, you might see an escalation to Alaska-type ships, given the Brits were giving serious consideration to ships with 10" guns in 1921 and if they do that you can bet your ass the Japanese are going to try it. And then someone is going to jump to 12" in that case.

However, I don't think cruisers would stay at that level, because everyone involved needs too many cruisers to spend that much money on individual ships. USN design work rejected 12,000-ton cruisers as too expensive to acquire in the numbers needed - and if 12,000 tons was too much ship then the 19,000 tons of a 10" cruiser and the 20,000+ of a 12" cruiser sure as hell will be too much ship.

Without the treaties limiting not only displacement but gun caliber, I suspect that the cruisers would have settled out at 4x2 or 3x3 turreted guns of at least 8" caliber and 5" or 6" casemated guns (same casemate guns as their nation's battleships, actually).
Looking at the designs from the 1919-1921 period, while a few designs did have casemated secondary guns, based particularly on the USN designs I don't think any casemated designs would actually be built. 5"/6" casemate guns are for antiship work, particularly swatting destroyers, and as such are not of very much value on cruisers designed to operate in open ocean and fight other cruisers. The USN designs in question had pedestal-mounted secondary batteries focused on anti-aircraft fire.

~o~
A no-London scenario is clearer and more specific thanks to Washington restrictions still applying and navies being a lot firmer in their plans going in. Japan wanted four improved Takaos, which would give them the 16 Class A cruisers they needed; very likely they would build some number of small light cruisers to start replacing their 5500-tonners. Britain was very reluctantly moving toward the Surrey design; they would've built at most four and possibly fewer before switching to Leanders. The USN wanted five more New Orleans than they actually got.

Where the USN goes from there, I don't know; with Japan and Britain I can at least make a good guess.
 
We know from design studies postwar that most of the major naval powers were converging around a 10,000-ton ship with 8" guns before Washington - that's why that specific limit was set during the Treaty negotiations. Without Washington artificially capping cruisers at that level, you might see an escalation to Alaska-type ships, given the Brits were giving serious consideration to ships with 10" guns in 1921 and if they do that you can bet your ass the Japanese are going to try it. And then someone is going to jump to 12" in that case.

However, I don't think cruisers would stay at that level, because everyone involved needs too many cruisers to spend that much money on individual ships. USN design work rejected 12,000-ton cruisers as too expensive to acquire in the numbers needed - and if 12,000 tons was too much ship then the 19,000 tons of a 10" cruiser and the 20,000+ of a 12" cruiser sure as hell will be too much ship.
Yet the Baltimore class was 13,000tons.

I'm going to ignore the Des Memes, the 8" automatics forced a significant enlargement of the ship, up to 17,250tons.



Looking at the designs from the 1919-1921 period, while a few designs did have casemated secondary guns, based particularly on the USN designs I don't think any casemated designs would actually be built. 5"/6" casemate guns are for antiship work, particularly swatting destroyers, and as such are not of very much value on cruisers designed to operate in open ocean and fight other cruisers. The USN designs in question had pedestal-mounted secondary batteries focused on anti-aircraft fire.
Okay, though that suggests 5" guns on pedestals instead of 6" guns. Better rate of fire because the ammunition is lighter and can be loaded as a single unit. (And then replacing with turreted 5" guns later on.)



A no-London scenario is clearer and more specific thanks to Washington restrictions still applying and navies being a lot firmer in their plans going in. Japan wanted four improved Takaos, which would give them the 16 Class A cruisers they needed; very likely they would build some number of small light cruisers to start replacing their 5500-tonners. Britain was very reluctantly moving toward the Surrey design; they would've built at most four and possibly fewer before switching to Leanders. The USN wanted five more New Orleans than they actually got.

Where the USN goes from there, I don't know; with Japan and Britain I can at least make a good guess.
I suspect that the USN would still likely go to the Alaska-class to hunt whatever the Japanese built post-Takao/Mogami.
 
I have found no naval game that really simulate the value of cruisers in a naval campaign, does anyone know of any that really plays out a surface raiding offense/defense campaign?

I don't think the actual nash equilibrium strategy for ship construction have been worked out, and planners probably just copy opponents and make hedges since they don't have have a perfect model of it or that of their futures. It would be interesting to figure out if they've gone down irrational fashions because some untestable in peacetime hypothesis has been believed (like for some strategic bombing advocates)
 
I have found no naval game that really simulate the value of cruisers in a naval campaign, does anyone know of any that really plays out a surface raiding offense/defense campaign?
I'm not aware of any. I mean, I'm aware of submarine games with a good campaign mode, and aware of fleet action level games, but not cruiser campaigns...




I don't think the actual nash equilibrium strategy for ship construction have been worked out, and planners probably just copy opponents and make hedges since they don't have have a perfect model of it or that of their futures.
Agreed, that sounds like what the interwar planners were doing.



It would be interesting to figure out if they've gone down irrational fashions because some untestable in peacetime hypothesis has been believed (like for some strategic bombing advocates)
Well, we could point at the Alaska-class as one possible example of that rabbit-hole. They had nothing to shoot at by the time they were completed.
 
The thing is that if unproven and unproveable conjectures is what is driving planners, some madman writing books influencing the political class can massively impact things. Imagine if another mahan shows up or something.
 
There are several possible lines of development:

* "Light battlecruisers" (like British "Courageous" and "Furious", American "scout battleships" and Japanese "X" cruisers) - relatively large, about 20.000 ton warships, armed with limited number of battleship-grade cannons (12-16 inch). Essentially the idea is to have units, both accessible for - relatively - mass construction, and still at least somewhat capable of fighting enemy battleships and "proper" battlecruisers

* "Big heavy cruisers" - 15.000-20.000 warships, mostly designed around the lines of real-world heavy cruisers, but with armament in 9-12 inch grade.

* "Big light cruisers" - the continued evolution of light cruiser, with slowly rising main armament (from 6-inch to 7-inch, 8-inch, ect.)
 
There are several possible lines of development:

* "Light battlecruisers" (like British "Courageous" and "Furious", American "scout battleships" and Japanese "X" cruisers) - relatively large, about 20.000 ton warships, armed with limited number of battleship-grade cannons (12-16 inch). Essentially the idea is to have units, both accessible for - relatively - mass construction, and still at least somewhat capable of fighting enemy battleships and "proper" battlecruisers

* "Big heavy cruisers" - 15.000-20.000 warships, mostly designed around the lines of real-world heavy cruisers, but with armament in 9-12 inch grade.

* "Big light cruisers" - the continued evolution of light cruiser, with slowly rising main armament (from 6-inch to 7-inch, 8-inch, ect.)
I guess you could call my thoughts as "Big Light Cruisers", as the Baltimore-class had a hull shape derived from Brooklyn- and Cleveland-class CLs, with twice as many secondary guns and 3x3 8" main battery.

Both the US and UK would likely follow the Big Light Cruiser paradigm. The UK to protect its Empire, and the US to deal with the distances of the Pacific. Big CLs would be the least expensive of the paradigms per ship, and the US and UK need many ships.

Japan's "decisive battle" doctrine pushes them towards Big Heavy Cruisers and Light Battlecruisers. Probably building significantly more Big CAs than Light BCs, but Amagi-class (10x16") and/or B-65s (9x12") were definitely going to happen. Yes, B-65s are 32,000 tons, but so is the Alaska-class. I think ~32ktons is about as small as you can make a 33knot 12" gun ship.

And of course, if Japan is building B-65s, the US is definitely going to build some Light BCs like the Alaska-class, just to counter the Japanese ships. The UK may-or-may-not build a few Light BCs, or they may built more of their standard BCs.
 
Did any other navy have an equal to the RNs Arethusa class, tiny with 3 x 2 6" guns? Or was that a result of the RNs mania with numbers arising from Britain's particular circumstances?
 
Did any other navy have an equal to the RNs Arethusa class, tiny with 3 x 2 6" guns? Or was that a result of the RNs mania with numbers arising from Britain's particular circumstances?
I'm not aware of any. I think it was a desperate attempt to make numbers.
 
I have found no naval game that really simulate the value of cruisers in a naval campaign, does anyone know of any that really plays out a surface raiding offense/defense campaign?
Avalanche's Cruiser Warfare, about to be re-released as The Far Side of the World, is built around the German East Asia squadron's attempt to get home, with a strategic map covering the entire globe. Other scenarios cover the various lone raiders.

 
I think the assumption cruiser armament would converge on 8" is a fallacy. If that was the case why did everyone, literally everyone, keep building 6" cruisers, while building far fewer 8" cruisers. The point of a cruiser isn't to defeat enemy cruisers, it's to prevent enemy commerce raiding, and you can do that by shipping enough armament to threaten the other guy's chance of returning home, you don't have to sink him yourself.

6" lets you threaten damage to a raider while engaged in commerce protection, and blow destroyers out of the water while engaged in fleet work or functioning as a destroyer leader. You don't need anything more.

The RN considered the Hawkins a disaster because it caused the USN and IJN to focus on unaffordable 10,000t cruisers, where the RN needed the focus to be 6,000t to permit them the numbers needed worldwide.
 
Yet the Baltimore class was 13,000tons.

I'm going to ignore the Des Memes, the 8" automatics forced a significant enlargement of the ship, up to 17,250tons.

That was because the US had begun to realize that the Japanese and German heavy cruisers were bigger than had been declared, and now were AT LEAST AS POWERFUL as current USN cruisers, and the USN thus needed go "go big" as well.
 
I guess you could call my thoughts as "Big Light Cruisers", as the Baltimore-class had a hull shape derived from Brooklyn- and Cleveland-class CLs, with twice as many secondary guns and 3x3 8" main battery.
The Cleveland class CLs had 12 x 5'/38 DP guns in 6 twin turrets... exactly the same as the Baltimores, Des Moines, and Alaskas had.

The Brooklyns had the same 5" battery as their contemporary USN heavy cruisers had - 8 x 5"/25 AA guns in single mounts (except for St. Louis and Helena, which had 8 x 5"/38 DP in 4 twin mounts).
 
I think the assumption cruiser armament would converge on 8" is a fallacy. If that was the case why did everyone, literally everyone, keep building 6" cruisers, while building far fewer 8" cruisers. The point of a cruiser isn't to defeat enemy cruisers, it's to prevent enemy commerce raiding, and you can do that by shipping enough armament to threaten the other guy's chance of returning home, you don't have to sink him yourself.

6" lets you threaten damage to a raider while engaged in commerce protection, and blow destroyers out of the water while engaged in fleet work or functioning as a destroyer leader. You don't need anything more.

The RN considered the Hawkins a disaster because it caused the USN and IJN to focus on unaffordable 10,000t cruisers, where the RN needed the focus to be 6,000t to permit them the numbers needed worldwide.

It's horses for courses, the US doesn't have the need for trade protection that Britain does, nor does it have a network of bases. So the US preferred fewer 8" cruisers and the RN lots of 6" cruisers.
 
Did any other navy have an equal to the RNs Arethusa class, tiny with 3 x 2 6" guns? Or was that a result of the RNs mania with numbers arising from Britain's particular circumstances?
The German cruiser Emden of 1925 was similar in displacement. 8 x 15 cm guns in single turrets, arranged to offer a broadside of six guns on either side. One built only.
 
I have found no naval game that really simulate the value of cruisers in a naval campaign, does anyone know of any that really plays out a surface raiding offense/defense campaign?

I don't think the actual nash equilibrium strategy for ship construction have been worked out, and planners probably just copy opponents and make hedges since they don't have have a perfect model of it or that of their futures. It would be interesting to figure out if they've gone down irrational fashions because some untestable in peacetime hypothesis has been believed (like for some strategic bombing advocates)
Kriegsspiel
 
I think the assumption cruiser armament would converge on 8" is a fallacy. If that was the case why did everyone, literally everyone, keep building 6" cruisers, while building far fewer 8" cruisers. The point of a cruiser isn't to defeat enemy cruisers, it's to prevent enemy commerce raiding, and you can do that by shipping enough armament to threaten the other guy's chance of returning home, you don't have to sink him yourself.

6" lets you threaten damage to a raider while engaged in commerce protection, and blow destroyers out of the water while engaged in fleet work or functioning as a destroyer leader. You don't need anything more.

The RN considered the Hawkins a disaster because it caused the USN and IJN to focus on unaffordable 10,000t cruisers, where the RN needed the focus to be 6,000t to permit them the numbers needed worldwide.
Everyone built 6" cruisers because thats what the treaty allowed but both Japan and the US preferred 8" and switched back as soon as they could or in the case of Japan converted their 6" cruisers to 8" (Mogamis). The RN preferred 6" and pushed for those treaty limits.
 
Everyone built 6" cruisers because thats what the treaty allowed but both Japan and the US preferred 8" and switched back as soon as they could or in the case of Japan converted their 6" cruisers to 8" (Mogamis). The RN preferred 6" and pushed for those treaty limits.
The IJN had multiple roles for cruisers, and retained 6" gunned cruisers for flotilla leaders etc right through until the end of the war, with even the penultimate naval programme specifying new light cruiser construction.

Meanwhile, even after the massive procurement of Clevelands, the USN was still intent on building the Worcesters. And that's without getting into the 5" classes.
 
Did any other navy have an equal to the RNs Arethusa class, tiny with 3 x 2 6" guns? Or was that a result of the RNs mania with numbers arising from Britain's particular circumstances?
Aresthusas were less about raw numbers, and more about having ships with minimally-sized silhouettes for leading destroyer flotillas.
 
The heart of the issue is that in making larger and larger cruisers to outclass the cruisers of potential opponents you eventually make something as large and costly as a battleship. You've gone in a circle until you've reinvented the battlecruiser, with the same capital ship levels of investment required to build, crew, and operate. So what represents the best middle-ground for a heavy cruiser to provide the most utility in the fleet? Are 8" guns optimal or would a smaller number of larger caliber guns be better?

As for the subject of light cruisers, the Brooklyn and succeeding classes of relatively large designs seemed liked well-enough in US Navy service, but the expert consensus remained that the 6" gun didn't have the range and destructive power desired. Yet the high rate of fire those 6" guns had was valued highly enough for so many Cleveland class CLs were built even after the treaties had been made irrelevant. That's why so much effort was directed at creating the 8"/50 RF autoloading guns that would eventually be on the Des Moines class CAs. Unfortunately, those were a development too late for service during the war.

The dual-purpose 6"/47 guns that would eventually be on the Worcester class CLs were an effort that had been stopped and restarted several times because the USN seemingly couldn't make up their mind on their value. Those worked in the end, but the final USN consensus seems to have been not to pursue further developments in that caliber in favor of 8" and 5" gun designs.

In comparison the Royal Navy was much more enthusiastic about the 6" caliber and continued development of them leading to their ultimate form in the autoloading dual-purpose 6"/50 Mark N5 guns used on the Tiger class CLs. Yet by the time those were ready the war was long-over. The post-war RN couldn't afford more than converting 3 unfinished Swiftsure class hulls to use the new guns, let alone the new larger designs of light cruiser they desired to build.
 
Yet the Baltimore class was 13,000tons.

I'm going to ignore the Des Memes, the 8" automatics forced a significant enlargement of the ship, up to 17,250tons.
The Baltimores are built in a completely different context than the pre-Washington design studies. A non-exhaustive list of factors that drove the tonnage up that high are 1. recognition of large foreign cruisers with outsize firepower 2. wartime budgets 3. an existing mass of 10,000-ton cruisers so the ships don't need to be the whole fleet and 4. extensive experience with the Washington cruisers built telling them where their ideas had failed to pan out.

Point #2 is probably the most important one: even at that late stage there was a lot of handwringing in the USN about the Baltimores adding so much tonnage (and thus cost) for no increase in main gun firepower; without an imminent war situation during their design period and the accompanying open checkbook they might have still been built smaller or not at all.

Okay, though that suggests 5" guns on pedestals instead of 6" guns. Better rate of fire because the ammunition is lighter and can be loaded as a single unit. (And then replacing with turreted 5" guns later on.)
Correct. This was the evolution under the treaty regime basically the world over.

I suspect that the USN would still likely go to the Alaska-class to hunt whatever the Japanese built post-Takao/Mogami.
Maybe. The Alaskas were motivated in large part to fill in the tonnage gap between the battleships and 8" cruisers, but it was also a Foxbat situation where the USN thought Japan was building similar ships and they needed to match that.

Without that faulty intel the motivation is far less.

Did any other navy have an equal to the RNs Arethusa class, tiny with 3 x 2 6" guns? Or was that a result of the RNs mania with numbers arising from Britain's particular circumstances?
The two Thai cruisers that Italy took over as the Etna class are the closest equivalent - slower, but of similar tonnage and as designed identical firepower.

Aside from them Japan's late light cruiser designs had similar firepower on different lines of thought, but they wound up a fair bit bigger due to the higher speed asked of them. De Ruyter is similar but still has that extra gun. Similar designs were flogged to various minor powers but no one bit.

I think the assumption cruiser armament would converge on 8" is a fallacy. If that was the case why did everyone, literally everyone, keep building 6" cruisers, while building far fewer 8" cruisers. The point of a cruiser isn't to defeat enemy cruisers, it's to prevent enemy commerce raiding, and you can do that by shipping enough armament to threaten the other guy's chance of returning home, you don't have to sink him yourself.
They didn't. For nearly a decade after the Washington treaty only two major naval powers built any 6" cruisers whatsoever: the Germans, who were treaty-limited, and the French, who needed cruisers of all types just that badly.

Even when London kicked in, the Americans and Japanese would've been perfectly happy continuing this, which is why they were restricted in the first place!

6" lets you threaten damage to a raider while engaged in commerce protection, and blow destroyers out of the water while engaged in fleet work or functioning as a destroyer leader. You don't need anything more.

The RN considered the Hawkins a disaster because it caused the USN and IJN to focus on unaffordable 10,000t cruisers, where the RN needed the focus to be 6,000t to permit them the numbers needed worldwide.
Bluntly, this does not jive with what we know of RN thinking of the time. They wanted the 10,000-ton cruiser as much as the USN and Japan, the thinking being that director-controlled 8" guns conferred an insurmountable range advantage against ships with 6" guns in open water - and they were staring down a nightmare scenario of the Americans building 30 8" cruisers in three years.

Yet the high rate of fire those 6" guns had was valued highly enough for so many Cleveland class CLs were built even after the treaties had been made irrelevant.
In comparison the Royal Navy was much more enthusiastic about the 6" caliber and continued development of them leading to their ultimate form in the autoloading dual-purpose 6"/50 Mark N5 guns used on the Tiger class CLs.
War circumstances were involved far more than any sort of caliber preference. The RN built nothing but 6" cruisers because that was what they had building at the start of the war and once it was on there were no resources for anything fancier - none of the 8" cruiser projects got off the ground, but neither did any 6" cruiser project fancier than a warmed-over Fiji. And believe me, they wanted more 8" cruisers, especially after River Platte reminded them that their assumptions about the advantages of heavier calibers over 6" in open water were valid.

So many Clevelands, meanwhile, were built for much the same reason: as a minimum-modification of the last two Brooklyns, the Clevelands took less time to design and put in the water, a dire necessity with war imminent and the USN having wasted four years under Second London restrictions with only the four Atlantas to show for it. Notably, the Clevelands had been in combat for a year before the first Baltimores were even commissioned.
 
Without the weight limits of the WNT would Britain have been able to go with the Mk VIII 4.7" AA gun on cruisers rather than just Nelson, Rodney, Glorious and Courageous?
 
Without the weight limits of the WNT would Britain have been able to go with the Mk VIII 4.7" AA gun on cruisers rather than just Nelson, Rodney, Glorious and Courageous?
That's another "definitely maybe". The gun was recommended for new cruisers, but there was a significant minority who felt the extra range and punch wasn't worth the reduced rate of fire compared to the 4".
 
That's another "definitely maybe". The gun was recommended for new cruisers, but there was a significant minority who felt the extra range and punch wasn't worth the reduced rate of fire compared to the 4".

I can't help but think of the Mk VIII as a DP gun and it's proliferation from the late 20s putting the RN ahead of the game compared to everyone else.

On a slight tangent the 1930 Flotilla Leader HMS Codrington was planned to be fitted with the similar Mk VII, but this was cancelled. This looks to be a missed opportunity to me, in hindsight of course.
 

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