• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Contest 1934: A speedy bomber for the Royal Italian Air Force

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
Contest 1934: A speedy bomber for the Royal Italian Air Force
Talking about the characteristics and necessities of competition held by the Italian Ministry of Aeronautics in 1934 for a Terrestrial bomber <Veloce> (speedy) defined with the intention to evade enemy fighters; You must place in the political, economic and military at the time. The First World War ended in 1918 but ill-treated wounds and continued long effects, so much so that gave foot to the rise of fascism in Italy, proclaiming a new order and a strong policy of
autarchy; The economy after the Wall Street Crack in 1929 worsened conditions in many European countries and in particular for the "Sentenced" (from Versalles) German Weimar Republik, which suffered more than other the great economic depression in Europe, this fertile environment, prepared the rise of Hitler and his ideology of intolerance, based on the promise to restore lost pride and strength of Germany ..... for a people in to the limit of his strength and without a clear future, this "messianic" message, was received with greater fervor; Now from 1933 onwards the policy of Hitler was very aggressive towards other countries; France occupied the largest and richest regions of the Ruhr and Alsace, large numbers of Germans lived in the new nation of Poland, the British had take over the former overseas colonies of Germany etc etc. So, The new Germany government held by the new Chancellor Adolf Hitler, proclaimed a new Reich, claim for theiroldboundaries and its right to rearm the Nation; In 1934 abandoned the Conference on Disarmament in Geneva and a week after announcing the withdrawal from the League of Nations; relations between Germany and Austria began to degenerate, and the Austrian Chancellor Dolfus was killed at the end of July of 1934 by Austrian Nazis; Reaching the maximum tension in Europe, Mussolini threatened to intervene if Germany invaded Austria, sounded the general alarm throughout Europe and beginning a opened arms race, so in a few months at the end of 1934, all major European states called for many more contests for every type of armament. Many Bombers who came out of this process played important roles in the future second world war.

juznn37dlb.jpg


In those days the Standard bomber of the Regia (Italian Royal Air Force), was the three-engined Caproni Ca.133, combination of Transport / Bomber with a maximum speed of 230 km/h, even in the ranks was entering the three-engined Savoia Marchetti SM.81 "Bat" with a maximum speed of 330 km / h, strong and honest, but slow and insufficient on the renewed winds of war blowing across the continent.


jfj158xifi.jpg

The Italian Royal Air Force asked the Italian aircraft manufacturers to design a new medium land bomber. The specifications call for a twin-engined bomber, with retractable landing gear and defensive weapons including the Hispano Suiza 404 cannon and three 20-mm machine guns, with a speed of 330 km/h at an altitude of 4,500 meters and of 385 Km/h at an altitude of 5,000 meters, a range of 1,000 km and a load of 1,200 kg of bombs. Piaggio, Macchi, Breda, Caproni and Fiat made their proposals with the aircraft that, in principle, were faster than required but insufficient range and general characteristics of flight. The map below compare the general characteristics of various different specifications of the nations who call for new bombers from the period 1934-1935
43iwrgpljq.jpg


The range of action provided for these new and fast bombers allowed to hit the most important strategic objectives in Europe, along with the Mediterranean region, like much of North Africa, at least on paper ... but a good fighter coverage would shorten the secure Range, beyond that the bombers will count only to their speed and ability to surprise, but on strategic targets, it would be near a suicide mission.

The proposal aircrafts was:

Piaggio P.32
Macchi MC.91 and MC.97
Breda “82”
Fiat BR.20 & BGA
Savoia Marchetti lS.79B
Caproni Ca.135
Cant il Z.1011

Saludos
MC72

Source:
L’aeronautica Italiana: una Storia del Novecento By Paolo Ferrari
Un bombardiere per la Regia by Andrea Curami AEROFAN N1 1982
Un bombardiere normale per la “Regia” by Nico Sgarlato AEREI N5 1998

 

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
Tenders for the industry to the Competition of "Fast" Terrestrial Bomber , were varied as were the varied technical and design solutions, specially in propulsion plant, where each firm proposed its own engines, such as Fiat BR20 with Fiat engines A80 RC41 or Piaggio P.32 with Isotta Fraschini Asso XI engines of their Holding.
The design solutions were in many cases mixtures of old techniques with new ones, but not with very good results.

h55fzblip8.jpg

Although different models:
Macchi and MC.91 MC.97, CRDA Cannot Z.1011, P.32 Piaggio, Fiat BR.20, CMAS BGA, Savoia Marchetti S.79B, and Breda, Caproni Ca.135 82
Come close to the specification and in some cases exceed, their luck in the competition was different in each case in particular proved to be underpowered with their engines, a problem that would be repeated many times over by forwarded up to the conflict

3wvqpvun0e.jpg


The tables on display combine some general features of these machines and are compared with a contemporary German medium bomber like Heinkel He.111 E3 (specifically of those years) for having a better overall assessment regardless of the intrinsic qualities of each aircraft (The data of Macchi M .91 are those of the project, they have not built any prototype)

Saludos
MC72
 

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
Power for Bombers
In the time, when was called the competition for a "fast" bomber, the big picture of the italian engine industry, was of the towing industry, with the engineering coming from other countries of engine available licensed productions from Britain, France and the United States; Certainly, cheaper solution than the expensive investment in research, but stable and independent.
Thus the oscillation of Italian foreign policy, it also implied a change in technological influences, starting with an initial association with London, which came out the licenses for the Piaggio P. VII and Alfa Romeo 126 (respectively Bristol "Jupiter" and " Pegasus "), after 1932 with a cooling relations with London are changed for a political rapprochement with Paris giving rise to the production of more of the Gnome Rhone 14N licensed by Isotta Fraschini but then continued as the Piaggio Piaggio P. XI and its various derivatives.
Between 1933 and 1934 there were also great approaches with the American industry, and Fiat concluded agreements for the licensed production of excellent and advanced Pratt & Whitney "Twin Wasp" and "Hornet" known locally as the Fiat A.74 RC18-and Fiat A.80 RC41-respectively.
These oscillations of imported technology for aircraft engines depended of Italian foreign policy, and produce intermittent cuts in technical assistance, And if you add to this that all these engines were categorized as "Ready for Export" means good technology, but not of strategic sensitivity, you can understand why Italian propulsion plants have never been to the technology summit, one or two steps back of future opponents.

nnvgskh6q0.jpg


So for the bombers at the time were "available", the English radial engines of the first generation of a Bristol "Jupiter" and "Pegasus" and even the latest Pratt & Whitney and Gnome Rhone double star, as well as the Linear Isotta Fraschini Asso XI ;.............. But even in the national context the availability of each other engine was intimately held by their respective economic groups (Ex. Fiat Motors”only for " Fiat and CMAS Aircrafts) Just directly to the detriment of the objective of the" Best Product "as possible.
 

theponja

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
428
Reaction score
14
Wow. Very interesting post MC72. But, Seems several of bombers where build, Which was the result of competition?
And the more obscure ones are the Breda 82 ( just a few pictures ) and the macchi c.91, I was unable to find any picture online.
Saludos
Luis
 

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
Breda 82

In response to the competition held by the Italian Air Ministry in 1934 for a"Fast" medium bomber , Breda developed the "82" consisting of a medium bomber, very compact with some vague resemblance to the Lockheed Hudson (who, as this would have a the civilian version), The constructive solution was new for the Italian industry, that is all-metal solution, and low wing position, powered by two engines Fiat A.80 RC 41 double radial of 1000 Hp, allowed him remarkable performance as a speed of 430 km / h and an amazing ability to reach great altitudes of 9000 meters!

curw1oihsb.jpg



The development, however, was slow and not without difficulties, his engine gave a long hard time in its development, and was presented late to the Air Show in Milan in 1937, but now the military thought the general solution was a little dated, even if they were ready to order a first group, if they completed flight tests; Continuous troubles with the engines did that test flight began only in 1939, but when the competition was decided on behalf of the Fiat Br.20 "Cicogna"
Alredy Royal Air Force's new guidelines on 1939 was now-oriented for three-engine medium bombers solutions.

Breda 82 general characteristics, are:

Engines: 2 x double star Fiat A.80 Radial RC.41 of 1000 H / w
Length: 14.00 m
Height: 3.90 m aprox.
Wingspan: 21.00 m
Wing area: 66.00 m2
Empty weight: 6840 kg
Total weight: 1040 kg
Payload: 3200 kg
Maximum speed: 430 km / h (4000 m)
Ascent to 4000 m: 12'14 "min.
Ascent to 5000 m: 15'15 "min.
Tangency practice: 9500 m
Range: N / A km
Armament: 1000 kg bombs, machine guns 3 x 7.7 mm Breda-SAFAT
Crew: 4-5 men

Saludos
MC72
 

Attachments

  • Breda Ba 82 try.jpg
    Breda Ba 82 try.jpg
    85.9 KB · Views: 187
  • ba82-1.jpg
    ba82-1.jpg
    28.4 KB · Views: 151
  • ba82-4.jpg
    ba82-4.jpg
    19.1 KB · Views: 99

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
Theponja un gran saludo!

Efectivamente el tema es muy entretenidosobre estos aviones y es interesante analizar las distintas soluciones e inconvenientes tenidos por los concursantes, en esos tiempos, aprovecho de postear el Ba.82 que parece es de tu inmediato interes, ya estoy preparando otros modelos del concurso para ir integrandolos en el topic

Saludos
MC72
 

archipeppe

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
1,749
Reaction score
452
Again many thanks for such beautiful piece of artwork about this obscure Italian project!!

Muchas gracias amigo... ;)
 

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
archipeppe said:
Again many thanks for such beautiful piece of artwork about this obscure Italian project!!

Muchas gracias amigo... ;)

Niente Archipeppe, per caritá!! è un gran piacere di avere una passione in comune, con vecchi e dimenticati aerei che ci piace tanto rispolverare, e anche i lavori sono interessantissimi, e so bene che bisogna fare un gran lavoro previo per trovare tutto il materiale possibile prima di far fronte a un trittico ...tua specialità

tanti Saluti ;)
MC72
 

archipeppe

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
1,749
Reaction score
452
MC72 said:
Niente Archipeppe, per caritá!! è un gran piacere di avere una passione in comune, con vecchi e dimenticati aerei che ci piace tanto rispolverare, e anche i lavori sono interessantissimi, e so bene che bisogna fare un gran lavoro previo per trovare tutto il materiale possibile prima di far fronte a un trittico ...tua specialità

tanti Saluti ;)
MC72

Grazie MC72, ad ognuno la sua specialità i tuoi profili sono davvero belli senza contare gli ottimi grafici comparativi.

Thanks MC72, everyone is specialized in something and your aircraft profiles are very cutes without counting the very effective comparative graphics.
 

airman

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
1,233
Reaction score
93
Website
zeef.com
interesting thread
argomento interessante

the beauty of old projects have no price !
La bellezza dei vecchi progetti non ha prezzo ! :)
 

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
Caproni Ca.135

The first aircraft ready for the competition for a medium bomber, flew as early as April 1, 1935, a projected by the engineer Cesare Pallavicini; The C.135 was equipped with two motors Isotta-Fraschini Asso XI RC de 835hp. The model has attracted the interest of the Peruvian government, which acquired six bombers, used in the Peruvian-Ecuadorian War of 1941-42, where participated in several bombing missions, was tried by the Japanese authorities, but the main foreign operator (model) was Hungary, which came to have a hundred aircraft equipped with Manfred Weiss WM K-14 engines (licensed Gnome-Rhone 14K Mistral-Major) in turn, the Royal Air Force, has just bought 32 Caproni units, equipping 7 of them with Fiat A.80 RC41 to join the Corpo Legionario Italiano in the Spanish Civil War, but their transfer flight was compromised from the beginning with many problems, in the fateful flight to the Balearic Islands of the seven depart from Alghero only two arrived, others two returned to base due to mechanical problems and the others rushed into the Mediterranean with the lost of all the crew (15 men), even though this tragedy is not attributable to Ca.135, results weigh heavily in his career in the Regia Aeronautica.
zaofqag0ak.jpg


The general characteristics of Ca.135, are:

Engines: 2 Asso XI Spinto 900 hp
Length: 14.50 m
Height: 3.50 m
Wingspan: 18.96 m
Wing area: 61.50 m2
Empty weight: 5606 kg
Total weight: 8841 kg
Payload: 2875 kg
Maximum speed: 400 km / h (4000 m)
Ascent to 4000 m: 12'06 "min.
Ascent to 5000 m: 16'51 "min.
Ceiling: 7250 m
Range: 1200 km
Armament: 1600 kg bombs, 3x machine guns 12.7 mm Breda-SAFAT
Crew: 5 men

Saludos
MC72
 

Attachments

  • Ca 135 Triptico copia.jpg
    Ca 135 Triptico copia.jpg
    94.1 KB · Views: 201
  • Ca 135 varianti .jpg
    Ca 135 varianti .jpg
    89.4 KB · Views: 272
  • Ca135_2.jpg
    Ca135_2.jpg
    142.1 KB · Views: 120
  • Ca135_8.jpg
    Ca135_8.jpg
    80.3 KB · Views: 114

royabulgaf

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
501
Reaction score
79
Man, this is all that was wrong with the Regia Aeronautica in a nutshell. Three of these bombers, the Cant Z1007, S.79, and BR.20 get middling production orders, just enough to keep the companies limping along. Two others get just enough orders to lose money on a production variant. Far too many companies chasing just enough orders to keep their doors open, the RA is stuck with additional types of aircraft, (a squadron or so of Ca. 135s, a squadron of P.32s) and efforts are duplicated, even in-house as Italy seems to have that British problem of a given corporation having competing brands.
 

theponja

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
428
Reaction score
14
MC72 muchas gracias. Realmente el topico es interesante y como siempre a mi me interesan los menos conocidos.
Los perfiles son grandiosos.
Saludos
Luis

Thanks a lot for the pictures. They're great.
Luis
 

airman

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
1,233
Reaction score
93
Website
zeef.com
Caproni 135 was surely an interesting airplane in particular its variant Caproni 169!
 

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
airman said:
Caproni 135 was surely an interesting airplane in particular its variant Caproni 169!

The last of the "135" (MM 20922) was called Ca.169, it appear in the spring of 1943, powered by two engine Piaggio P.XII RC.35 of 1500 Hp, after changed for Alfa Romeo 135 RC.32 of 1400 Hp each. with more than a 70% extra power, showed immediately bright features, with 485 Km/h.

But too late, and only one.

Saludos
MC72
 

Attachments

  • Ca169.jpg
    Ca169.jpg
    58 KB · Views: 88

Maveric

Fight for yor Right!
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
1,987
Reaction score
352
...
 

Attachments

  • Caproni Ca-169.jpg
    Caproni Ca-169.jpg
    337.2 KB · Views: 963
  • Caproni Ca-169-.jpg
    Caproni Ca-169-.jpg
    294.9 KB · Views: 963

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
Good post Maveric with these 3 view of the Caproni Ca.169, the last of the Ca.135 saga
Saludos
MC72
 

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
CMASA BGA
A“Hampden” for the Regia Aeronautica
aaul8zotad.jpg

The Fiat Group for increase his chances in the competition, presented also the BGA of its subsidiary CMASA (Costruzioni Meccaniche Aeronautiche SA) of Pisa.
The aircraft was all-metal, heavily influenced in its architecture to the contemporary Hampdem Handley Page, with his briefcase type fuselage as well as the distribution of positions of the crew, was designed by 'Mr. Manlio Stiavelli and flown for the first time with the pilot Giovanni de Briganti in the year 1936.
The BGA (Bombardiere a Grande Autonomia /Great Range Bomber) was powered with a new engine Fiat A.80 RC.41, licensed version of the American Pratt & Whitney "Hornet", then, a engine ok with the times and used in the beghinnin onli exclusively for the Fiat group, and used by both the CMASA as the BGA and Fiat BR.20 "Cicogna" ("Stork")
The CMASA BGA (MM295) was brought to Guidonia for Evaluation April 19, 1938, but did not continue.

The general characteristics of the CMAS BGA are:

Engines: 2 x Fiat A.80 Radial RC.41 of 1000 H / w each
Length: 15.73 m
Height: 4.85 m
Wingspan: 21.46 m
Wing area: 74.13 m2
Empty weight: 6100 kg
Total weight: 9380 kg
Payload: 3280 kg
Maximum speed: 405 km / h (4000 m)
Tangency practice: 8500 m
Range: 2000 km
Armament: 1600 kg (including the 1000-kg bombs) and Machine Gun 3x SAFAT / Scotti 7.7 mm in the front turret, dorsal and ventral.
Crew: 4 men

Saludos
MC72
 

Attachments

  • CMASA BGA Triptico.jpg
    CMASA BGA Triptico.jpg
    79.3 KB · Views: 745
  • Cmasa BGA Foto.jpg
    Cmasa BGA Foto.jpg
    43.5 KB · Views: 692

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
The BGA front profile is very similar to the British Handley Page Hampden bomber
 

Attachments

  • BGA e HAMPDEN.jpg
    BGA e HAMPDEN.jpg
    31.7 KB · Views: 122

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
Savoia Marchetti S.M.79B

r902sk18af.jpg


In 1934 for the race McRobertson (Great Britain-Australia)Ing. Alessandro Marchetti proposed a high-speed version of SM81 a three engines, with retractable landing gear, new aerodynamics and engines, capable of carrying 8 passengers, but also a potential bomber, so was born the SM79P The serial I-MAGO, came late to the race, but immediately showed great gifts fast acceleration and load, Was commissioned by Ala Littoria SM79T 11 (Oceanic) for its Atlantic routes; So for the competition for Fast Middle Bomber of 1934 for the Regia, it was decided to redesign the cell to transform it into the SM79 twin-engine bomber, for its realization is amply windowed redraws the forward section to accommodate the position for the bomber / gunner, for visual, the pilot stands by his original position and arises in this way the characteristic "hump" on the fuselage, which also houses the dorsal gunner, also appears the "gondola" for the ventral gunner. More powerful radial engines like the Fiat A.80 or Gnome Rhone K.14.

n29d1kg94v.jpg

Prototype white black

The evaluation was positive in the different tests, and in the competition was among the finalists, but even if he does not win the contract for the Regia Aeronautica, obtained it the green light for its export.
After participating in the Regia Contest ,the Savoia Marchetti SM79B was widely performed in many foreign air forces, including, Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, China, Czechoslovakia, Finland, Iraq, Romania, Russia, Spain, Turkey and Yugoslavia.



The Romanian Air Force, immediately ordered 24 engines combined with Gnome Rhome Mistral Major K.14, which disengaged with some success and the time to think about the expansion of the Romanian Air Force demanded a further batch of 24 but this SM79B was of providing with a more powerful and reliable engine Junkers Jumo 211Da of 1220 hp 12-cylinder in-line and cooled with liquid. At the same time the Romanian Aviation Industry of Bucharest, buy the licensed production of SM.79B, going to call SM79JR (Junkers Romanian). Without gondola and new tail in the new design.
The performance of SM79JR had a top speed of 445 km / h at 5000 m (faster than any "Sparviero"! Except for the SM79-III) ascends up to 3050 m in 8 minutes and 40 seconds. (More than two minutes better of the SM.79B/A80) with a maximum of 7400 m tangency, and weights 7194 kg and vacuum 10790 kg load, the bomber transformed the first election to send to the Russian front, while the front SM 79B were bound to tasks of transport.
Iraq, ordered 4 SM.79B/A.80 SM.79B more one of the prototypes at that time the SM.79B/A.80 in the Middle East was the most advanced aircraft in service, and the revolt in this country against British forces, gave quite a hard time, however, the revolt was finally suppressed by Great Britain and all the iraqui SM.79B were destroyed.
In South America the SM.79B participated in the1937 Contest for a new bomber for the Argentine Army, is the occasion was comented that the SM79B have a lack of maneuverability; The Savoia Marchetti Pilot Just jump on the aircraft and took her to flight, running inmmediatamente 4 Loops! The SM.79B won. But after loggistic considerations, for the beginning of war in Europe, finally made the Argentine government ordered 35 Martin-135W bombers.


Finally taking advantage that this model has the peculiarity of having both versions as the three-engine twin-engine is interesting to compare the interior of these machines, where the twin has a more rational inner system, note the sacrifices incurred by the three-engine SM.79 with a ventral gondola "crowded", divided by the gunner / bombardier, gunner with a dorsal hump and a second machine gun Breda-Safat of 12.7 m in the fixed position of the hunt.


The general characteristics of S.M. 79B/A.80 are:

Engines: 2 x Fiat A.80 Radial RC.41 of 1000 Hp each
Length: 16.20 m
Height: 4.10 m
Wingspan: 21.20 m
Wing area: 60.30 m2
Curb weight: 6200 kg
Total weight: 9800 kg
Payload: 3600 kg
Maximum speed: 425 km / h (3750 m)
Ascent to 4000 m: 14'20 "min.
Tangency practice: 7700 m
Range: 2000 km
Armament: 1200 kg bombs
3 x 12.7 mm machine guns SAFAT, 1 x SAFAT from 7.7 in the lateral
Crew: 5 men

Source
Dimensione Cielo Bombardieri-4 di Ed. Bizzarri-Roma
Profile No. 89 Profile Publications Ltd,Illustrated Encyclopedia of Aircraft No. 80,Aerei 10/1987Aerofan 1 / 82Storia dell’Aviazione Ed. Fabbri
 

Attachments

  • Sm79B 007 R.jpg
    Sm79B 007 R.jpg
    39.4 KB · Views: 174
  • Compared Sections .jpg
    Compared Sections .jpg
    105.4 KB · Views: 213
  • SM79 B Triptico .jpg
    SM79 B Triptico .jpg
    90.7 KB · Views: 249
  • SM79 B Export Counties fine.jpg
    SM79 B Export Counties fine.jpg
    140.3 KB · Views: 251

theponja

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
428
Reaction score
14
Fantastic profiles and very good information. Thanks MC72!! :) :)

I didn't know about the SM.79 wining the competition for the Argentina Army.

Saludos
Luis
 

Pepe Rezende

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
96
Reaction score
3
MC72 said:
After participating in the Regia Contest ,the Savoia Marchetti SM79B was widely performed in many foreign air forces, including, Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, China, Czechoslovakia, Finland, Iraq, Romania, Russia, Spain, Turkey and Yugoslavia.

This is a big mistake! The Brazilian Sparviero were SM.79C from the Sorci Verdi Record Team. Three were used as transports and unarmed patrol plane.

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/314/26/0/1
 

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
Pepe Rezende said:
MC72 said:
After participating in the Regia Contest ,the Savoia Marchetti SM79B was widely performed in many foreign air forces, including, Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, China, Czechoslovakia, Finland, Iraq, Romania, Russia, Spain, Turkey and Yugoslavia.

This is a big mistake! The Brazilian Sparviero were SM.79C from the Sorci Verdi Record Team. Three were used as transports and unarmed patrol plane.

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/314/26/0/1

Well, really they have both versions
Before the war they bought the SM.79B (twin engine)
during wartime they received some SM.79T (three engine)

Brazil and Iraq
Twin-engined versions were sold to Brazil (three with 694 kW/930 hp Alfa Romeo 128 RC.18 engines) and Iraq (four with 768 kW/1,030 hp Fiat A.80 RC.14 engines)."


Source Wikipedia
Profile No. 89 Profile Publications Ltd

Saludos
MC72
 

Pepe Rezende

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
96
Reaction score
3
Don't matter what Wikipedia says...

it's wrong. I'm Janes Defence Weekly Brazil correspondent and I worked since 1984 with defence affairs. I have the complete Army and Naval Aviations inventory and none has the twin engined version of the SM.79. I also have the complete Forca Aerea Brasileira inventory. The FAB was founded joining Army and Naval Aviation inventory, bases and personel. What I'm saying is official: we only operated THREE SM.79T, all three engined unarmed planes from the Sorci Verdi. They received the serials K-420, K-421 and K-422 and served until 1943. At the beginning of WW2 the most powerfull Forca Aerea Brasileira bomber was the Vultee V-11GB2, a single engined plane.

I think we must correct some Italian books and the Wikipedia.

Cheers

Pepe
 

Nico

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
266
Reaction score
31
...I agree with Pepe,
according to my information, on February 22 1938 the I-BRUN, an S.79T of the Sorci Verdi (Green Mices) team was donated to the Brasialian government that bought the other two aircraft. For the definitive radiation of the last S.79T I have the date of October 25 1944.
In fact there wa a fourth Sparviero, S.79K MM.21403, used by LATI Italian airline company as spare source for other aircraft (S.83, I suppose).
Argentina neither had the twin-engined S.79B. There was an aircraft, serialled I-AYRE, engaged on an eight-month promotional tour in Latin America, and intended for sale to the Benos Aires govt but it was never bought


Nico
 

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
Re: Don't matter what Wikipedia says...

Pepe Rezende said:
it's wrong. I'm Janes Defence Weekly Brazil correspondent and I worked since 1984 with defence affairs. I have the complete Army and Naval Aviations inventory and none has the twin engined version of the SM.79. I also have the complete Forca Aerea Brasileira inventory. The FAB was founded joining Army and Naval Aviation inventory, bases and personel. What I'm saying is official: we only operated THREE SM.79T, all three engined unarmed planes from the Sorci Verdi. They received the serials K-420, K-421 and K-422 and served until 1943. At the beginning of WW2 the most powerfull Forca Aerea Brasileira bomber was the Vultee V-11GB2, a single engined plane.

I think we must correct some Italian books and the Wikipedia.

Cheers

Pepe
Well the sources of wikipedia can be but i chek this information with a mix of sources like Profile No. 89 of 1966 by Giorgio Apostolo, who is a very reliable historian.
Pepe, in any case it seems me, your sources are more official and reliable.

As regards to Nico, the s S79B in the contest for new medium bomber for the Argentinian Army, it won competition, the rest was politic deals.

I attach a set of pages of Profile Nº89 of 1966

Saludos
MC72
 

Attachments

  • SM79B.jpg
    SM79B.jpg
    382.9 KB · Views: 138

Pepe Rezende

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
96
Reaction score
3
Unhappily for us, we have no SM.79B at WW2 beginning. It could be very usefull in patrol duties at the Atlantic...

Cheers

Pepe
 

dan_inbox

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2006
Messages
854
Reaction score
387
When did Italy patrol "the Atlantic" ?
The Med of course, and even the Red or Indian, but I can't remember when did Italy get access to the Atlantic.
 

Hawker Nut

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Messages
37
Reaction score
4
Dan_inbox,
Pepe was talking from Brazil's standpoint. He meant that a few SM.79B could have been useful to patrol that country huge Atlantic coastline.

HN
 

dan_inbox

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2006
Messages
854
Reaction score
387
My mistake, then. Of course for Brazil it makes sense.
Thanks for the explanation.
 

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
Macchi MC.91

Macchi proposed the MC.91 medium Bomber, with a vague resemblance to the American twin-engine bomber B-10 Martin, who was integrating the USAAC squadrons, just in 1934. Unlike the all-metal B-10, the MC.91 was completely of wood; Curiously the choice / availability of the engine fell on the Piaggio P. IX RC40, a reworking of the Bristol "Jupiter", with two-speed compressor, which increased the power up to 630 Hp; But even so little power, so, the engineer Mario Castoldi had to resolve a wood structure as light as possible and provide the cell with a more aerodynamic streamlined as possible (in my opinion, of all the projects presented, the MC.91 definitely had the best aerodynamics) but to achieve this level of refinement, had propose a formula with a small bomb bay, and the rest of the payload, hung externally under the fuselage. In exchange the solution for defensive positions was a truly nightmare, especially for those front and back, which were bulky as primitive completely ruining the aerodynamics of the cell, the position of defensive front also greatly impeded the pilot vision, making a "complicated" the Landing and take-off ... finally ... the commission rejected the project of Macchi MC.91

3pdcqjocfq.jpg


The general characteristics of MC.91 are (AEROFAN 1 / 82):

Engines: 2 x radial Piaggio P. IX RC 40 of 630 H / p each
Length: 15.85 m
Height: 4.82 m
Wingspan: 20.00 m
Wing area: 66.00 m2
Empty weight: 3666 kg
Total weight: 6425 kg
Payload: 2759 kg
Maximum speed: 374 km / h (4000 m)
Minimum speed: N / A km / h
Ascent to 5000 m: 16.25 min.
Tangency practice: 8000 m
Range: 2000 km
Armament: 1 200 kg bombs (in the bomb bay, as external loads)
Machine guns 2x SAFAT / Scotti 7.7 mm in the turret front, turret SAFAT 12.7 mm 12.7 mm SAFAT dorsal ventral position in
Crew: 4 men

Macchi MC.97
Macchi presented a reworking of his bomber, from which came out the MC.97 a heavier version of the first "MC.91", with an enlarged fuselage to accommodate all the bomb load inside the fuselage; A telescopic tower was added in the ventral position, the rudder was enlarged and increased , I do not know the choice of the Poiwer plant maybe a double radial; The problem of the visibility for the pilot, and it seems that even this latest proposals for a Macchi bomber proved unsatisfactory and dated for the "Regia" commission.
On MC.97 there is little material and no other information is known.

Saludos
MC72

Source Aerofan 1/82
 

Attachments

  • Macchi MC91 sec.jpg
    Macchi MC91 sec.jpg
    70.4 KB · Views: 536
  • MC91 Triptico copia.jpg
    MC91 Triptico copia.jpg
    100.4 KB · Views: 558

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,564
Reaction score
2,968
Excellent! Thanks for sharing us.
 

theponja

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
428
Reaction score
14
MC72 said:
Macchi proposed the MC.91 medium Bomber, with a vague resemblance to the American twin-engine bomber B-10 Martin

"Vague" maybe but my first tought when I see the post was " A martin b-10 in Italian markings?"

Great work. Me estan dando ganas de hacer modelos italianos, con estos post ;)

Saludos
Luis
 

MC72

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
79
Reaction score
28
Great work. Me estan dando ganas de hacer modelos italianos, con estos post ;)

The Macchi would have been something bigger of Martin, also sends a possible camo of a MC.97 the colors of the Regia, compared with a Martin real size
Saludos
MC72
 

Attachments

  • Macchi MC97 y B10 Comp.jpg
    Macchi MC97 y B10 Comp.jpg
    72.8 KB · Views: 444

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
27,303
Reaction score
4,070
Hi,


here is the early drawing to Caproni Ca.135.
 

Attachments

  • Ca.135.JPG
    Ca.135.JPG
    25.4 KB · Views: 190

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,564
Reaction score
2,968
Hi! MC.91 and MC.97.

http://alternathistory.com/italyanskie-bumazhnye-proekty-srednie-bombardirovshchiki-kastoldi
 

Attachments

  • mc-91-00-680x372.jpg
    mc-91-00-680x372.jpg
    35 KB · Views: 123

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,564
Reaction score
2,968
Hi! Cant Z.1011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANT_Z.1011
"The Z.1011 made its first flight on 2 March 1936 powered by 710 kW (950 hp) Gnome-Rhône Mistral Major RC radial engines, but these were soon replaced with 610 kW (820 hp) V-12 Isotta-Fraschini Asso XI.RCs.[3] Five Z.1011 prototypes were built before the Regia Aeronautica chose to order the three-engined Z.1007. After that decision the Z.1011 was used as a transport."

http://alternathistory.com/srednii-bombardirovshchik-cant-z1011-italiya
Z. 1011
Wingspan : 25.00m, Length : 17.50 m, Height : 5.98 m, Wing area : 80.00m ²,
Empty weight : 6100kg, normal takeoff weight : 9600kg, lifting capacity : 3500kg
Powerplant Isotta-Fraschini Asso XI RC 40.
power : 2 × 840HP
total power : 1680HP
maximum speed at altitude of 4500 m :370 km/h
Cruising speed : 310-326km/h
Range, 2000km
Time to 4000 m : 19'00 "
Service ceiling : 8000m
Crew : 5
Armament
bomb load ; 1000kg
4 × 7.7mm (2 turrets 2 × 7.7 SAFAT/Scotti)
 

Attachments

  • 111027-13.jpg
    111027-13.jpg
    142.8 KB · Views: 133
  • Cant_Z_1007_prototype and Z.1011.jpg
    Cant_Z_1007_prototype and Z.1011.jpg
    73.3 KB · Views: 77
  • z_1011-06-640x266.jpg
    z_1011-06-640x266.jpg
    24.1 KB · Views: 74
  • z_1011-03-640x588.jpg
    z_1011-03-640x588.jpg
    47.2 KB · Views: 95
  • CANT Z.1011.jpg
    CANT Z.1011.jpg
    79.5 KB · Views: 78

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,564
Reaction score
2,968
Hi! Breda Ba.82.

http://aviarmor.net/aww2/_photo_exp_a/_italy/Breda%20Ba.82/

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/ba82.html

Only one prototype was completed in 1937, exhibited at the air show in Milan before the first flight.
Propaganda was made that her maximum speed was 450 km/h (at 9500 m payload (including fuel) 3,400 kg) which exceeded high performance Bristol Blenheim at the day.
However Ba.82 prototype suffered many problems from the first flight.
Because of engine malfunction, maximum speed of clean condition was only 425 km/h, stability was poor and speed decrease rate under loading condition exceeded allowable limit as a bomber.
 

Attachments

  • 173-2.jpg
    173-2.jpg
    61.8 KB · Views: 69
  • ba82_c2.jpg
    ba82_c2.jpg
    87.5 KB · Views: 132
  • ba82_c3.jpg
    ba82_c3.jpg
    96.1 KB · Views: 145

blackkite

Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
7,564
Reaction score
2,968
Maveric said:
The Ba.82 Airliner was a beauty!!! :-*
Ba.82 is very dauntless and attractive as you say. However, I feel scarce in inherent stability same as bomber type.
 
Top