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Competitors to the Gripen?

zen

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To get back to Lavi and NoviAvion.
I don't think both Lavi and NoviAvion could have gone into production anyway.
Not because they couldn't design it, but because their respective country aviation industry , let alone aero engine industry, wasn't developed enough . So the respective "godfathers" planes makers, US for Lavi and France for NoviAvion, helped for a while, selling some expertise up to prototypes stage in case of Lavi, but when the point of getting to production came, then strategic thinking starts :
"Hey we are helping building a competitor here, even if maybe not on this product, but we are helping building a possible competitor industry !"
And that's were it stops.
The difference with Gripen, is that Saab was already there, building jets planes for decades already. So sweden could do it alone, the airframe at least.
I think for Yugoslavia to have gone ahead, it need firstly to not to have broken up, and secondly to find another supplier for key components.

Irony is after the collapse of the USSR, Russian suppliers could have been accessed and they had no direct Mig21 successor. Only Mig29s and Su27s.

For Israel, they needed to license their design to a US firm. As a Skyhawk/Starfighter successor and a rival to the F16.
 

galgot

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To get back to Lavi and NoviAvion.
I don't think both Lavi and NoviAvion could have gone into production anyway.
Not because they couldn't design it, but because their respective country aviation industry , let alone aero engine industry, wasn't developed enough . So the respective "godfathers" planes makers, US for Lavi and France for NoviAvion, helped for a while, selling some expertise up to prototypes stage in case of Lavi, but when the point of getting to production came, then strategic thinking starts :
"Hey we are helping building a competitor here, even if maybe not on this product, but we are helping building a possible competitor industry !"
And that's were it stops.
The difference with Gripen, is that Saab was already there, building jets planes for decades already. So sweden could do it alone, the airframe at least.
I think for Yugoslavia to have gone ahead, it need firstly to not to have broken up, and secondly to find another supplier for key components.

Irony is after the collapse of the USSR, Russian suppliers could have been accessed and they had no direct Mig21 successor. Only Mig29s and Su27s.

For Israel, they needed to license their design to a US firm. As a Skyhawk/Starfighter successor and a rival to the F16.
True, for Yugoslavia, it was more the broke up of the country than the lack of aero industry there.
 
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Archibald

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The timing for a RN CATOBAR vs Typhoon was all wrong.
- the Invincible class were entering service (Illustrious 1983 ?)
- the SHAR mk.1 had worked extremely well in the Falklands
- the SHAR mk.2 with the Blue Vixen / AMRAAM (terrific combination) was to enter service soon.

As of 1985 - no chance for British Rafale-M, unfortunately.

Now the real missed opportunity was in the 2000's, CVF.
Charles de Gaulle decided the carriers would be different
F-35 decided RN Rafale M wouldn't happen (plus CATOBAR refusal).

I have little love for Sarkozy (booh !) but his decision not to buy a Q.E or a Q.E derivative as a MN second carrier, in 2008-2011, was the correct one.
- Q.E was no longer CATOBAR
- even CATOBAR, being non nuclear and 100% different from CdG would have make it troublesome for the French Navy.

Last chance for joint RN - MN carriers was PH-75 / Invincible merge-up in the 70's.

Rafale-M for the RN / FAA, along RAF Typhoon and instead of F-35, is technically possible, but politically impossible because
a) special relationship
b) F-35 steamroller
c) CATOBAR Q.E difficult decision
d) bitter feelings remaining over the 1985 split

Sorry for the off topic drift !
 

galgot

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I think for Yugoslavia to have gone ahead, it need firstly to not to have broken up, and secondly to find another supplier for key components.

Irony is after the collapse of the USSR, Russian suppliers could have been accessed and they had no direct Mig21 successor. Only Mig29s and Su27s.

For Israel, they needed to license their design to a US firm. As a Skyhawk/Starfighter successor and a rival to the F16.
Indeed, they could have gone for a cooperation on this :
Although, the end of NoviAvion correspond also to the end of USSR , so I don't think it would have gone very far anyway, given the shape of USSR/Russia at the time.
It took time for them to recover. And even now are still living a lot on stuff developed during Soviet era.
Plus had it started earlier, Soviets weren't especially keen in helping others develop possible competitors, just like US and Fr.

...

Rafale-M for the RN / FAA, along RAF Typhoon and instead of F-35, is technically possible, but politically impossible because
a) special relationship
b) F-35 steamroller
c) CATOBAR Q.E difficult decision
d) bitter feelings remaining over the 1985 split

Sorry for the off topic drift !
If I may , I would add :
e) "buying the Typhoon rival ? ARE YOU MAD ?"
 

Archibald

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As if the F-35 wasn't a Typhoon rival, too ?

...but Special Relationship, so, in the words of Philip J. Fry "Shut up, and take my money".
 

zen

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I think a host of countries did various upgrades and life extensions to their Mig21 fleets.
So had the option existed for a reasonably priced alternative offering a much longer life/relevance. Then this would have sold.
Sweden however limited themselves not just with a US suppliers veto, but their domestic politics made export to certain countries a virtual impossibility.
 

Archibald

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Romania did a pretty outstanding upgrade of the MiG-21.
 
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red admiral

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Could someone effectively do a JL-9 or JF-17 back in the 80/90s? Almost definitely the Soviets if they didn't run out of money. I think that's the most likely Gripen competitor - which is partly what we've seen anyway. Countries that have previously bought western aircraft buying either second hand, or eastern aircraft. But there doesn't look to be large numbers or value in this sector.
 

Archibald

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Could someone effectively do a JL-9 or JF-17 back in the 80/90s? Almost definitely the Soviets if they didn't run out of money. I think that's the most likely Gripen competitor - which is partly what we've seen anyway. Countries that have previously bought western aircraft buying either second hand, or eastern aircraft. But there doesn't look to be large numbers or value in this sector.
For a start, a Yak-41 "Freestyle" (geez, those NATO codenames !) without the lift jets. Keep the moving exhaust for manoeuverability and STOL.
 

zen

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I did rather like the Su.32 concept. Single large engine, blended wing body, cranked arrow delta wing, canards.
Very much a sort of Soviet Viggen.
But without a Soviet or Russian order it was always going to remain just a brochure.
 

zen

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The RoAF MiG-21 received major upgrades during the past years to be in compliance with the NATO requirements. They include HOTAS system, multifunctional color display (MFCD), multifunctional display (MFD), Elop 921 HUD, DASH helmet, hybrid navigation system (HNS), radionavigation system (RNAV), IFF Plessey transponder, improved armament system, MMR radar, CHAFF and FLARE defence.
I seem to recall that Russia claims to have flown a Mig21 with the RD.33 engine.
Kopyo radar was the centerpiece of several upgrade packages.

So virtually a new aircraft bar the fuselage.

So I can see a state like Yugoslavia buying components to pile into a new airframe instead.

I also seem to recall that South Africa flew a RD.33 in a Mirage F1 as part of possible upgrades.
 

zen

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In fact expanding on this a moment.
We have Blue Vixen and later Vixen 500e (AESA) from the UK.

Griffo and Griffo-F from Italy
Kopyo from Russia
EL/M-2032 from Israel
GD-53 radar from Taiwan
AN/APG-67 from the US
AN/APG-69 from the US
 
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