An independent engine manufacturer

[zen]

This borders on the hypothetical, but I think it's suitably AH really.

What if there was another state with a modest but decent jet engine manufacturer?
A state less restrictive in sale to others.

One of the things that holds back a host of mid-sized states aircraft projects back, is access to suitable engines.
When looking at Lavi, Gripen, Novi Avion, Carver, Romanian efforts and others. They all suffer from either not having access to a decent engine or are so restricted by the supplier state's strictures. That the effort collapses or at best looses out in exports.
Even further back, the abortive Brandener E300, nearly turned Egypt into a engine producer. As did Sweden's effort.

Only France and the UK have successfully sustained a engine manufacturer, outside of the big two (USSR and USA, now three with China). Often at substantial domestic cost.

But what if there had been such a supplier?
Could it survive commercially in the market?
And how?

 

[riggerrob]

The challenge is finding a nation with substantial experience building turbo-superchargers during the 1940s. After all, jet engine centrifugal compressors were based upon superchargers developed during the 1930s and 1940s. They needed stable, high tensile strength alloys to handle the high-temperature loads inside turbines.

 

[Archibald]

This borders on the hypothetical, but I think it's suitably AH really.

What if there was another state with a modest but decent jet engine manufacturer?
A state less restrictive in sale to others.

One of the things that holds back a host of mid-sized states aircraft projects back, is access to suitable engines.
When looking at Lavi, Gripen, Novi Avion, Carver, Romanian efforts and others. They all suffer from either not having access to a decent engine or are so restricted by the supplier state's strictures. That the effort collapses or at best looses out in exports.
Even further back, the abortive Brandener E300, nearly turned Egypt into a engine producer. As did Sweden's effort.

Only France and the UK have successfully sustained a engine manufacturer, outside of the big two (USSR and USA, now three with China). Often at substantial domestic cost.

But what if there had been such a supplier?
Could it survive commercially in the market?
And how?

Canada had Orenda engines, too.

Best bet: Vichy France (think Dewoitine) or Nazi Germany (Tank) but jet engine engineers run away in 1946 and manage to mount an engine chop in, say, Argentina. For the Pulqui aircraft series.

Overall main issue with that idea is that, for obvious reason, "jet engine teams" were jealously guarded by the five big aerospace powerhouse already mentionned.

One example of how difficult it may be, relates to China. During the Vietnam war they shot down dozens of Ryan Firebee drones, with their J69 small and crude turbojets. These engine actually were Turboméca Marboré: the ones powering Fouga Magisters.
So after the USA got a legal licence, the Chinese took an illegal one... plain old reverse engineering.
Well, even if the J69 was a very small and primitive turbojet, they seemingly had very hard times reverse engineering it.

List of Chinese aircraft engines - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

WP-11, that's how they called it.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3frpHnfaycYJ:https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/wp11.htm+&cd=2&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr&client=firefox-b-d

In my TL where the Lockheed D-21B never happens, Ryan accelerate their work on the AQM-91 semi-stealth drone.
Its J97 engine was... a miniature J101/F404 ancestor. So Ryan put that J97 onto advanced Firebees to be flown to Lop Nur at 80 000 feet or above. And what should happen... happens. The Chinese shot down a number of these "advanced Firebees" and in the process, through the J97 gain access to General Electric very advanced "leaky turbojet" family.
I had never quite realized that J97, J101, F404/414, GE6, TF39, F101/110, CFM56 were all loosely related around GE "common core".

 

[zen]

The challenge is finding a nation with substantial experience building turbo-superchargers during the 1940s. After all, jet engine centrifugal compressors were based upon superchargers developed during the 1930s and 1940s. They needed stable, high tensile strength alloys to handle the high-temperature loads inside turbines.

So this suggests not just aero-engine manufacturing and design during the piston era, but logically a domestic automobile engine producer.
In essence, a car engine industry leads to a airplane engine industry....

 

[Archibald]

@zen I have to say I like your idea. As you say, a whole lot of LWF projects across the world in the 1970's / 1980's were ruined by the impossibility of getting a decent turbofan or even turbojet, free of export constraints.

Hence this scenario certainly has strong "aircraft porn" potential... and the country who will make such engine available will make itself rich.

Bottom line: a "non aligned jet engine". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement

 

[zen]

Sadly India didn't manage more than licensed BS Orpheus.
Even today the Kaveri has lost out to US for the Tejas.
Yugoslavia the AS Viper.
Romania's licensed Spey ended up as just parts manufacturing.

Italy ought to have achieved more, all things considered.

Germany....welll....
Post War Germany Managed licensing.

 

[Arjen]

There's MTU in Germany.

 

[lancer21]

Since this topic is mentioning Romania and Yugoslavia, the best thing they could have done is to team up together to build an engine, either copied or whatever, as long as it's half decent. A copy of the Spey or indeed anything they could get their hands on would have possibly saved their indigenous fighter programmes (and on that front they would also been best served by joining forces and build one design together, like they did with IAR-93/Orao)

China's troubles regarding engines are largely self-inflicted, the disruption caused by the GLP and especially the CR set them back 20-25 years. I see no reason why a properly focused, well led and determined communist China can't make their indigenous engines be acceptable if not the best in the world by the seventies (see the WS-6 project that after many years of design and testing was cancelled), powering quite advanced fighters like the J-9 etc.

India's engine situation is also self inflicted, this time by complacency, as you know they started making their own combat aircraft in the sixties (HF-24), and then they stopped for the next 25 years. If they were determined and focused they should have built a lot more indigenous aircraft by now, even if they would continued to import part of their combat aircraft fleet. India was interested in the E300 for the HF-24 but gave up when Egypt did. But if they would have persevered with the E300 they would have at least got a foothold towards building national engines, so perhaps this would have lead to an indian fighter powered by an indian engine in the eighties (an early LCA if you like, but i have read about various other indian combat aircraft proposals of the sixties/seventies/eighties)

 

[zen]

I don't think you need a huge state to achieve this. Arguably Yugoslavia or Sweden could have, with the right conditions.
Strictly Canada wasn't that populous at the time either and Orenda achieved a lot....and could have achieved more.

It looks like Sweden abandoned their own effort, because it wasn't keeping up with the sort of performance in their aircraft they wanted to achieve. Essentially not quite the right capability to have invested limited resources into and too expensive and too protracted to change direction. Hence licensing first Avon, then JT8D.

Canada essentially bet the farm on a very high performance engine, that lost it's only customer. Leaving them high and dry.
Had they produced a scaled version to replace the Avon, as in fact their own early interest in the RB.106 shows...then they could have made a killing re-engining Avon powered Aircraft.

Germany (post WWII) has never quite taken the plunge. Collaboration essentially allowed them access to others technologies. Possibly they never felt the risk worth it.

France it seems, had 2 reasonable teams. But Gabizo failed to achieve and SNECMA got stuck on Atar and had a terrible time trying to move on....to the near despair of Dassault.

UK very nearly collapsed it's own industry thanks to a series of chops and changes. Ultimately the last firm standing had to be rescued from the financially back breaking effort on the RB.211.

 

[riggerrob]

The challenge is finding a nation with substantial experience building turbo-superchargers during the 1940s. After all, jet engine centrifugal compressors were based upon superchargers developed during the 1930s and 1940s. They needed stable, high tensile strength alloys to handle the high-temperature loads inside turbines.

So this suggests not just aero-engine manufacturing and design during the piston era, but logically a domestic automobile engine producer.
In essence, a car engine industry leads to a airplane engine industry....

Good point!
Turbo-super-chargers for automotive and marine diesels require most of the same temperatures and pressures as aviation super-chargers. So automotive technology can inspire aviation engines.
The challenge is reducing weight for aviation use.

 

[Hood]

Brown, Boveri & Cie maybe if they could switch from locomotive to aircraft gas turbines?

The big problem is still that whoever builds these engines, they need a large enough home market to make production and R&D cost effective enough (ignoring political implications that non-aligned brings).

 

[zen]

The big problem is still that whoever builds these engines, they need a large enough home market to make production and R&D cost effective enough (ignoring political implications that non-aligned brings).

Strictly they need a market and a product to fit that market.
Sweden nearly got there, but the product wasn't good enough.
Canada got there on the first go, but got cut off at the knees on the second.
France and the UK nearly failed.

 

[starviking]

Brown, Boveri & Cie maybe if they could switch from locomotive to aircraft gas turbines?

The big problem is still that whoever builds these engines, they need a large enough home market to make production and R&D cost effective enough (ignoring political implications that non-aligned brings).

If the German Navy’s interest in Marine Olympus-powered destroyers comes to fruition, BBC could be gaining a good toehold in the marine turbine market, and perhaps aero engines look more possible.

”The first Marine Olympus was built in 1962 for the German Navy. In 1962, BSEL was contracted to provide the gas generator, and Brown Boveri was contracted to provide a two-stage long-life marine power turbine.“

 

[Archibald]

This borders on the hypothetical, but I think it's suitably AH really.

What if there was another state with a modest but decent jet engine manufacturer?
A state less restrictive in sale to others.

One of the things that holds back a host of mid-sized states aircraft projects back, is access to suitable engines.
When looking at Lavi, Gripen, Novi Avion, Carver, Romanian efforts and others. They all suffer from either not having access to a decent engine or are so restricted by the supplier state's strictures. That the effort collapses or at best looses out in exports.
Even further back, the abortive Brandener E300, nearly turned Egypt into a engine producer. As did Sweden's effort.

Only France and the UK have successfully sustained a engine manufacturer, outside of the big two (USSR and USA, now three with China). Often at substantial domestic cost.

But what if there had been such a supplier?
Could it survive commercially in the market?
And how?

Canada had Orenda engines, too.

Best bet: Vichy France (think Dewoitine) or Nazi Germany (Tank) but jet engine engineers run away in 1946 and manage to mount an engine chop in, say, Argentina. For the Pulqui aircraft series.

Overall main issue with that idea is that, for obvious reason, "jet engine teams" were jealously guarded by the five big aerospace powerhouse already mentionned.

One example of how difficult it may be, relates to China. During the Vietnam war they shot down dozens of Ryan Firebee drones, with their J69 small and crude turbojets. These engine actually were Turboméca Marboré: the ones powering Fouga Magisters.
So after the USA got a legal licence, the Chinese took an illegal one... plain old reverse engineering.
Well, even if the J69 was a very small and primitive turbojet, they seemingly had very hard times reverse engineering it.

List of Chinese aircraft engines - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

WP-11, that's how they called it.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3frpHnfaycYJ:https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/wp11.htm+&cd=2&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr&client=firefox-b-d

In my TL where the Lockheed D-21B never happens, Ryan accelerate their work on the AQM-91 semi-stealth drone.
Its J97 engine was... a miniature J101/F404 ancestor. So Ryan put that J97 onto advanced Firebees to be flown to Lop Nur at 80 000 feet or above. And what should happen... happens. The Chinese shot down a number of these "advanced Firebees" and in the process, through the J97 gain access to General Electric very advanced "leaky turbojet" family.
I had never quite realized that J97, J101, F404/414, GE6, TF39, F101/110, CFM56 were all loosely related around GE "common core".

Related to the above: I'm wondering whether in my TL China could export its J97 clone to the many countries in need of an engine - perhaps via Yugoslavia & Romania, also non-aligned communist countries...