The last two are very big for drones, the larger one of the two is actually larger than a F-16 and is roughly J-10 sized. It even uses the exact same engine as the J-20A/S, so they could probably supercruise. It's easily large enough for a full sized bay for 4-6 AAMs.
Sure, it's half the size but carries the same internal payload as a J-20 and has the same performance... This seems unlikely.

The last two "Unmanned air superiority aircraft" has large radomes and this one even has a EOTS and DAS system
What large radomes or DAS? There's definitely an IRST/EOTS placeholder bolted on but that's about it?
 
I'm not sure about the geometry of getting the nose gear through a hole the length of the nose gear door when the nose gear leg appears to be rather more than twice that length. There could be another door that opens transiently and then closes again, but there's not a huge amount of nose depth to play with (hence the teeny-tiny-tyres).View attachment 783566
This is just a crappy drawing, but could be like this:
1756964404327.png
 
Recent U.S. wargames revealed that less capable, but cheaper CCAs were more valuable than high end ones, reflected in the decision to move forward with Anduril and Atomics offerings over the more exquisite ones from the traditional aerospace giants. Have the Chinese come to a different conclusion? Their CCAs are massive gold-plated monsters. I wonder if we are at a point where we're losing in both quality AND quantity.
Not exacty, they just serve different purposes. For example, a light UCAV can't carry a heavy payload for destroying hardened objects - like bunkers, hardened ammo dumps, or bridges. So a heavy strike UCAV, capable of dropping ton-grade munitions is required. Such UCAV must be of relatively high performance to fulfill its mission - so it can't be very small or cheap. It is, hovewer, much cheaper than manned plane of same performance. And could be used more freely, without ensured survival considerations.
 
Sure, it's half the size but carries the same internal payload as a J-20 and has the same performance... This seems unlikely.


What large radomes or DAS? There's definitely an IRST/EOTS placeholder bolted on but that's about it?
The little bumps are DAS windows... There obviously is a radome. This plane is easily wide enough for 4 PL-16s. It also probably isn't a placeholder as J-20 have the same protective cover for EOTS on the ground.
 
If China's high-end CCAs end up being cheaper than America's cheap, junk ones—just look at what the Constellation-class frigates or the LCS program cost.
Not relevant comparison. China dominates the ship manufacturing industry and able to fall back on economy of scale while America ship manufacturing industry is barely alive thus its military ships are extremely costly. The same cannot be said for aerospace industry.
 
If China's high-end CCAs end up being cheaper than America's cheap, junk ones—just look at what the Constellation-class frigates or the LCS program cost.
Very possible. Remember reading a story on the U-2 vs the Global Hawk (can't find it now sorry). The Air Force relied extensively on the U-2 but it being almost half a century old at the programs conceptio and manned platformn, keeping it around seemed expensive and backwards, when a dedicated drone platform platform could do its job for the fraction of the price. No points for guessing what actually happened.

A bit of an aside - I believe the first rate nature of US defense contractors died with the Soviet Union - the mergers in the 90s to 2000s, were conducted in order to 'save money' - what ended up happening is reduced competition increased costs and stretched timelines, meanwhile these merged organizations grappled with sudden redundancies, causing huge political fights about who would carry the torch and who would get to be benchwarmers or let go. Incompatible organizational structures are cultures had to be integrated. The same thing happened with the technology.

It's that basically the US didn't have capable and motivated geopolitical enemies for about a quarter century after this happened, so we only found out about this when it was too late.
 
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China is in a position to cover the entire spectrum of military aviation roles with a wide range of platforms.
This means that for decades to come we can expect it to keep producing and operating several types of fourth-generation aircraft, alongside at least four types of manned stealth tactical fighters (and probably more, if a STOVL or dedicated strike aircraft enters service), plus a vast array of drones of different classes and weight categories.
No other country in the world will be able to match this, and the gap will only keep growing wider.
China can do this because of the efficiency of state planning, the preservation of key strategic assets in public ownership, and the predominance of state direction. These factors already give it an advantage in many areas and in the age of big data they will allow it to be even more effective in domains where progress has traditionally been driven by markets and competition. Btw, in the aerospace and defense sector, the rapid rise in Chinese living standards and the steep increase in labor costs are barely noticeable at all.
But that takes us beyond a technical discussion and into an ideological one, which isn’t the place here. The simple truth is that we in the West will have to come to terms with it—and watch as the high-speed train pulls away from us.
 
This is just a crappy drawing, but could be like this:
View attachment 783591

I suspect the nose gear just folds forward more conventionally. We can see the lines of a pretty long door extent in front of the nosegear, and if we lower the nosegear to a fully retracted length/height, it should fit in a forward folding fashion pretty comfortably within that door it looks like

1756976405221.png

1756976469962.png
 
China is in a position to cover the entire spectrum of military aviation roles with a wide range of platforms.
This means that for decades to come we can expect it to keep producing and operating several types of fourth-generation aircraft, alongside at least four types of manned stealth tactical fighters (and probably more, if a STOVL or dedicated strike aircraft enters service), plus a vast array of drones of different classes and weight categories.
No other country in the world will be able to match this, and the gap will only keep growing wider.
China can do this because of the efficiency of state planning, the preservation of key strategic assets in public ownership, and the predominance of state direction. These factors already give it an advantage in many areas and in the age of big data they will allow it to be even more effective in domains where progress has traditionally been driven by markets and competition. Btw, in the aerospace and defense sector, the rapid rise in Chinese living standards and the steep increase in labor costs are barely noticeable at all.
But that takes us beyond a technical discussion and into an ideological one, which isn’t the place here. The simple truth is that we in the West will have to come to terms with it—and watch as the high-speed train pulls away from us.
you are overreacting, UCAVs have some advantages over manned aircraft , but also limits.

UCAVs have 3 main advantages, no pilot means, no human casualty, no canopy less drag, no cockpit more space for fuel and avionics and that is it.

The limits are since the weapons are standardized, the weapons bays are the same size, they need the same engines and same aerodynamics.

Then they are slightly cheaper and have relatively longer range, but they can be jammed, they require more avionics, and they can fail too because replacing a human is practically very difficult because the programmers need to write too much code and the designers consider more situations.

UCAVs might be slightly more agile under some conditions due to the lack of pilots, but at high speed all are not agile


China made that parade for propaganda, but realistically they will encounter the same troubles other have and EVs crash even with AI.

Three reported dead after Xiaomi car with driver assistance crashes​

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/business/2025/04/02/tech/xiaomi-driver-assistance-crash/

China’s massive ADAS test: 36 cars, 15 hazard scenarios, 216 crashes​

https://carnewschina.com/2025/07/24...test-36-cars-15-hazard-scenarios-216-crashes/
 
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Not relevant comparison. China dominates the ship manufacturing industry and able to fall back on economy of scale while America ship manufacturing industry is barely alive thus its military ships are extremely costly. The same cannot be said for aerospace industry.
It's less a matter of specific industrial fields and just the overall industrial advantage China holds firmly over the US. It's simply a given that China can produce equivalent systems to the US at a lower cost for various reasons. So I wouldn't be surprised if even higher end Chinese UAVs end up being fairly cheap for what they deliver and especially compared to equivalent US systems. Which is also why it's odd that US officials basically said that according to their war games less capable, more numerous CCAs are their choice. Because that seems to an outsider like a hill I wouldn't fight China on. Quantity is not something where the US can realistically match China.
 
As a man of the West, I suggest we add the crying emoji reaction to the forum
It would surely come in handy on topics relating to Chinese or select Russian topics where US and EU based boomers are struggling to comprehend technological advances east of the German border.

Alternatively the rolling eyes emoji would be another excellent choice.
 
This is just a crappy drawing, but could be like this:
View attachment 783591
Yes, that arrangement occurred to me, though the issue is going to be getting a solid connection at the top of the gear leg to transfer the load into the airframe and reliably lock and unlock on demand. I'm not sure whether it's a common arrangement to have a translating rather than just rotating gear leg, and it's all got to fit in pretty limited space.
 
Solution used on many aircrafts, so nothing exceptional I think.
Agreed, I just hadn't seen any pics sharp enough to allow the third door to be seen, you can just make it out on Blitzo's later post.
 
you are overreacting, UCAVs have some advantages over manned aircraft , but also limits.

UCAVs have 3 main advantages, no pilot means, no human casualty, no canopy less drag, no cockpit more space for fuel and avionics and that is it.

The limits are since the weapons are standardized, the weapons bays are the same size, they need the same engines and same aerodynamics.

Then they are slightly cheaper and have relatively longer range, but they can be jammed, they require more avionics, and they can fail too because replacing a human is practically very difficult because the programmers need to write too much code and the designers consider more situations.

UCAVs might be slightly more agile under some conditions due to the lack of pilots, but at high speed all are not agile


China made that parade for propaganda, but realistically they will encounter the same troubles other have and EVs crash even with AI.

Three reported dead after Xiaomi car with driver assistance crashes​

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/business/2025/04/02/tech/xiaomi-driver-assistance-crash/

China’s massive ADAS test: 36 cars, 15 hazard scenarios, 216 crashes​

https://carnewschina.com/2025/07/24...test-36-cars-15-hazard-scenarios-216-crashes/

I think we misunderstood each other. I have always said, and will keep saying, that unmanned aircraft are essentially "atrophied" airplanes, because they have been stripped of the most important thing – the human brain.
That’s why in my post I was talking about the many types of manned aircraft that will remain in the PLAAF and PLANAAF inventories for the next 50 years, including fourth-generation ones.
 
if a STOVL or dedicated strike aircraft enters service
Not sure why China needs an STOVL strike fighter in the near term. Any island China has built / currently uses in the SCS would also be reachable and covered by land based fighters - not to mention they can just materialize an island in the middle of the ocean anyway. STOVL fighters are for cases where you have limited space to deploy fighters / need distributed operations / want to jump them off of little forward bases / small carriers. China can just fly their planes off however many carriers they pump out like sausages. The smaller carriers (or giant LHDs) just need to fly drones and helicopters.
No other country in the world will be able to match this, and the gap will only keep growing wider.

unmanned aircraft are essentially "atrophied" airplanes, because they have been stripped of the most important thing – the human brain.
That’s why in my post I was talking about the many types of manned aircraft that will remain in the PLAAF and PLANAAF inventories for the next 50 years, including fourth-generation ones.
I read the first comment and I thought you were referring to the production capacity and what appears to be more exquisite systems put out, which I have no objections to, but coupled with the second comment, I'm not sure what "gap" you are referring to anymore.

As it stands, yes - the human brain is very important to the fighter and I don't think it'll ever change, but that's a very very broad statement in that field. It's important insofar as figuring out complex and uncommon cases in the broader tactical picture, but it may well become inferior in other, more tactical cases (like flying the perfect trajectory, speed, etc to perform an action). But what is the gap you are speaking of here? The number's / types gap or something else?

To add to both of your discussion points, I don't think the state of AI allows for an exquisite and fully autonomous platform. If you have a fully autonomous platform, it is bound to encounter edge cases that it can't account for / operate against - and usually cases that a human controller / pilot would be able to resolve. Instead, your fully autonomous platforms ought to be sufficiently attritable so that when it covers your 90% of general cases, it's loss to the 10% unaccounted for isn't costly. I don't think that's lost on either the US nor China as even in this parade, China has showcased CCA/UAVs on both ends of the spectrum.
If China's high-end CCAs end up being cheaper than America's cheap, junk ones—just look at what the Constellation-class frigates or the LCS program cost.
That's a terribly superficial assessment. The whole loyal wing man concept is still fairly new. I'd even say it's almost as revolutionary as the introduction of the airplane to warfare itself. I won't comment on what conclusions the Chinese came to vs the US when it came to CCAs because I don't fully understand either, but I can tell you that the way China pursues "tech maturity" is a lot different to me than the way the US does it.

In broad strokes and certainly not at all without exceptions, given new technology, China pursues maturity in "breakthrough fashion" for lack of a better term - by building an actual end to end prototype of something and improving upon that. There's a lot more risk associated, but the payoff is high too. Like what Geo said, government organized production / R&D benefits this greatly, not to mention the CCP doesn't have to answer to idiot civilian oversight for its budget. Even if a project turns out poorly, it doesn't become a 10 year political problem with slimy journalists yanking it out every 30 days to whip the dead horse again.

The US goes about maturing tech by introducing them into existing systems and working out the kinks during that process. Once there's enough "risk reduction" done, then a new ground up system is built. I'm sure China does some of this too where appropriate.If we didn't have a populace hell bent on worrying about the wrong things and a media that loves to sensationalize every failed test as an unacceptable waste of tax dollars, then yes - R&D will naturally become more "breakthrough focused" for lack of a better term.

Further, there isn't any reason the US isn't capable of building an exquisite CCA in the future - talent wise. I don't for a moment believe that somehow LM, Boeing and NG is less capable than General Atomics let alone Anduril in building a CCA. They were not chosen on increment 1 because the goal was intentionally to build middle of the road CCAs in terms of capability and then see what can be learned from operating them.

The decision to field smurf sized CCAs was a deliberate one and might well be an operational one too. Again - China has the geographical advantage here. They have the space to fly large CCAs in any number of air fields in eastern China. The US doesn't have that luxury. No matter how great you think Chinese engineering is, there's no way you're going to shoot any of the Type A or Type B CCAs off a road launcher. There's also no way you can operate them without an airfield or converting them to STOVL. Any exquisite US CCA option that doesn't shoot off a launcher also needs to be capable of being refueled, which further adds complexity.

Fundamentally, the gap is and remains in industrial capacity and generally speaking, organizational advantage.

I believe the first rate nature of US defense contractors died with the Soviet Union - the mergers in the 90s to 2000s
I generally agree with what you're saying, but despite all the mergers and general detriment that happened during that time, I don't at all think that all US defense contractors at the moment are not "first rate" - particularly in space and aerospace. If anything, both continue to be widely competitive. Instead, it's the funding and general political will that is nowhere near where it should have been (granted that's also connected with what you were saying.
 
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It might be worth setting up a dedicated thread just for discussing CCA theory and possible requirements/design philosophies. I will note that the U.S. wants more mass in quick fashion, and seems to have opted for fairly light weight aircraft that can carry the bare minimum of armaments (2xAAM) and keep up with an F-35 not using a reheat. This leverages a lot of second tier non primes/prime subsidiaries/new primes that are not associated with manned fighter programs. The low performance requirements (specifically low thrust with no reheat) also leverages a lot of relatively inexpensive off the shelf civilian engine production. I think these are the primary reasons for the size and performance goals of Incr1. But basing and short take off capabilities were probably also a consideration - it probably takes very little runway to get a YFQ-42/44 off the ground with a RATO or two, and trailer launch might even be possible as XQ-58, which is in roughly the same MTOW.

But something else to consider is that CCA is the top end of a family of systems designed to spread capability and increase target density. There is probably also an optionally recoverable layer of sensor/com/weapons platforms of much lower sophistication (see the air launched UTAP-22 with what appears to be an IRST) and a further layer of expendable decoys that operate like a more modern MALD, with an explicitly stated goal of trying to blur which are armed, which are unarmed but still sensor/com nodes, and which are pure chaff. That strategy will tend to self select to subsonic performance, because making a supersonic, let alone super cruising, decoy or cheap sensor UAV is going to self defeating cost wise, and making the high end armed UAV operate in a blatantly different performance regime and IR signature largely defeats the purpose of having any low end systems.
 
The above begs the question: why is the manned NGAD high performance? And I would say short version: because it’s manned.

Long version:

1) no one in the U.S. is going to ask a pilot to strap into a dramatically less capable aircraft than his opponent.

2) manned NGAD likely is viewed as not just a controller aircraft but also as a hedge in case broad AI automated aircraft networks do not pan out as quickly as expected.

3) F-47 likely is seen in the best of times/most successful of CCA engagements as the exploitation force that makes an end run into a weakened IADS against support aircraft targets or just disorganized opponent fighters.
 
2) manned NGAD likely is viewed as not just a controller aircraft but also as a hedge in case broad AI automated aircraft networks do not pan out as quickly as expected.
Pretty sure thats one of the reasons why the NGAD review was carried out. Sometimes I look at the AI thread on this forum (and people's opinions elsewhere) and I can't help but feel like many non CS people and especially older people either think AI is capable of crazy things like take over humanity or AI is just a trash bubble thats gonna pop.

Its most definitely true that CCAs and UAVs are not going to be fully autonomous and they can never truly replace the human pilot. Thats part of the reason why both the US and China are proceeding with manned 6th gens.
 
Pretty sure thats one of the reasons why the NGAD review was carried out. Sometimes I look at the AI thread on this forum (and people's opinions elsewhere) and I can't help but feel like many non CS people and especially older people either think AI is capable of crazy things like take over humanity or AI is just a trash bubble thats gonna pop.

Its most definitely true that CCAs and UAVs are not going to be fully autonomous and they can never truly replace the human pilot. Thats part of the reason why both the US and China are proceeding with manned 6th gens.

Using software agents is inherently revolutionary and risky, but I certainly would not use the word “never” and I also would not assume control from a local aircraft was the default for long. Aircraft AI are not LLMs; they do not have to be skilled at interacting or random situations - they have a very specific role with a purified dataset. And quite honestly I think the USAF is lying through its teeth when it says this is all about local control: IMO, it makes much more sense for control to come via LEO low latency satellites and control to come from an overseer AI on the ground with humans on the loop. The efficiency of looking at the entire picture at once with machine learning is likely to be extreme - what if you could count every time an opponent launches or measure their performance at the theater level to determine tactics and aid in ID of platform types? The fact that the first render of the YFQ-44 had an antenna farm convinces me this is where things are truly going, and that local human control is a crawl before you run/fallback control scenario.

Note that in this scenario, the underlying satellite network and the algorithms that control all the NGAD automated platforms are far more important than the individual platforms. Note that automation of the manned platform could also be in play.
 
It would surely come in handy on topics relating to Chinese or select Russian topics where US and EU based boomers are struggling to comprehend technological advances east of the German border.

Alternatively the rolling eyes emoji would be another excellent choice.

I believe the proper response here is

Get off my lawn, kid
 
It would surely come in handy on topics relating to Chinese or select Russian topics where US and EU based boomers are struggling to comprehend technological advances east of the German border.

Alternatively the rolling eyes emoji would be another excellent choice.
Some of the 'boomers' have been posting in this forum since you were a squalling baby, so bear that in mind when feeling certain you know more and better than them.

I'm not a "boomer" per se (Gen X, personally) but I would argue that misunderstanding of Russian/Chinese technological advances occurs in both directions (uncritical fanboi-ism is as wrong as reflexive dismissal) and is not constrained by generation, nationality or background. Moreover smugness is not a positive attitude.
 
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I think we misunderstood each other. I have always said, and will keep saying, that unmanned aircraft are essentially "atrophied" airplanes, because they have been stripped of the most important thing – the human brain.
That’s why in my post I was talking about the many types of manned aircraft that will remain in the PLAAF and PLANAAF inventories for the next 50 years, including fourth-generation ones.
UAVs and UCAVs are of different types, the small ones are changing warfare because soldiers can carry them example Ukraine.

Others are far more complex the ones used by Iran are slow and easy to down, in fact Iran had almost no success.

The ones with jet engines are not different to manned aircraft, if they get close they will be downed and are not cheap, due to complex software, they are not cheap, a Drone has the same limits a manned aircraft has in payload, weapons bays size, radar set, and if get close it will downed, Iran sent many Drones and most were shot down same will be a stealthy UCAV.

Parades are a part of psychological warfare, but the reality, a highly complex jet engine powered drone will have almost the same troubles a manned aircraft has but the only advantage is no pilot will die and a bit longer range only that.

Small electric drones are changing warfare because of their large production capability, but jet powered drones have similar problems to manned aircraft and similar production capability.
 
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Some of the 'boomers' have been posting in this forum since you were a squalling baby, so bear that in mind when feeling certain you know more and better than them.

I'm not a "boomer" per se (Gen X, personally) but I would argue that misunderstanding of Russian/Chinese technological advances occurs in both directions (uncritical fanboi-ism is as wrong as reflexive dismissal) and is not constrained by generation, nationality or background. Moreover smugness is not a positive attitude.

I'm not smug, and I certainly don't pretend like I know more than some or even many of the users here.

But let's be honest here, when people here try to say that a large UCAV is obsolete because it's chinese not VTOL capable, age (be it physical or virtual) isn't a viable cop out. In fact I'd argue age is never a viable cop out, while age can be associated with plenty of experience or even wisdom, older people generally have a harder time to grasp concepts and developments that are significantly newer.

I don't think there's much use in turning this into fundamental age based debate though. I used "boomer" as a stand in for people roughly above 35-40 which hold outdated views and recoil at the thought of adjusting their outlook according to the current situation. I didn't even mean it in a mean way, I just struggle to describe it in any other way really. Perhaps chauvinists?
 
I'm not smug, and I certainly don't pretend like I know more than some or even many of the users here.

But let's be honest here, when people here try to say that a large UCAV is obsolete because it's chinese not VTOL capable, age (be it physical or virtual) isn't a viable cop out. In fact I'd argue age is never a viable cop out, while age can be associated with plenty of experience or even wisdom, older people generally have a harder time to grasp concepts and developments that are significantly newer.

I don't think there's much use in turning this into fundamental age based debate though. I used "boomer" as a stand in for people roughly above 35-40 which hold outdated views and recoil at the thought of adjusting their outlook according to the current situation. I didn't even mean it in a mean way, I just struggle to describe it in any other way really. Perhaps chauvinists?
do not misquote me, UCAVs with jet engines are expensive, The Russian build a UCAV with a large jet engine, they can not produce many, regardless is Russian or Chinese or French, the jet engine has the same price regardless is for an UCAV or a manned aircraft, the inlet needed for that jet engine also has the same needs regardless is for an UCAV or a manned aircraft, the speed is the same drag is the same problem for UCAVs or manned aircraft.

The PL-15 or AIM-260 has the same size regardless is fired by a UCAV or a manned aircraft same other types of ammunitions.

UCAVs are at times relatively small when they want to replace small and limited manned aircraft, but to make a UCAV carry the same payload that is carried by a B-2, the size of such UCAV will be almost the same size of that B-2.
The structure to build such UCAV will differ in very little to a B-2, basically you are only skipping a cockpit, only that the rest is the same.

Your problem is you do not consider technical realities, knowledge works the same you are 20 or 60 years old, facts are the same regardless of the person`s age, the most important is know the technical basic principles, and what we are talking is mostly high school knowledge.
 
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Using software agents is inherently revolutionary and risky, but I certainly would not use the word “never” and I also would not assume control from a local aircraft was the default for long.
It all depends on what your usage philosophy is. AI won't ever be able to fully replace a human pilot until one day we "crack our own code", but AI/Autonomous systems can very well do the more menial tasks - like fly itself, navigate, lob missiles etc.

In terms of command and control, I'll qualify this a little more minutely. There are different levels of controls with regards to any UAVs. You can have broad strategic control (i.e patrol this area), overall tactical control (i.e coordinate an attack with other aircraft from this aspect") and you can have low level tactical control (i.e engagment altitude, speed, distance etc). I expect all UAVs / CCAs right now to be able to do low level tactical control fully autonomously. None of them are going to be used to do the strategic control section, but overall tactical control can vary depending on how exquisite your software for that is. Which brings us to ...
Aircraft AI are not LLMs;
I agree that aircraft are not machine learning models, but in many ways, CCAs and today's autonomous systems rely on ML as indispensible organs within the system (also LLMs are probably not the best kind of ML model that goes into a system like this). It's just not the only or even the single most important part of the autonomous system.

The entire system includes ML usage where appropriate, with the inappropriate situations being defined in large part still by written program logic. The two go hand in hand and for any modern self respecting autonomous system, one can't do without the other.

On the ML side, the main usages for it is different levels of decision making, and signals processing. The signals processing part is fairly trivial and not within scope of this. To me, it would be the decision making that forms the core innovation of the whole CCA concept compared to other autonomous systems from before. At the broader tactical control level, say in an air to air engagement, manned aircraft won't be operating the low tactical level of a CCA. At the broad tactical level, it has to account for the rest of it's immediate system and decide on how to act. In practice, it'll be an entire frame work of multiple ML models in addition to rules based systems in which each model has a specific job or is integrating the outputs of lower level ML models to from a bigger picture before making a decision output. Ofcourse it should be stressed that this is not your end result at all, but it is a rather central part of having a robust yet safe decision process.

The rest of the meat and bones is the autonomous systems software that wraps ML models and subjects ML model's output to the rules determined by man. From the high level - such as defining guard rails for engagement behavior, down to the low level - such as flying complex maneuver - most of the work I've seen in this area largely doesn't use ML models or uses them rather modestly, usually integrated with certain sensors (such as the recognition models in your Tesla that tells the car to stop if it identifies immediate obstacles). Quite frankly, we don't need ML to fly a plane autonomously. Without this added layer of safety and injection of human determined rules, no amount of ML will ever get anything done.

Without ML, robustness is certainly still possible, but compared to ML augmented decision making, your robustness is limited. Most early UCAVs would have probably been using rules based logic for autonomy. With CCA's you aren't just expecting them to follow written rules. When you've got a hundred different units in theater, commanded by manned fighters at a roughly 6:1 ratio, you'll have to have greater robustness for independent decision making and taking action within a system. That's ML augmented layer is probably what sets CCAs apart from older UCAVs like the early predators. However, whether it's from a safety or a effectiveness perspective, no ML model can just complete these tasks as a standalone thing either. ML usage in autonomous systems can be thought of as a sensor. As with various sensors, you always have to account for noise and inaccurate signals coming from any of your sensors. Yet you also can't do without it. That brings us to ...

they do not have to be skilled at interacting or random situations - they have a very specific role with a purified dataset.
I'd argue that they do have to be skilled at interacting with random situations not in the least because randomness is a central and sometimes even decisive part of warfare. Randomness and noise are also the direct result of degraded and even denied operating conditions, so in order to have resilient systems, they must be able to account for randomness as much as possible. Even within their own specific roles where whatever models are used in the system is trained on a purified dataset, there's randomness that you cannot possibly account for no matter how pure your dataset is. If there aren't any ML models to worry about, then you'd arguably have an even bigger problem of randomness to account for. The more exquisite a system, the more it must account for randomness.

Keep in mind that even a fully autonomous system is still acting inside a broader system formed by other UAS and manned elements that may or may not be fully connected with the current autonomous system. That's not even accounting for opposition elements, jamming, poor weather, unexpected actions from manned elements or other degraded conditions yet. In a shooting war, even if all your unmanned elements perform as expected, they still have to interact with the sometimes irrational, unnormal actions of manned elements. The permutations of randomness for an aircraft of even a single role is already overwhelming let alone pitting it against an opposing system. Having a baseline ability to account for random situations is absolutely necessary and the more exquisite a UAS, the more randomness it needs to account for within its mission set and within the broader system in which it operates.

And quite honestly I think the USAF is lying through its teeth when it says this is all about local control: IMO, it makes much more sense for control to come via LEO low latency satellites and control to come from an overseer AI on the ground with humans on the loop.
Agreed. Pretty sure I saw some article recently about the Chinese working on laser datalinking from satellites. Kendall at the time also talked about laser datalinks though in the context of control between manned and unmanned elements.

The efficiency of looking at the entire picture at once with machine learning is likely to be extreme - what if you could count every time an opponent launches or measure their performance at the theater level to determine tactics and aid in ID of platform types? The fact that the first render of the YFQ-44 had an antenna farm convinces me this is where things are truly going, and that local human control is a crawl before you run/fallback control scenario.


Note that in this scenario, the underlying satellite network and the algorithms that control all the NGAD automated platforms are far more important than the individual platforms. Note that automation of the manned platform could also be in play.
Well yes you are right, but that's situation specific. There's no single AI that can "do it all", but there are AI applications that can do things much better than humans can. And as you've noted, how well such an AI can perform is still dependent on the input from the sensor nodes. Fooling an AI then in part becomes a problem of electronic and kinetic warfare. It's also not impossible to have AI fool AI either. Still AI will be an invaluable tool in such applications and that's obviously where things are going, but the human in the loop is at best going to stay where it is and at worst going to still be making decisions when AI gets confused and the broader system (in your example) is sufficiently degraded.

As I've said previously - we need to think of AI as a sensor, or rather a sensor integrator: you have curate the input, validate the output and process the output. No output, not even from a general AI that is just as intelligent as a human, is error prone. And every AI is only as good as the data it can access and the data it's been given. As it applies to CCAs, I don't think control will ever be completely autonomous no matter the controlling medium. At the strategic level, no one is going to offload actual command of a theater engagement off to AI entirely. At the broad tactical level, the CCA will be able to do 90 - 95% of the reasoning autonomously, but when it's about to shoot down an airliner thinking it's a P-8 or something, someone somewhere needs a kill switch. At the low tactical level is the only place where a CCA can be fully autonomous but only if its equipped sufficiently (such as collision avoidance sensors, which apparently some initial CCA test articles didn't have).
 
I would not presume to guess what AI can do in 2030. If I told you an LLM could pass the bar exam five years ago, would you believe me? And while interacting with humans might take a lot of data that is potentially trash, engaging in an air battles relatively speaking is closer to a game of chess or Go. There are pieces with relatively defined capabilities and parameters, so long as you can identify them, and you can narrow down platform type by how and where you detect them, and you can plan for a narrow range of physical possibilities. Trying to convincingly interact with a human is I would argue much more complicated.

This probably does not work well defensively among friendly manned aircraft, but offensively in a weapons free ROE it I would not think this would require a super complicated software agent, even if we are talking locally based rather than something ground based.

And my theory is that USAF develops a local AI that pilots can assign behaviors and missions to, but that the local manned element is superseded by another ground based AI connected by satellite with human overwatch. There after the human controller aircraft are a fallback/graceful degradation option if central control over the entire theater is interrupted or needs to be discontinued for some kind of logic failure.

But the advantages of a single mind running the entire playbook to achieve specific effects would be hard to under estimate. It would be the equivalent of one of those play by play strategic warfare table top games for an AI, where the results of any move can likely be modeled, predicted, and adjusted for, and every scrap of sensor information collected used to explicitly characterize the opponent down to individual aircraft and pilots.

That is where this is ultimately going.
 
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I would not presume to guess what AI can do in 2030. If I told you an LLM could pass the bar exam five years ago, would you believe me?
I'm not trying to agitate you or be mean, but five years ago, when I was still doing research on LLMs, it hasn't surprised me at all that AI can do that. Things that we were researching 5 years ago may well have been innovative within the field, but it's still far away from general intelligence. Moreover, I'd argue that on the path to general intelligence, we've only been able to do what we could do before a little better at a time, but we are far far away from being able to combine that into general intelligence. Even combining a few models that are specialized for different things together requires specific algorithms to do so. That's why I said - there are things that AI and software engineering together can achieve, but algorithmically, most every advancement made in AI is limited by how much we can understand of our own learning pathways and reasoning skills. That requires not just huge amounts of memory, but also the algorithms to support it. It's also why large models that you would think be able to reason better don't actually reason better.

You will get close to what a human can do, you will surpass what humans are capable of in closed problem spaces, but in open and general case problem spaces where there are always permutations outside of the general case, AI isn't going to out do a human - at least not always.
And while interacting with humans might take a lot of data that is potentially trash, engaging in an air battles relatively speaking is closer to a game of chess or Go. There are pieces with relatively defined capabilities and parameters, so long as you can identify them, and you can narrow down platform type by how and where you detect them, and you can plan for a narrow range of physical possibilities. Trying to convincingly interact with a human is I would argue much more complicated.

This probably does not work well defensively among friendly manned aircraft, but offensively in a weapons free ROE it I would think this would not take a super complicated software agent.
That's the thing - chess and go are finite problem spaces, meaning that there is a finite number of states that could occur. These are problems that AI excels at. Each state is also discrete.

In an air battle, yes the general case can be thought of as a finite system, but in practice, that's never the case. We can refer back to the sensor framework again: what created the input to the system? what is the nature of the input? what is the output? and what's using the output?

For any onboard decision making process enabled or augmented by AI, the input is always datalink, and sensor data. Your sensor data depends on jamming and electronic warfare happening all around you. The states that electronic warfare can induce upon a sensor is already a problem that approaches an open problem space, meaning that there can be infinite ( or at least a large enough) problem space that introduces uncertainty into your system. If your datalink is jammed or if your datalink sources have become disabled for one reason or another, you now have even less input into the system. Couple that with the fact that there will be things in the broader system who may or may not be in contact with you, or in contact with the broader system and already the inputs to the decision making process is degraded. Then you also have to account for unexpected things. Thanks to the whole system of systems concept, a change in your smaller system might well induce a change in the larger system too, which means depending on the problem inducing change, elements within your broader system must also react accordingly. So in these cases, your encapsulating automation code would sanitize the input and toss out or do some data preparation, but ultimately what can't be used just can't be used sometimes and a lack of reliable information is just that - a lack of reliable info.

Having accounted for the input and source, the output of your system relies upon your model. Do note that many many models perform very well because they have the luxury to be ran inside a cluster or a data center. The smaller the UAS, the more difficult it is to fit a large model into the system - not necessarily because of memory constraints but because of the energy it consumes. For that reason, a lot of ML related robotics research focuses on small or truncated models and frameworks. People can and do build in resilience to ML models by training them under degraded assumptions and there are techniques to mitigate poor quality input, but in the end, the way we model knowledge in such a model is through a series of projections. For every projection you've done, information may or may not be lost, resolution may or may not be downgraded, and you already introduce inherent error and randomness into the model. And so in a degraded environment with degraded inputs, lossy projections inside the model, and imperfect algorithms, your decision making model may or may not already be making poor decisions.

That output, however, will be funneled through various rules based models, that will ultimately construct contingencies around most of these cases, but I know for a fact that no matter how much software testing you do, when push comes to shove, unexpected things always happens. This doesn't yet account for various hardware failures and what not.

So a lot of problems look like they are finite solution spaces on the surfaces and are frequently thought of and programmed as such, but that's why they are able to handle the general case and not always the edge cases. Any warfare on paper looks like a chess match, but throw system failures and degraded environments into the mix and it almost always becomes an infinite solution space, in which case purpose built AI encapsulated in automation code very well does catch most things either with analytics or catch-all conditions, but nothing can ever be completely accounted for. It's why even the best software companies have to push out hot fixes, iterations, and bug patches regularly. For an autonomous system that needs to be "fully autonomous", its survivability is no longer just the materials that make up the airframe or the capability of its sensors, but also the decision making authority within the system and how well the entire "mind" of the system understands itself, the system it's part of, and the environment it operates in.

Also - yes - you can limit the scope of what such a decision making model on a CCA does, but ultimately that doesn't change the lossy interactions between external and internal systems and system of systems. Where there is loss, there is uncertainty. Ultimately, the UAS that can reason around these uncertainties to still perform the mission is the one that wins.
 
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All fair points. But in a data denied BVR environment…is the human really at any advantage? If a pilot has to wait for mk1 eyeball range, or even just platform sensor range, is he or she operating at a higher level than a even a rules based processor given a set instruction or target list? Where does the human have the advantage if working with the same lack of data, especially if there are three platforms out there hunting him for the same cost operating under the same constraints?

Again, I can see automation being super complicated in an environment with friendlies or neutrals in a data denied environment - you basically have to rely on IFF, or a weapons tight ROE which complicates every engagement. But if there’s a geo fenced free fire zone of weapons free…does the platform even need AI? And either way, how is a human deprived of data any better than a machine deprived of data in that environment?
 
I am not sure if anyone mentioned this before
It's noteworthy that during the parade, Chinese officials used three distinct classifications: 'reconnaissance-strike integrated UAVs,' 'unmanned loyal wingmen,' and 'unmanned air combat aircraft.' Specifically, in order: the first aircraft in the front row (WZ-10) is a 'reconnaissance-strike integrated UAV,' the two slightly smaller ones in the second row are 'unmanned loyal wingmen,' and the two larger ones in the third row are 'unmanned air combat aircraft.' Personally, I believe this may imply that these two larger UAVs possess a certain level of independent air combat capabilities
 
May I ask how guys distinguish these four aircraft? They don't even have any reporting name:oops:
 
how is a human deprived of data any better than a machine deprived of data in that environment?
I think human's themselves aren't necessarily going to better deprived of data, but ultimately it comes down to being able to reason using greater contextual understanding. No matter what AI you use, it's memory constrained, processing constrained and in some cases energy constrained ontop of being data constrained. That tends to mean that it can take in a smaller set of contextual parameters. A human can very well also lose situational awareness and become blindsided, but a well trained human pilot might well be able to access greater contextual evidence than any autonomous system was programed to. It is really really hard to come up with an example though, but I'll use a stupid and generally imperfect example from ChatGPT.

I can tell ChatGPT the background of what I want to achieve say, "measure the mean aerodynamic chord using a 3d model of a jet's wing". I need to give it the coordinates, give it the axes and their directions, and every time it'll spit out an answer with the context available to it even if it's not the right answer. In order to nudge it towards doing what you want it to do, you have to keep feeding context to it.

Yes, you can also keep building layers of reasoning be it rules based or ML based, but that adds overhead and cost onto the processing, and energy consumption. Because at the end of the day computers are understanding numbers and you have to be the one programming its reasoning abilities, the overhead and cost begins to snowball. Also keep in mind that while a reasoning framework can be accessed via a shared API, the way it integrates with each system might well require further complex, hardware specific integration. So given all these limits, its why in certain situations, you the user might well be able to solve something much faster than a context limited AI can.

As it relates to these Chinese CCAs - yes you can have exquisite platforms that carry exquisite hardware, but pairing that with subpar software is just a waste of resources. I'm not saying Chinese software sucks. I'm saying that you need to have a sufficient match between the capability of the hardware and the capability of the command and control in order for that pairing to make sense. You can have a highly capable air superiority unmanned platform, but it may or may not perform well if used fully autonomously, which is why I think all these systems are still going to be taking commands from manned systems or the broader system's command system rather than independently pursuing a mission like releasing a pack of rabid dogs (unless like you said it's going to be some geofenced special location where it has permission to shoot at literally anything).

Another point to made here is that making a high spec CCA airframe in the scope of developing a CCA isn't really where the "juice" is at. Non-world power countries like Turkey, France and Korea all make some kind of LO CCA. It's having that correspondingly sophisticated command and control / decision making software. Or else, what you're building is essentially a glorified stealthy UCAV - useful, but maybe not quite as robust or adaptive.
 
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May I ask how guys distinguish these four aircraft? They don't even have any reporting name:oops:

Most people seem to be aligning with these designations - this is from Huitong's site (https://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/uavucav-iii.html)

UADF.jpg
Type A is thought to be a large supersonic UCAV or “unmanned air dominance fighter”. It features tailless lambda wings, all moving wingtips, an internal weapon bay, two caret engine intakes and a single WS-10C class engine without a TVC nozzle. Type A is believed to be in service with PLAAF stationed in Southwest China (S/N 53x3x). Type A is speculated to have been developed by 601/SAC and adopts some 6-generation fighter technologies.

CCA9.jpg
Type B is also a large supersonic UCAV or “unmanned air dominance fighter”. It features tailless diamond wings, all moving wingtips, an EOTS under the nose, MADL antennas outside the engine intakes, dorsal EO turrets, an internal weapon bay, two DSIs and a single WS-10C class engine without a TVC nozzle. Type B is believed to be in service with PLAAF stationed in Southwest China (S/N 53x3x). Type B is speculated to have been developed by 611/CAC and adopts some 6-generation fighter technologies. A satellite image released in July 2021 showed a prototype was being tested at CAC.

VTUAV.jpg Type C* is thought to be a CCA or “unmanned wingman”. It features jagged swept wings, canted tail fins, a dorsal engine intake and a single engine. Type C appears similar to the earlier FH-97.

CCA_41b.jpg
Type D is also a CCA or “unmanned wingman”. It features swept wings, canted tail fins, an internal weapon bay, a dorsal engine intake and a single engine. It appears similar to American XQ-58A. Type D is believed to be in service with PLAAF stationed in Southwest China (S/N 53x3x).

CCA_42.jpg Type E is yet another CCA or “unmanned wingman”. It features diamond wings, canted tail fins, a dorsal engine intake and a single engine. Type E is believed to be in service with PLAAF stationed in Southwest China (S/N 53x3x).
 

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