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Chinese Liaoning Carrier enters service (former Soviet carrier Varyag)

Grey Havoc

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http://www.infowars.com/our-warships-rival-u-s-navy-brags-chinese-pla/

The report heralds the prowess of the Liaoning, along with its accompanying battleships, the “Shenyang” and “Shijiazhuang” missile destroyers as well as the “Yantai” and “Weifang” guided missile frigates.

The “combat effectiveness” of the fleet, once additional warships are added, will transform its firepower to a level, “very close to a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group in its heyday,” states the report. Beijing plans to rival “the usual practice adopted by the U.S. Navy” by supplementing the combat force with a further two destroyers, an assault nuclear submarine and one supply ship.

“Given the consideration of the smaller tonnage and bomb load of the warships of the PLAN than those of the U.S. warships, the combat effectiveness of this taskforce is probably close to the current carrier strike group (CSG) of the U.S. (1-2 cruisers, 2-3 destroyers and other supporting warships),” states the report.

Some will see no coincidence in the timing of the report given the current stand-off between China and the U.S. over the disputed Senkaku Islands. It dovetails with a separate announcement that Beijing, “has begun mass producing and delivering its J-15 carrier-based multirole fighter jet.”
So the PRC actually have at least one CGN now under construction?
 

Jemiba

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It's probably me, but I cannot fing any mention of a CGN in that article:
"... further two destroyers, an assault nuclear submarine and one supply ship"
With regards to fighting power, conventional or nuclear propulsion seems only to
matter for the accompanying attack submarines.
 

TomS

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INdeed, it's exactly the opposite of a reputable site. If they said the sky is blue, I'd go outside and check.
 

Grey Havoc

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:)


Jemiba said:
It's probably me, but I cannot fing any mention of a CGN in that article:
"... further two destroyers, an assault nuclear submarine and one supply ship"
With regards to fighting power, conventional or nuclear propulsion seems only to
matter for the accompanying attack submarines.
I misread the part of the article relating to the planned comparative strengths of the PLAN carrier group/s and the USN CSGs and so thought that it was outright confirming that they already had cruisers for carrier escort under construction. And that led me to wondering if, due to current operational and economic conditions (as well as the all important bragging rights), it would be a CGN class, or at least a prototype.

I should note in passing that the 'Liaoning combat force' is apparently considered by the PLAN as an emergency taskforce rather than a proper carrier group.
 

Grey Havoc

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http://freebeacon.com/chinese-naval-vessel-tries-to-force-u-s-warship-to-stop-in-international-waters/


EDIT: A sound clip from a certain classic movie seems appropriate: http://goo.gl/pafuS
 

Grey Havoc

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http://gcaptain.com/u-s-navy-in-near-collision-with-chinas-liaoning-aircraft-carrier-posed-threat-global-times-says/
 

Grey Havoc

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http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1384040/carrier-commander-spoke-us-ship-captain-after-near-collision
 

sferrin

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What a joke. The US ship almost came within 30 MILES of the Chinese carrier? And we stopped? Why not just go around the skow and keep going? We were in international waters and it was certainly our right to do so.
 

Deino

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Now assigned to the 1. Carrier Command (or 1. Carrier Battle Group) ...
 

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Grey Havoc

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http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.ie/2014/01/chinese-carrier-strike-group-analysis.html

The guys over at the Sino Defense Forum have been China watchers before being a China watcher was cool. A quick look at the Chinese Carrier Strike Group follows.

CV-16 Liaoning (50~60,000 tons)
3 x Type 054A Frigate (4000 tons ea.)
2 x Type 051C (7100 tons ea.)
1 x Type 052C (7000 tons ea.)
1 x Type 071 LPD (17,000 tons ea.)
3 x Type 093G SSN (Unknown tonnage)


That's a 103,000 tons minimum CSG. Note (1) the lack of an air wing aboard CV-16 at this time. Once operational the Liaoning is expected to host approx. 24 ~ 36
J-15s. Note (2) the lack of any replenishment vessels. Note (3) only the 052C is AEGIS capable and likely co-ordinates the entire fleet air defense. This in of itself is
a weakness as it denotes a single point of failure but also tells us that the battle management software across the fleet is standardized and highly advanced to
allow for this type of co-ordination.

At this time, it is unknown what type of mission this formation is designed for. However, we know that this is a real dedicatd CSG and not just cobbled together for
a photo op. The PLAN is now able to field a near bluewater CSG in addition to covering all of its home bases.

[snip]
 

JFC Fuller

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Deino,

Interesting article, do you have the picture of the ASW Z-8 variant?
 

JFC Fuller

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Thanks Deino! Shame they put that text box right over where one would expect to see a dipping sonar hatch.
 

Deino

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Yes ... anyway interesting is the huge radar, the weapon pylons and the sonar buoys - or the holes in the rear-loding ramp - to eject them.

Can't wait to get clearer images.

Deino
 

Grey Havoc

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ORIGINAL CAPTION: The Kunming, China's first Type 052D destroyer in service. (Internet photo)

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20140331000035​
 

Deino

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fightingirish said:
So we might get some new pictures. B) :)
Sadly not ... this is all we got so far (only two mock ups !)
 

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Deino

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JFC Fuller said:
Thanks Deino! Shame they put that text box right over where one would expect to see a dipping sonar hatch.
Here's finally a good image of this new helicopter ! + the other two versions of the Z-18 in VIP and AEW-role
 

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Deino

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In interesting report was published today in the official media about the honor President Xi Jinping has given the crew of the first aircraft carrier-based fighter jet ... and the admitted loss of two pilots during the test campaign.


President Xi bestows military honors

BEIJING, Aug. 27 (Xinhua) -- Chinese President Xi Jinping has signed an order of commendation to honor the crew of the first aircraft carrier-based fighter jet.

According to the commendation order, a test squadron of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force were granted a honorary title for successfully conducting the take-off and landing tests of J-15 fighters on the Liaoning, China's sole aircraft carrier.

The order spoke highly of the squadron in the exploration and development of the J-15 fighter jet. Two test pilots of the squadron sacrificed their lives during the tests.

The commendation order urged all military personnel to learn from the squadron in cultivating combat-ready awareness, honing their skills and rooting out undesirable work styles.

Dai Mingmeng, the first J-15 pilot to have conducted a successful take-off and landing on the Liaoning, was granted a honorary title individually.

One unit and another 24 individuals were also awarded by commendation orders sighed by Xi,, in his role of chairman of the Central Military Commission, on Wednesday.

PLA Unit 91053 was awarded a third-class merit citation for outstanding contribution to major tasks.

Zheng Hui, senior engineer with the Headquarters of the General Staff; Zheng Yonghuang, chief engineer of the PLA 63620 Unit; Wang Hongli, commanding officer of the PLA 92474 Unit; Zou Jianguo, a pilot; and Cai Hongxia, chief head nurse of the 261 Hospital psychiatry department, were awarded first-class merit citations.

Liu Xiaoming, a late military instructor at PLA Information Engineering University was posthumously awarded a first-class merit citation.

Six individuals were awarded second-class merit citations and another 12 were awarded third-class merit citations.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-08/27/c_133591069.htm


Would be interesting to know under what circumstances this happened, what aircraft was lost or if the pilots were killed not in a crash ...

Deino
 

Deino

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Upppsss .. it's getting really interesting, since now the original Chinese text / report was found and it looks / sounds completely different. As such a few members at different forums are quite upset about the English version (for example see at the CDF (see http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=6582.msg243756#msg243756) and SDF.


via 'longmarch' (SDF)

新华网北京8月27日电
中央军委主席习近平日前签署命令,给1个单位、1名个人授予荣誉称号。

授予空军某试飞大队“英雄试飞大队”荣誉称号

命令指出,长期以来,该大队坚持以发展民族航空事业和建设强大空中力量为使命,教育引导试飞员把个人理想融入强军实践,官兵始终保持了旺盛斗志;积极探索理论、参与设计、试验飞行,圆满完成各项试验试飞任务,填补我国航空领域13项空白;自觉抵制诱惑、坦然面对生死,多次挑战装备和生理极限,有2名同志献出生命。特别是为圆满完成歼-15飞机在辽宁舰上成功实施阻拦着舰和滑跃起飞任务做出重大贡献。

The original source never said or hinted the two died testing J15. What it did say:
-This is to honour the long time contribution from this unit
-Two pilots from this unit died on their job
-This unit made great contribution to J-15 carriar program.

In fact, the word 圆满 indicate that the two deaths were not related to J15, at least not at sea. Otherwise it cannot be called 圆满。
Here's a post by 'cmdjing'

God damn reporters are lazy/fucking incompetent, particularly when they don't actually speak the language.

http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2014-08-27/175430753133.shtml

The original news article in Chinese is here. It mentions two "comrades" gave their lives, but does not identify them as pilots. The video goes into detail as to who was given commendations.
... also from 'yexu':

This is fake news. Actually the unit citation said two test pilots had died in the history of this unit. The accidents actually happened in the 1990's. They have nothing to do with the carrier. It's a case of poor understanding of Chinese, and a classic case of how rumors and fake news spread these days, everyone quoting everyone else. Another recent example was the alleged failure of the Wu-14 supersonic flight test.
Giving a hint that the Chinese editor for the English version is simply faking - for whatever reason - the news:

Yes, I do mean that. The original Chinese is quite clear. The English services of Chinese news organizations are notoriously poor.
From former test pilot Xu Yongling, the two test pilots died three years ago, had nothing to do with the carrier. Probably test flying the J11BS?
Andi
 

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Grey Havoc

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http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?241804
 

Deino

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To admit I don't want to use too harsh words in regard to David, but China is not really his topic ! ??? ??? As such and similar to other reports from him at the same site he makes it out to be much bigger then it was.

Overall there was indeed a mishap, but whatever happened it was not seriously enough for the Liaoning to return to the port since continued her sea trials. See link of the link to the original Sina story:

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/2014-10-14/1416805507.html

Since I can't read Chinese I got some help from "hmmwv":

Yes there was a malfunction, and here is the paragraph describing the incident, with my translation. smile Since PLA reportings tend to exaggerate the efforts of recipients of awards I wouldn't be surprised if the actual incident is less intense as it sounded. If it's truly a major steam release event there is absolutely no way that those guys conducted the repair in the manner describe.
一次航母试航过程中,后机炉舱给水管泄露,大量滚烫的炉水和蒸汽喷涌而出,机舱瞬间就淹没在水汽当中。得知情况后,楼富强立即到达现场,“班长以上人员留下,其他人员马上撤离!”下达完命令后,他一拉衣领就冲了进去,头发淋湿了,身上烫伤了,衣服刮破了……在他的带领下,大家奋
不顾身,看不到破损的部位就用手摸,底板架太高就跳到热浪袭人的舱底抢修,最终恢复了动力,保证了舰艇的平稳运行。
= via online translater:

"During a sea trial, aft boiler room feed water pipe developed a leak, large amount of boiler water and steam was released, the room is filled with vapor. After being notified, Lou Fuqiang immediately arrived at the scene and ordered that people ranked squad leader and above to be stayed and everyone else evacuate the area. He lifted HIS OWN collar and went in, his hair got wet, he got burns, his shirt ripped, under his leadership everyone put up a selfless effort. They use touch when they can't see, they went down to the bottom of the room where catwalks are too high, and finally restored power, and ensured the smooth operation of the ship".
... and via "lcloo":

According to the Chinese version, it was a leakage from one of the hot water pipes that caused hot water and steam pouring into the boiler room, the said sailor pulled up his own collar (probably to protect himself from the heat) (not as mentioned in English version where he pulled someone by his collar) and rushed into the boilder room to carry out emergency repair. Together with others they managed to restor the boiler power to ensure the ship continue its operation.
Deino
 

kaiserbill

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chuck4 said:
Chinese phase array radar, Chinese CIWS and point defense missiles. The recovery system and ILS is still Russian, I believe. They seemed to have followed the original ship design as closely as they can while substituting intended weapons and sensors for Chinese items.


Oh, the boilers and engines are probably Chinese too. The ship didn't come with these.

Just a follow on from Chucks post from a couple of years back, and using his post simply as a starting point.


I was reading this article from a month back, and was interested in the following passage:



Xu Zengping disclosed that the militarily sensitive original engines of the carrier were intact when Ukraine sold the vessel in 1998. This is contrary to what Beijing told the world at the time.

The "four intact engines had been perfectly grease-sealed" after work stopped on the vessel in 1992, presenting an enticing engineering package for a country seeking a leg up for its military.
It is the first time anyone linked to the deal has confirmed publicly the engines were in place at the time of purchase. Earlier reports said the vessel's power generation system was removed at Ukraine's Nikolayev South Shipyard on the Black Sea along with its electronics and weaponry before Xu bought it in 1998 for US$20 million.
"When I was taken to the carrier's engine room by the shipyard's chief engineer, I found all four engines were brand new and carefully grease-sealed, each of them originally costing US$20 million," Xu said. He said a refit finished in 2011 restored the four engines to operating condition.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1681710/sea-trials-how-one-man-bought-china-its-aircraft-carrier


Obviously, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this passage, but it seems to make the most sense, when one reflects on it.
I recall that there has been much speculation about the engine fit.
If true, it appears that the engines were always there, which would make a lot of sense despite the initial Ukrainian and Chinese denials.

It appears China got an absolute bargain on this whole deal.
 

kaiserbill

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With hindsight, I wonder if the original terms along the lines of "lacked functioning propulsion" was then warped into "no engines" by the media?
It wouldn't be the first time, nor the last time that statements are misinterpreted or changed ever so slightly, and then take on a life all of their own, becoming their own "truth".


Also, just over a year back, Deino posted some interesting construction on page 8 of this thread, that may have been mock-ups of components on a follow up carrier, or at least proof-of-concepts... I wonder if anything further has come out regarding this?
 

Grey Havoc

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kaiserbill said:
It appears China got an absolute bargain on this whole deal.
No doubt more than a few 'inducements' were received by various Ukrainian officials and politicos, but even so a bargain indeed.
 

sferrin

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Grey Havoc said:
kaiserbill said:
It appears China got an absolute bargain on this whole deal.
No doubt more than a few 'inducements' were received by various Ukrainian officials and politicos, but even so a bargain indeed.
Makes you wonder why the US just didn't outbid them.
 

Triton

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sferrin said:
Makes you wonder why the US just didn't outbid them.
Did the United States government ever try to buy the hulk of the Varyag? Would the American people have laughed off the Clinton Administration if they had wanted to buy the hulk of a Soviet Union aircraft carrier for $20 million? What possible reason could they give for the purchase? What was the scrap value of the hulk? Did United States intelligence know at the time that Agencia Turistica e Diversoes Chong Lot was a shell company and that plans to convert the hulk to a floating hotel and casino were entirely untrue?

In 1998, if anyone had said that the hulk of the aircraft carrier Varyag was in fact going to the People's Republic of China to be refurbished into a sea-going warship, most people would have dismissed you as both crazy and offensive. At the time, most of us were totally unaware of the fraud and corruption concerning the purchase of the Varyag hulk. Would anyone have wanted to sour the trading and political relationship between the People's Republic of China and the United State with such an outrageous theory? Hindsight is 20/20. The People's Republic of China perpetrated an elaborate fraud to deceive us.
 

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Cynically the development of carrier capabilities in China and to a lesser extent evolution golf capabilities in India are just what the Hawks and carrier salesmen wanted.
 

JFC Fuller

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Deino,

Five J-15 on the Lioaning is the most we have seen isn't it?
 

Deino

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Yes ... and I have to correct myself, there are even 7 visible on that image:

5 are on deck, 1 is being launched, 1 is on the elevator and there are also two Ka-28s or possibly Ka-31 and one Z-8/18 type helicopter.

Deino
 

sferrin

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Triton said:
sferrin said:
Makes you wonder why the US just didn't outbid them.
Did the United States government ever try to buy the hulk of the Varyag? Would the American people have laughed off the Clinton Administration if they had wanted to buy the hulk of a Soviet Union aircraft carrier for $20 million? What possible reason could they give for the purchase? What was the scrap value of the hulk? Did United States intelligence know at the time that Agencia Turistica e Diversoes Chong Lot was a shell company and that plans to convert the hulk to a floating hotel and casino were entirely untrue?

In 1998, if anyone had said that the hulk of the aircraft carrier Varyag was in fact going to the People's Republic of China to be refurbished into a sea-going warship, most people would have dismissed you as both crazy and offensive. At the time, most of us were totally unaware of the fraud and corruption concerning the purchase of the Varyag hulk. Would anyone have wanted to sour the trading and political relationship between the People's Republic of China and the United State with such an outrageous theory? Hindsight is 20/20. The People's Republic of China perpetrated an elaborate fraud to deceive us.
I can't speak for others but I know *I* sure as hell didn't believe they were going to make a casino out of it. Nope, doesn't seem like others were fooled either:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/sci.military.naval/china_carrier%22casino|sort:date/sci.military.naval/Krd2IXvVCJU/u2Bl8Fdmy_MJ
 

Deino

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And it all was only a CG !!! :-[ :-[

sorry guys but this photo is actually a CG done by 西葛西造舰, he has done alot of top of the class CGs of PLAN ships including 055 and future aircraft carrier. he has made a claim on weibo about this photo being his and that it was made in 2013.
(via yuxiaochen / SDF)

Deino
 

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VH

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The fact that after all these years Chinese observers must resort to CGI to show progress on the Chinese carrier program is a sad commentary on the state of PLAN carrier operations.
 

sferrin

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VH said:
The fact that after all these years Chinese observers must resort to CGI to show progress on the Chinese carrier program is a sad commentary on the state of PLAN carrier operations.
That sounds like wishful thinking there.
 

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http://www.nbcnews.com/news/china/china-holds-first-live-fire-drills-its-aircraft-carrier-n696801
 
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