Avempestad2

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
23 February 2021
Messages
7
Reaction score
5
Does anyone have a single bit of info about Chinese AAMs?

After a lot of research, the info i found is very little and not good enough to make an actual comparison with Russian, American or European missiles. To say the information is lackluster, would be a huge understatement.

I understand China is the most secretive nation, but even a single bit of info would be greatly appreciated and if possible a comparison with American/Russian/European missiles to see how it really would perform against some.
 
Does anyone have a single bit of info about Chinese AAMs?

Here is over a dozen bits of info about two Chinese AAMs...

OyT2388.jpeg

3-28.jpg
 
There's a fair amount of info around, but little operational use. On paper the PL-10 and PL-15 are fully competitive world class AAMs.

The PL-10 Seems like a cheap Alamo. The PL-15 seems like a good missile, but no one is sure about it, as it has been in literally no combat whatsoever.


Not sure, how you come to the conclusion, the PL-10 is "a cheap Alamo"?? First, the Alamo - from my understanding the R-27 - is a at best mediocre medium-range AAM with SARH, the PL-10 in contrast is a most modern IIR-guided short-range AAM. Even more both have very different configurations.

As such either your post includes a stupid typo - which in return leaves me unsure, what other Chinese AAM might be a cheap Alamo - or an even more stupid conclusion at all.

By the way, in my PLAAF book, there is at least a summary available (p. 107-113):



Harpia PLAAF AAMs.jpg
 
Last edited:
Not sure, how you come to the conclusion, the PL-10 is "a cheap Alamo"?? First, the Alamo - from my understanding the R-27 - is a at best mediocre medium-range AAM with SARH, the PL-10 in contrast is a most modern IIR-guided short-range AAM. Even more both have very different configurations.
R-27 existed in three versions:

* R-27R - semi-active radar homing
* R-27T - infrared homing
* R-27P - passive homing on enemy radar
 
Not sure, how you come to the conclusion, the PL-10 is "a cheap Alamo"?? First, the Alamo - from my understanding the R-27 - is a at best mediocre medium-range AAM with SARH, the PL-10 in contrast is a most modern IIR-guided short-range AAM. Even more both have very different configurations.
R-27 existed in three versions:

* R-27R - semi-active radar homing
* R-27T - infrared homing
* R-27P - passive homing on enemy radar


But is this relevant and how does even the R-27T makes the PL-10 a "cheap Alamo"??
It is either a plain stupid or at least ignorant comment. :mad:

Both are very different, for completely different roles and why cheap? This statement either implies again "a cheap copy" or even more a "cheap and as such worthless" product, which is both either stupid since wrong or at least no-one of us can know since barely anything is known on the PL-10.

PL-10:

PL-10 blue - XXXL.jpg

R-27T

1616509208111.png
 
But is this relevant and how does even the R-27T makes the PL-10 a "cheap Alamo"??
It is either a plain stupid or at least ignorant comment.

Generally because Chinese AAM and SAM technology is still mostly inferior to our Russian top-class examples (otherwise Chinese would not be so interested into obtaining our system like S-400). But I should note, that those two missiles are of different class. R-27 is a family of medium-to-long range missiles, with limited high-g , but wide-angle seekers (110 degrees of boresight) and great sensor capabilities. PL-10 is a short-range, dogfight missile, with a high-g (up to 60g ) but limited range and less capable seekers.

Essentially, the comparison of those two weapons are incorrect. PL-10 is the analogue of our smaller R-73 (AA-11 Archer) missiles.
 

Generally because Chinese AAM and SAM technology is still mostly inferior to our Russian top-class examples (otherwise Chinese would not be so interested into obtaining our system like S-400).

I'm not sure if this is a valid conclusion! To think the purchase of S400 or similar the Su-35 is proof or even a hint that the own systems are "still mostly inferior".
There could be several more reason be mentioned which would also explain such a deal without THIS conclusion.
 
I'm not sure if this is a valid conclusion! To think the purchase of S400 or similar the Su-35 is proof or even a hint that the own systems are "still mostly inferior".
There could be several more reason be mentioned which would also explain such a deal without THIS conclusion.

Well, the fact is, that China still have a problems with jet engines, rockets, and electronics. For example, their own jet engines is still not up to Russian-delivered ones. Their air defense technology is still not up to date, too. The last batch of S-400 SAM were send to China in 2019.
 
There is absolutely no reason to suggest a linkage between any Chinese AAM and the R-27 (ALAMO) so where did this observation spring from? R-27 was essentially obsolete by the time China got hold of any and they already had a similar missile, PL-11.

The PL-11 was a copy of the Italian AIM-7 derivative "Aspide" AAM and sometimes incorrectly identified as PL-10. PL-12 was a new designed medium range AAM in the AIM-120 / R-77 class which replaced it. PL-15 is a new missile succeeding PL-12.

PL-10 is a brand new short range AAM design similar to IRIS-T or the Japanese AAM-5 with an advanced imaging infra-red seeker.
 
You means R-74M2?
Same missile
In development the designation is normally K- and production missiles are designated R-. Initially the numbers also differed (K-13 was put into production as R-3) but more recently the number has been the same. K-23/R-23, K-27/R-27, K-77/R-77 etc.
 
Good to see little to no unwarranted cynicism here. It'd be different if we were talking about ruskie equipment :^)
 
Of all the hot take accusatory comparisons to make for PL-10, R-27 is a surprise.

I would have thought R-73, IRIS-T, ASRAAM, AAM-5, or A-Darter would all have been better candidates.
 
You means R-74M2?
Same missile
In development the designation is normally K- and production missiles are designated R-. Initially the numbers also differed (K-13 was put into production as R-3) but more recently the number has been the same. K-23/R-23, K-27/R-27, K-77/R-77 etc.
Almost) K is production index. It doesn't disappear after missile becomes serial, but isn't used operationally.
 
You means R-74M2?
Same missile
In development the designation is normally K- and production missiles are designated R-. Initially the numbers also differed (K-13 was put into production as R-3) but more recently the number has been the same. K-23/R-23, K-27/R-27, K-77/R-77 etc.
Almost) K is production index. It doesn't disappear after missile becomes serial, but isn't used operationally.
Exactly. The Soviet system used a myriad of designators in different contexts so one thing has an OKB designation, a factory designation, an operational designation... I assume for security.
 
Back to the Chinese AAMs, the chief designer of the PL-10 (and PL-12) says they are on a par with similar weapons in service in the West e.g. AIM-9X, IRIS-T, AIM-120.

Reports that the PL-12 uses the R-77 seeker are incorrect. China did work with AGAT in the early stages of PL-12 development but soon realised that the capabilities they wanted were beyond the capabilities of the existing seeker, and to reach their goal of a world class missile would require indigenous seeker development.
 
Measurement and Control Technology Forum, Volume 38, Issue 3, 2019

Liang Xiaogeng, Chief Designer of PL-10E Air-to-Air Missile

The test and development history of the PL-10E air-to-air missile and future development outlook

Liang Xiaogeng

1 New type of air-to-space combat missile "PL-10E"

"PL-10E" is the main close combat weapon of the fourth-generation fighter. Its high maneuverability and large overload characteristics enable the missile to be quick and flexible. Maneuvering and turning live, in actual combat, it is difficult to rely on the locked fighters. The regular action escapes its lock. In terms of maneuverability alone, "PL-10E" It has surpassed the most advanced Sidewinder "AIM-9X" currently in the United States. "PL-10E" also uses infrared surface imaging technology, which has very good anti-jamming ability, ordinary infrared decoy bombs can't do much to it effect. It is also a weapon to restrain the fourth-generation stealth fighter. "High mobility, the 12 words "wide angle, anti-stealth, anti-interference" can be highly summarized "PL-10E".

2 History of missile development

The development of China’s air-to-air missiles to today has gone through many arduous journeys. After coming over, the entire development team was on the basis of being poor and white. A lot of hard work has been carried out. On the Gobi Desert, walk for seven days The developed products are sent to the Gobi Desert for testing, and the outdoor accommodation environment is also Very poor, can only live in a land half under the sand and half on the ground In the den, especially in the very cold winter, the mountains are covered by heavy snow, Food is also very scarce. After all, the experiment has success and failure. These failures, sometimes even It will bring great danger, once, a test bomb failed to hit he target plane flew for tens of kilometers and landed in the original Halosuo forest. Fortunately, after only four or five hours of searching, I found this missile. Its warhead did not explode, but the bomb has been broken into three pieces. In order to find the problem, the bomb must be disassembled, but the safety of this missile The device has been released from the guarantee and is in a state of being ready at any time. In order to avoid personnel casualties, I led two comrades to use the cutting rope to fight the missile on the spot. Detonate the cutting between the bucket and the fuze, but the fire head connecting the detonator is broken Need to short-circuit it as soon as possible, just like an EOD, cut off the lead The ignition head of the wire and short-circuit detonator, after confirming that there is no danger, Only allow other personnel to find the problem. It’s so hard Under the conditions, risking their lives to remove obstacles and eliminate difficulties in development Difficulties and dangers finally made our missile finalized as soon as possible.

On this basis, lead the team to continue to carry forward the talents of the Chinese Zhi, it took more than ten years to develop the fourth-generation radar-based navigation It took another ten years to develop the AIM-9X The level is comparable, and some indicators even exceed its fourth-generation close combat Air-to-air missiles. Our new fighter plane is equipped with these advanced fourth.

Editor’s note: With the debut of China’s fourth-generation air-to-air missile at the air show, the Pili-10E Type air-to-air missiles have become the focus of much attention. For decades, China was empty Missile technology has evolved from being a poor one to a world where it is today ranked in the forefront of the world. This issue Interviewed General Manager Liang Xiaogeng on the test and development process of the Pili-10E air-to-air missile Accountant, this article is organized according to the interview.

The next generation of missiles has the ability to contend with the surrounding powerful enemies. Our missiles can not only equip our own fighters, but also keep exporting. In recent years our missiles have been sold to friendly to us country, and has formed a certain sales output value, indicating that our weapons still has a certain status in the international arena. Our Type 1 missile, export go abroad and compete with foreign missiles on the same platform. More than a dozen missiles abroad In the absence of a hit, our missile fired a hit and won the country. Highly praised by foreign experts.

3 How does it test

In an age of peace, our weapons rarely have the opportunity to be in actual combat To be tested. In fact, the missile’s test needs to pass many aspects. What can be done: First of all, on the ground, the missile system needs to conduct various simulation tests.
Tests, such as static and dynamic tests, various environmental tests, digital simulations, Hardware-in-the-loop simulation, these simulations are required in various complex environments, various Under the conditions of confrontation; secondly, a large number of hang-flies in the air are required.

Collect data on the interaction between various backgrounds and targets, and then proceed Design and evaluation, not only in the process of flying or live ammunition target testing Bombs, while fighting against cloud backgrounds and ground object backgrounds. In this kind of complex In the anti-condition, to assess the various performance of the missile. The application of dynamic testing technology in missile system testing can have effectively analyze, evaluate and verify the performance of the missile guidance and control system Wait. With the semiphysical simulation capabilities of dynamic testing technology, Only the performance of missile hardware products can be comprehensively evaluated. Based on the results of the dynamic test, you can also comprehensively evaluate and customize the guidance control The dynamic quality of the system, as well as the missile trajectory quality and guidance accuracy
and other comprehensive performance indicators. For example, the use of infrared air-to-air missile guidance based on distributed simulation system the dynamic test method and system composition of the system, complete the various sections of the missile and Real-time dynamic simulation test of the guidance and control system, and constitute a set of simulation, the missile guidance and control system integrates analysis, modeling, and visualization in real-time, Distributed semi-physical dynamic simulation system. If you use this dynamic test technology for systematic testing can greatly improve the efficiency of the test and accuracy, using the multiple simulation combination capabilities of this dynamic testing technology, It can also greatly reduce labor and development costs, and reduce its impact on hardware production. Product dependence, and can effectively reduce the need for missile hardware products and testing The use and consumption of gas and energy in the process.

4 The future development of air-to-air missiles

Will the fourth-generation air-to-air missiles in the future have a longer range and fight What's the bigger direction of the ministry? In the long run, this might bea development trend. Because if you use radar-guided mid-range missiles can escape from outside the attack zone and shoot at the enemy fighter plane, and the opponent will turn around in an emergency maneuver. It is possible to escape; but at this time, let the infrared guided missile with a longer range be launched creates the possibility of attack: once the opponent’s fighter turns around, it has infrared the characteristic engine nozzles are exposed, and infrared guided missiles are used at this time
attacking has a unique advantage. At present, the fifth-generation air-to-air missile has no clear structure internationally. Frame, because what the future model of air combat might look like is that every country There is no conclusion yet. The development trend of the fifth-generation air-to-air missile is still to be progressed One-step research and observation. In the future, air-to-air missiles may "go up to the sky, To the ground”, but also have the ability to strike clusters, hypersonic targets, and proximity The ability of space targets.

5 Will it decline as a close combat bomb?

With the advancement of technology, such as "AIM-120D" in the United States, my country "SD-10" and European "Meteor" and other medium-range, long-range and even super Long-range air-to-air missiles have continued to emerge. The attack range of these missiles
Farther, it can conduct attacks other than close-range bombs under the guidance of radar. So in this case, some people ask questions, close combat bombs are like the infantry is still equipped with bayonets, but when it comes to actual combat, the main weapon used is a rifle with a longer range. The bayonet is only used in it is only used in some special circumstances. So close combat bombs will be used in air combat in the future In the game, will he have almost no chance to play like a bayonet?

In this regard, there are two points that need to be paid attention to: Under interference, in the air combat between fighters, the aircraft radar cannot Effectively play its due role, not to mention stable capture at long distances Acquire and track targets and direct medium and long-range air-to-air missiles to lock targets, including The missile’s own communication link and radar seeker will also be suppressed by interference. Can’t work effectively; in this case, the importance of close-range combat bullets, And the frequency and breadth of use in the future, obviously you cannot simply use a bayonet metaphor of the situation. The second is, for the next four generations of stealth fighters air combat, whether it’s an airborne radar or a missile using a radar seeker, when detecting fourth-generation stealth aircraft, the range of its radar perception will be extremely

The test development history and future development prospects of the Jili-10E air-to-air missile ·3· The earth is compressed. May I ask, in actual combat, the compressed distance is compared with missiles and long-range missiles, how many advantages can close combat bombs have? what In some extreme cases, the effective use distance of a medium-range projectile may be close combat ammunition is almost the same, or even unusable. The final fight should be It can only be carried out close to the fighting shell.

In summary, close-range combat bullets it will still be useful for a certain period of time in the future.

6 Can it be changed to a medium-range bullet?

In actual combat situations, the limit range of a medium-range missile is like the limit mileage of electric cars, basically it will not be used. Although "PL-10E" is also called a close-range fighting bomb, its range has already exceeded out of a traditional close-range combat missile, and it is close to a medium-range missile, it is fully equipped the potential to develop into a medium-range missile. Of course, if you want something like "PL-10E" such an infrared-guided short-range missile has a longer range, and it needs to be solved.
Resolve some technical issues, such as drag reduction shape, dynamic range, accuracy high medium guidance system, etc. It’s easy to say, but there are some key points.

Technical issues: First, autonomous interference/target recognition of infrared seekers, Locking function, intelligent design is indispensable; the second is that the missile is in When launching, it is in an unlocked target state, and a more accurate medium is required.

The guidance system relies on the speed of the fighter to transmit the target to it before locking the target. To adjust the missile’s flight direction and attitude Wait until the target is locked and destroyed.
The picture shows the wing layout of the PL-10E missile

7 Its expansion space

Does "PL-10E" have a bigger room for expansion? answer Yes, the "PL-10E" close-range fighting bomb is still very square to extend downwards. Convenient. Its infrared seeker is different from radar guidance. It controls the fire of fighter aircraft. The dependence of the system is relatively small. In other words, not only the fourth generation machine, that is it is a third-generation aircraft or other models, as long as the fire control system is compatible with the "PL-10E" Launching "Language Communication" can be used effectively. Not just a fighter plane The problem of fighting bullets. The fourth-generation fighting ammunition has good performance, as long as Appropriate improvement can derive a medium/short range with superior performance Surface-to-air missiles, ship-to-air missiles, etc. If you add one to this type of missile with a booster, its range can be further increased, and make surface-to-air missiles, ship-to-air missiles, etc. also have anti-jamming and anti-stealth capabilities force. It can be seen that with the successful development of "PL-10E", the exhibition space is extremely impressive.


8 A Soldier Who Fell Without Fighting

In the traditional concept of some people, the weakest position of the tank is the track belt, but it’s not, I think it’s a barrel. If you develop it, you can score with the miniaturized ammunition of the tank's barrel, the tank is useless. China hair Exhibiting equipment is not to fight with anyone, but to achieve "no war the purpose of the “Quren’s Soldier”. When we develop equipment, we cannot fully follow follow the development thinking of Western military powers. What everyone can think of, but in order to research, but also have some asymmetric thinking, develop some "one tricks"a big killer to control the enemy.

About the Author

Liang Xiaogeng, currently the chief expert and PhD of "Weapon Guidance and Control Technology" in the aviation industry Student mentor. Has presided over and participated in the overall design and guidance and control of various types of missiles System development work. Pioneering completion of the research on multi-element/imaging infrared guided missiles Developed and realized the leap from the third generation to the fourth generation of close-range combat missiles. Issued in recent years Wrote more than 70 papers, research reports, etc., and wrote 2 monographs, which were issued by China has 17 patents.
 
While surfing around, found this very interesting article on chinese earlier AAM development.
Also this on PL-9. I didn't realized until now that PL-9 is a sort of indigenized PL-8 to get around export restrictions of the PL-8.
And more
PS: You can put various PILI designations in the search box, there are even more articles than the above.
 
Last edited:
I just cannot get over how big the PL-17 missile is GTX, the only other missile that comes close is the Novator KS-172 that they were trying to get produced for the Russian VKS but they failed.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom