Chengdu / PAIC FC-1 JF-17 and Grumman Super 7

[siegecrossbow]

Let's hope for him that he didn't just to be atrociously quarantined...

Worst case scenario could be 28 days but since they are on official business maybe a “bubble environment” could be made aka Winter Olympics.

That said I think the primary hurdle to the deal might be the engine. I wonder whether CAASTA applies to sub components like engines. If I recall correctly Argentina was very against the Russian invasion of Ukraine and voted accordingly in UN.

P.S. Found the original source. They are in quarantine and nothing is settled yet. Still need congressional approval for funding.

Una comitiva de la Fuerza Aérea Argentina visita China para evaluar al JF-17 Thunder

Luego de varias semanas, e incluso meses, sin mayores novedades sobre la selección del futuro cazabombardero para la Fuerza Aérea Argentina (FAA), han

www.zona-militar.com

 

[Roland55]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1523991328807428097

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/LiaWongOSINT/status/1523991328807428097


An Argentine has travelled to China to take a closer look at the JF-17 program.

Its a commission composed by pilots and technical personnel, they were meant to evaluate the aircraft last year, but Covid delayed that matter. So...yeah, the evaluation is being done now.

Whoops, I meant to say that an Argentine delegation went to China, must have typed it too fast.

Unless the Chinese offer a very attractive financing plan in order to secure the contract, I don't see how Argentina can afford it. I think this aircraft is the best compromise for Argentina, its performance is a bit inferior compared to the jets they had, but still far better than a simple armed trainer.

It certainly can be afforded (the x4 french OPV deal being paid on time with little issues) but i must say they are analyzing every option they have "on the table" whether it is the JF-17, the Tejas, Kfir (yes, it came up again) F-16..etc..etc.

Its performance is...well nothing spectacular but also not bad, probably the standard for an aircraft of its class, supersonic, AESA radar, BVR capable, smart munitions..etc. We'll see what gets out of this (maybe they buy it, maybe not)

 

[TandemHEAT]

Would they even be be able to buy the Tejas due to it having several British made components? I know HAL said that they would replace some British made parts with suitable alternatives, but I'm not so sure that they are capable of doing that.

 

[helmutkohl]

Would they even be be able to buy the Tejas due to it having several British made components? I know HAL said that they would replace some British made parts with suitable alternatives, but I'm not so sure that they are capable of doing that.

its a very valid point.
the KAI's sale of FA-50s to Argentina failed because I think the ejection seat is British.
I expect the Tejas to have more British components no?

 

[alberchico]

Would they even be be able to buy the Tejas due to it having several British made components? I know HAL said that they would replace some British made parts with suitable alternatives, but I'm not so sure that they are capable of doing that.

its a very valid point.
the KAI's sale of FA-50s to Argentina failed because I think the ejection seat is British.
I expect the Tejas to have more British components no?

I think the question of providing adequate technical support would also be an issue for the Tejas. At least China has sold jets like the K-8 to neighboring countries like Bolivia and Venezuela, along with the larger Y-8 transport, so they already have a presence in Latin America.

 

[FighterJock]

Would they even be be able to buy the Tejas due to it having several British made components? I know HAL said that they would replace some British made parts with suitable alternatives, but I'm not so sure that they are capable of doing that.

its a very valid point.
the KAI's sale of FA-50s to Argentina failed because I think the ejection seat is British.
I expect the Tejas to have more British components no?

That was the same problem that Argentina faced with the Gripen when they tried to buy it as well, a lot of the components were British too. The only fighter left that I can think of that would be suitable for Argentina would be the Chengdu J-10.

 

[Roland55]

Would they even be be able to buy the Tejas due to it having several British made components? I know HAL said that they would replace some British made parts with suitable alternatives, but I'm not so sure that they are capable of doing that.

As far as i know, its possible, contrary to the case of the FA-50...the Tejas lacks any major components made by Uk-owned companies (HAL mentioned 50 individual components, highlighting the seat, refueling probe, radar radome, and some valves, its all pretty minor and replaceable), with the FA-50 the FBW computer, and other major parts were compromised.

Probably not HAL, but IAI or any other company associated with HAL could do said work.

Would they even be be able to buy the Tejas due to it having several British made components? I know HAL said that they would replace some British made parts with suitable alternatives, but I'm not so sure that they are capable of doing that.

its a very valid point.
the KAI's sale of FA-50s to Argentina failed because I think the ejection seat is British.
I expect the Tejas to have more British components no?

I think the question of providing adequate technical support would also be an issue for the Tejas. At least China has sold jets like the K-8 to neighboring countries like Bolivia and Venezuela, along with the larger Y-8 transport, so they already have a presence in Latin America.

Service its gonna be done at AMACUAR (FAA's center of maintenance) indistinct of the aircraft origin, i do wonder if the indians will manage to get a good service support regarding a possible sale to LATAM though.

As for the K-8s...the Bolivian experience was not that great, in fact..most chinese equipment did poor in LATAM, maybe the JF-17 is a different case...who knows?

 

[helmutkohl]

Would they even be be able to buy the Tejas due to it having several British made components? I know HAL said that they would replace some British made parts with suitable alternatives, but I'm not so sure that they are capable of doing that.

its a very valid point.
the KAI's sale of FA-50s to Argentina failed because I think the ejection seat is British.
I expect the Tejas to have more British components no?

I think the question of providing adequate technical support would also be an issue for the Tejas. At least China has sold jets like the K-8 to neighboring countries like Bolivia and Venezuela, along with the larger Y-8 transport, so they already have a presence in Latin America.

I think some LatAm countries operate Indian helicopters no?
but IRC, Colombia? or was it Ecuador or Peru? had very bad experiences with them.

 

[TandemHEAT]

Would they even be be able to buy the Tejas due to it having several British made components? I know HAL said that they would replace some British made parts with suitable alternatives, but I'm not so sure that they are capable of doing that.

its a very valid point.
the KAI's sale of FA-50s to Argentina failed because I think the ejection seat is British.
I expect the Tejas to have more British components no?

I think the question of providing adequate technical support would also be an issue for the Tejas. At least China has sold jets like the K-8 to neighboring countries like Bolivia and Venezuela, along with the larger Y-8 transport, so they already have a presence in Latin America.

I think some LatAm countries operate Indian helicopters no?
but IRC, Colombia? or was it Ecuador or Peru? had very bad experiences with them.

It was Ecuador, and yes they retired them very early.

 

[aonestudio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1528233473961607168

View: https://twitter.com/alert5/status/1528233473961607168

 

[TandemHEAT]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1528233473961607168

View: https://twitter.com/alert5/status/1528233473961607168

Really does seem like they are going to get it. If they do buy it, I wonder what weapons they will buy along side it.

 

[TomcatViP]

Having visited Pakistan and China, is Argentina ready to buy the JF-17 jet?

Here's what we know about Argentina's progress so far in acquiring the JF-17 fighter, and its related goals for supporting local industry.

www.defensenews.com

 

[kaiserd]

Appears Argentina in no rush with any immediate plans, possibly involving the JF-17, abandoned.

Chinese fighter jets’ South America hopes grounded by Argentina U-turn

China’s FC-1/JF-17 ‘Thunder’ multi-role fighter aircraft, jointly produced with Pakistan, is believed to have been a top contender in US$664 million plan.

www.scmp.com

 

[alberchico]

Considering that this aircraft still uses a Russian engine, would Argentina have run afoul of the Counter America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act had they purchased it ? I believe that's why countries like Egypt and Indonesia have not made any recent Russian arms purchases.

 

[FighterJock]

Considering that this aircraft still uses a Russian engine, would Argentina have run afoul of the Counter America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act had they purchased it ? I believe that's why countries like Egypt and Indonesia have not made any recent Russian arms purchases.

Would it be possible to retrofit the Chinese WS-15 engine to the JF-17? That would help with any problems with sanctions concerning the Russian engines.

 

[Topi]

Considering that this aircraft still uses a Russian engine, would Argentina have run afoul of the Counter America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act had they purchased it ? I believe that's why countries like Egypt and Indonesia have not made any recent Russian arms purchases.

Would it be possible to retrofit the Chinese WS-15 engine to the JF-17? That would help with any problems with sanctions concerning the Russian engines.

WS-15 is a large afterburning turbofan with over 10 kN dry and over 16 kN afterburning thrust for the J-20. It would be far too much for the JF-17 to handle both in size and in its power. However, WS-13, which is planned for the J-31, would most likely be a suitable engine for the JF-17.

 

[FighterJock]

WS-15 is a large afterburning turbofan with over 10 kN dry and over 16 kN afterburning thrust for the J-20. It would be far too much for the JF-17 to handle both in size and in its power. However, WS-13, which is planned for the J-31, would most likely be a suitable engine for the JF-17.

Thanks Topi, I did not realise that the WS-15 would be too big for the JF-17, however as you rightly say the WS-13 would make a great alternative to the existing Russian engine. It would be highly likely that the engine of choice would probably be the latest WS-13E.

 

[TomcatViP]

And what was forseen is just happening. If that's true, shame is on us.

French news site Intelligence Online reported in November 2022 that Argentina-based Chinese Communist Party (CCP) official Shuiping Tu had achieved a breakthrough with local officials in the Tierra del Fuego province for a new naval base that would enable the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Navy to control a critical passage connecting the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.

US Convincing UK To Approve F-16 Fighters To Argentina Amid Reports Of Chinese Military Base In South America

China is allegedly making behind-the-scenes moves in Argentina to secure permission for establishing a new naval base in the city of Ushuaia, Tierra del Fuego province, which would effectively grant Beijing access to Antarctica.

eurasiantimes.com

I am not sure if ppl realize the horrendous death and suffering that retaking a Chinese controlled Tierra del fuego would be. Well, Argentinian and British Marines know too well...

 

[aonestudio]

Argentina is considering procurement of JF-17 fighter jets: embassy - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3213774/argentina-revives-possibility-chinese-fighter-jet-purchase-renewing-beijings-hopes-jf-17-south

 

[alberchico]

As someone who closely follows the economic situation in Argentina, right now their finances are in such bad shape there is no way they can procure a batch of fighter jets. Unless the Chinese are willing to offer these aircraft under very favorable terms in hope of securing further business in the future, I just can't see this deal happening. For those who don't know, they currently have inflation levels surpassing 102% with more than 40% of the country below the poverty line and climbing.

 

[FighterJock]

As someone who closely follows the economic situation in Argentina, right now their finances are in such bad shape there is no way they can procure a batch of fighter jets. Unless the Chinese are willing to offer these aircraft under very favorable terms in hope of securing further business in the future, I just can't see this deal happening. For those who don't know, they currently have inflation levels surpassing 102% with more than 40% of the country below the poverty line and climbing.

I did not realise that Argentina’s economy was in that bad state, looks highly unlikely that they would be shopping for new fighters any time soon.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

As far as i know, its possible, contrary to the case of the FA-50...the Tejas lacks any major components made by Uk-owned companies (HAL mentioned 50 individual components, highlighting the seat, refueling probe, radar radome, and some valves, its all pretty minor and replaceable), with the FA-50 the FBW computer, and other major parts were compromised.

Where are you getting this from? KAI's deal with Argentina broke down due to six British components, of which the ejection seat was the most critical. KAI already uses their own mission computer in the FA-50 and has developed their own FBW using T-50. India allegedly offered to change the ejection seat into a Russian model, which is still left to be seen. Any problem the FA-50 has with British components is shared by Tejas.

 

[Roland55]

Where are you getting this from? KAI's deal with Argentina broke down due to six British components, of which the ejection seat was the most critical. KAI already uses their own mission computer in the FA-50 and has developed their own FBW using T-50. India allegedly offered to change the ejection seat into a Russian model, which is still left to be seen. Any problem the FA-50 has with British components is shared by Tejas.

As far as it was expressed not only by the argentine defense media but the MoD, during the time of the deal, KAI simply couldnt replace the components in question. Not really the same case for HAL and the tejas.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

As far as it was expressed not only by the argentine defense media but the MoD, during the time of the deal, KAI simply couldnt replace the components in question. Not really the same case for HAL and the tejas.

Like I've said, where you're getting those exact components to call them "not replaceable, unlike Tejas" are questionable, since one of those components you've mentioned, the FLCS computer, is not British. Apart from the ejection seat, it was not openly listed what the other 5 critical components are. Other known T-50 series components supplied by British suppliers like BAES are mostly glass cockpit/pilot interface components and IFF which, going by your standards, are also "minor and replaceable" since there are several other US and European vendors offering equivalent components. If anything, those components are more replaceable than an ejection seat at the very least.

Also, like I've said already, HAL is yet to demonstrate a Tejas with alternative seat sourced from Russia, regardless of whay you want to believe. Go read some actually reliable reports before making dubious claims based on questionable sources and double standards. Ejection seat being a critical component applies equally for Tejas as it does to FA-50.

The problem with a possbile sale to Argentina is a question of sales margin compared to the cost of designing and certifying a configuration specific for Argentinian Air Force, not if the components are replaceable or not, as you are implying. Changing the ejection seat alone would require significant recertification process coupled with possible redesign of the cockpit layout and certainly of the ejection sequence, and the manufacturers would need to start again from sled tests before any implementation to the actual cockpit of the aircraft.

 

[Deino]

As far as it was expressed not only by the argentine defense media but the MoD, during the time of the deal, KAI simply couldnt replace the components in question. Not really the same case for HAL and the tejas.

Sorry to be so rude, but these claims are made solely by the Indian media and the Argentinian minister of defence who makes some final political PR stunts before he retires, well knowing that the Air Force has NO interest at all in the Tejas - just go out and ask some related to the AF and media in Argentina - and concerning helicopters, there is again no requirement, no many and no interest at all.

As such, simply forget what an old man says to get some media attention, nothing more.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

@Deino Having been thinking about this for a while, do you know if there's been any concurrent offers from Guizhou or Hongdu regarding the sales of their own LCA variant aircraft to Argentina? Considering how deep the Argentinian pocket is, I've thought that maybe they'll want something even cheaper than the JF-17 but I have found no reports on any such bids.

Maybe I'm just thinking this since I don't really understand the Chinese process of theirs defence contrators bidding in international tenders all that well, though I do observe that AVIC seems to facilitate and choose a single representative bidder instead of letting all of these manufacturers like CAC, GAC and HAIG compete against one another.

 

[Ainen]

Having been thinking about this for a while, do you know if there's been any concurrent offers from Guizhou or Hongdu regarding the sales of their own LCA variant aircraft to Argentina? Considering how deep the Argentinian pocket is, I've thought that maybe they'll want something even cheaper than the JF-17 but I have found no reports on any such bids.

Maybe I'm just thinking this since I don't really understand the Chinese process of theirs defence contrators bidding in international tenders all that well, though I do observe that AVIC seems to facilitate and choose a single representative bidder instead of letting all of these manufacturers like CAC, GAC and HAIG compete against one another.

Are there any cheaper modern fighters in the first place?
Combat LIFTs are both more expensive and lesser fighters.

 

[snne]

Are there any cheaper modern fighters in the first place?
Combat LIFTs are both more expensive and lesser fighters.

Chinese have multiple aircraft such as JL-9, JL-10 and K-8NG though I don't know if K-8 production still continues.

 

[Roland55]

Like I've said, where you're getting those exact components to call them "not replaceable, unlike Tejas" are questionable, since one of those components you've mentioned, the FLCS computer, is not British. Apart from the ejection seat, it was not openly listed what the other 5 critical components are. Other known T-50 series components supplied by British suppliers like BAES are mostly glass cockpit/pilot interface components and IFF which, going by your standards, are also "minor and replaceable" since there are several other US and European vendors offering equivalent components. If anything, those components are more replaceable than an ejection seat at the very least.

Also, like I've said already, HAL is yet to demonstrate a Tejas with alternative seat sourced from Russia, regardless of whay you want to believe. Go read some actually reliable reports before making dubious claims based on questionable sources and double standards. Ejection seat being a critical component applies equally for Tejas as it does to FA-50.

So, what our MoD said or KAI comunicating they werent able to find a solution for the components is dubious? Ok.

The problem with a possbile sale to Argentina is a question of sales margin compared to the cost of designing and certifying a configuration specific for Argentinian Air Force, not if the components are replaceable or not, as you are implying. Changing the ejection seat alone would require significant recertification process coupled with possible redesign of the cockpit layout and certainly of the ejection sequence, and the manufacturers would need to start again from sled tests before any implementation to the actual cockpit of the aircraft.

It can be done, we did it with the Pucara and the Pampa (almost twice) im not undermining the work that ir requires, but its not imposible.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Are there any cheaper modern fighters in the first place?
Combat LIFTs are both more expensive and lesser fighters.

FTC-2000G and L-15B exists, hence the reason I've asked Deino if he knows if Guizhou (manufacturer of JL-9/FTC-2000 variants) or Hongdu (manufacturer of JL-10/L-15 variants) offered anything concerning the Argentinian bid.

As for the L-15B, it is known to be designed to be equipped with afterburning turbofan from Ukraine/China and there have been news reports about a contract being signed between HAIG and Motor Sich for the supplying of afterburning variants of the AI-222 (once in 2011 for the supply of AI-222K-25F and another in 2016 for AI-322F), but to my knowledge there hasn't been actual implementation of an afterburning engine for the production aircraft. The only example of L-15 equipped with an afterburner that I know is one owned by AVIC with a tailnumber "06", which has been seen flying with the WS-17.

JL-9 and as an extent FTC-2000G is powered by WP-13 variant and although there has been some news about an upgraded engine that can fit the WP-13 powered aircraft called the WP-14, if the Chinese are still pursuing the development of this engine remains to be seen.

Chinese have multiple aircraft such as JL-9, JL-10 and K-8NG though I don't know if K-8 production still continues.

Since K-8NG has only been revealed a couple of years ago, I do think that it is still on offer for international customers.

 

[Roland55]

Sorry to be so rude, but these claims are made solely by the Indian media and the Argentinian minister of defence who makes some final political PR stunts before he retires, well knowing that the Air Force has NO interest at all in the Tejas - just go out and ask some related to the AF and media in Argentina - and concerning helicopters, there is again no requirement, no many and no interest at all.

As such, simply forget what an old man says to get some media attention, nothing more.

Does it "sound" like i was saying "the Tejas is the plane the FAA wanted"? Sorry if it did, but that was not my point.

I don't know if i said it before, but nor the Tejas, FA-50 or the JF-17 is what the FAA truly wants...that's the F-16.

I agree this is mostly a PR stunt by the Argentine Minister, specially when asked about when the decision of the the purchase, he claims that its going to be in a few months...and in a few months we got elections...so yeah, this adm is not gonna purchase anything, just buying time.

 

[PDMODE]

Does anyone interested in some JF17's close view picture, which were been take in the Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics. If anyone be interested about it I can post some.

 

[stealthflanker]

Does anyone interested in some JF17's close view picture, which were been take in the Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics. If anyone be interested about it I can post some.

Always welcome. feel free to post them, dont forget to watermark them.

 

[PDMODE]

Always welcome. feel free to post them, dont forget to watermark them.

Thanks and I will figure out the water print and send them a few days later Because I have no idea about how to add the watermark which can't be cover .

 

[PDMODE]

Jf17's photo, I was tired for add the watermark so I give up

 

[PDMODE]

Jf17's photo, I was tired for add the watermark so I give up

 

[TsrJoe]

Flight International, 18 July 1987

 

[Anduriel]

Pakistan signs largest ever fighter jet sale deal with Azerbaijan​

The deal for JF-17C Block-III fighter jets was signed for $1.6bn, including aircraft, training and ammunition, Pakistani media reported.

Pakistan signs largest ever fighter jet sale deal with Azerbaijan

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex signed largest export deal in Pakistan's history with Azerbaijan Air Force, Azernews reports.

www.azernews.az

Wonder how many of them Azerbaijan ordered? I expect 16-20. Maybe 24, but it's a stretch.

 

[FighterJock]

Probably enough for a single squadron so 20 to 24, with options for more in the future.

 

[snne]

They have been speculating this for years now. And apparently there is a huge corruption scandal going on so they might be trying to distract attention elsewhere. We should take this with a mountain of salt.