Chengdu/PAIC FC-1 JF-17 and Grumman Super 7

helmutkohl

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Still makes me sad the FA-50 Golden Eagle sale to Argentina didn't go through. weren't some of the UK parts replaceable with another alternative?

China now gonna take opportunity and promote the JF-17, and seems to be in competition with the MiG-35
 

stealthflanker

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Well, cant be helped.

Though i think JF-17 would still a pretty decent deal. Wide range of weapons and some advanced avionics.

Imagine if it comes with the LKF AESA radar. That would give Argentinian Air Force some edge over other South American Air Force.
 

Foo Fighter

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IF they can afford not only the airframes and spares but training too, which will need to be maintained. It is another sting in the PRC tail to push the US further into paranoia, much like the placing of nuclear strike assets in Cuba. Is this what the PRC intend? It would seem so, possibly in an alliance with other nations.

I did not mention another thought about this, a PRC response to intent from the UK to sail in international waters of the SCS. Would this mean backing the Argentine government if they can have bases in Argentina? Possibly subsidising the purchase of airframes and services?
 
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alberchico

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Argentina has been crippled financially by the pandemic, a smaller more affordable aircraft like the M-346FA would make much more sense, although I don't know if that jet also has UK components in it.

 

helmutkohl

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Argentina has been crippled financially by the pandemic, a smaller more affordable aircraft like the M-346FA would make much more sense, although I don't know if that jet also has UK components in it.

I wonder if it would be wiser for the UK to allow the ban to go through.
Allowing the Argentines to acquire the M-346 or the FA-50 would be much less of a threat to them, than if they're forced to buy JF-17s or MiG-35s which are definitely capable of carrying Ashms that could harm their ships.
 

kaiserd

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Considering that Argentina has waited/ have had to wait this long to really get back into the modern fighter “game” (and accepted a long and continuing capacity gap) it appears unlikely that they would opt for such sub-optimal options (both capability and geo-politically) as the JF-17 or MIG-29/35 variants, particularly given other more pressing priorities.
Seriously doubt Argentina remotely interested in aligning themselves with either China or Russia (which would really be the only types of scenarios where buying these aircraft would make any sense). Is Argentina remotely threatened by a neighbour? Has it really felt or been impacted by the absence of a modern fighter aircraft?
 

TomcatViP

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I think you are absolutely right and would see that as a catastrophic outcome.
Argentina has always felt related to Europe and is probably the country in South America with the strongest feeling for European heritage.
The ill advised policy of banning Argentina to get fighter jets because 40 years ago Britain went to a bloody war with them would be as if 1980's Britain would have cancelled the Tornado program and early EAP studies because Germany was made a partner.
Not my intend to be moralistic toward our UK friends but things have changed and today the tip of Argentina could be one of the hotly contested area of the map if we got involved in a serious war.

As written long ago, as soon as hostilities unfold, it's more than probable that the Panama canal would be unsafe for traffic, leaving, once South Argentina has been invaded in rapid surprise move, most of the transantlantic shipping toward the west coast (US) be done via railways.

First, the US railways service does not have the capacity today to absorb such traffic. Secondly in time of war no railway would be safe from long range targeting (see what the Houti can do in Saudia and project it with a peer opponents).
This will leave roads and cargo planes as the only mean to really transfer component from the east coast to the west where a big part of the war industry is hosted (say goodbye to any aspiring dream to build ships by assembling pre-manufactured components made in Europe or in various part of the US...).

Then the next best practical points to ship heavy industrial components by road or canal are Guatemala and possibly Nicaragua. The former would sadly be easily denied by militants. The latter being already (I won't explain that point).

Hence from Europe to the West coast, the only remaining shipping route would be the north Atlantic shipping routes with roads transportation following.
You don't have to be a Navy admiral to see that won't be very effective and that the Golden age of the US War industrial power would remain a thing of the past.

Then there is the supposed Argentina battlefield. Anyone who have read about the Malouines combat stories and know a bit of the topography of Southern Argentina, South of the Drake passage, will understand easily that the terrain is very difficult and would lead to massive casualties akin to WWI battles.

Hence, the image that we can easily project is that of a massive fight, ressource incentive in the north Atlantic, fixing a lot of allied Navies assets for a meager transformation of ressources and manufacturing output (the bottle neck of road traffic) with a bloody and demoralizing battle in the South (tip of Argentina).

Abandoning today Argentina strategic position for the idea that this country would jump as soon as it has modern fighter jets at the throat of posted Royal army soldiers in the Falkland is leasy and immoral for the future generations that, them, would have to bear the brunt of such fight.
 
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aonestudio

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Argentina and China signed deal for 20 FC-1 fighter aircraft in order to increase aerial capabilities of the Argentina. The move, which further raised tensions in the South Atlantic last night, follows a three-day visit by President Kristina de Kirchner to Beijing last week, in which Argentina secured 15 economic agreements and significant financial investment to bolster its failing economy.
 

Archibald

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Argentina and China signed deal for 20 FC-1 fighter aircraft in order to increase aerial capabilities of the Argentina. The move, which further raised tensions in the South Atlantic last night, follows a three-day visit by President Kristina de Kirchner to Beijing last week, in which Argentina secured 15 economic agreements and significant financial investment to bolster its failing economy.

Su-24 Fencers ? for Argentina ? wth. They are no interceptors and old stuff... as if they bought F-111s from USAF or Australia.
The chinese fighter at least makes some sense.
 

aonestudio

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Worst case scenario for Royal Navy.
JF-17 equipped with two CM-400AKG.

JF-17-CM-400AKG-01.jpg JF-17 Thunder Pakistan Air Force PAF C-802A Anti-ship Missile.jpg JF-17 Thunder H-4PGM.jpg
 

helmutkohl

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like I've said..
the British should have allowed the Golden Eagles to be exported. They have no AShM abilities and probably limited range.
instead it just pushed the Argentinians to a more significant threat.. both in the aircraft and in China's influence.
 

Mirage4000

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Argentina and China signed deal for 20 FC-1 fighter aircraft in order to increase aerial capabilities of the Argentina. The move, which further raised tensions in the South Atlantic last night, follows a three-day visit by President Kristina de Kirchner to Beijing last week, in which Argentina secured 15 economic agreements and significant financial investment to bolster its failing economy.

Su-24 Fencers ? for Argentina ? wth. They are no interceptors and old stuff... as if they bought F-111s from USAF or Australia.
The chinese fighter at least makes some sense.
Su-24 are attack aircraft unlikely Argentina will buy them, but the Su-24s are strikers with long range and air refueling capability able to launch antiship missiles.

So is not so crazy, but is highly unlikely they buy them
 

Mirage4000

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like I've said..
the British should have allowed the Golden Eagles to be exported. They have no AShM abilities and probably limited range.
instead it just pushed the Argentinians to a more significant threat.. both in the aircraft and in China's influence.
those are indian sources, Argentina has not bought them and it is not very likely they buy them they are broken and the reliability of the JF-17 will be low.

Argentina in my opinion will not fly Chinese aircraft, but will rely on Brazil for air defence they are broken
 

Hood

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Given the Argentine Air Force can't even keep its A-4ARs operational that were upgraded in-country, its open to question how long those JF-17s would remain serviceable when they are reliant on a whole host of spares (airframe, mechanical systems, avionics engine, weapon systems) from Chinese product support.

But yes, Golden Hawks might have been preferable to JF-17s from a UK MoD perspective. It probably was counter productive, but then we'll have to see what actually happens and if the deal goes through.
 

Mirage4000

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Given the Argentine Air Force can't even keep its A-4ARs operational that were upgraded in-country, its open to question how long those JF-17s would remain serviceable when they are reliant on a whole host of spares (airframe, mechanical systems, avionics engine, weapon systems) from Chinese product support.

But yes, Golden Hawks might have been preferable to JF-17s from a UK MoD perspective. It probably was counter productive, but then we'll have to see what actually happens and if the deal goes through.
they can not even buy their own IA-63, today they just adquire one

1624799737893.png

In my humble opinion they might buy old used F-18s from the USA with a minimun of basic weapons and old fuselages reducing its ability further.

Argentina has no ability to buy even aircraft they make, which should be much cheaper than the Chinese newer JF-17 plus Argentina will not get anything, no tech transfer, and only high price come on if they can not even buy IA-63s how on earth they will buy JF-17s that only will bring more sanctions for a jet with shaddy sales record?

I mean it will be at least 4 to 5 times more expensive than IA-63, the F-18 in my opinion is not even likely, in my opinion Argentina will not buy any aircraft in the next decade not russian not Chinese, but might buy American in 5 to 10 years just to have a token air force, perhaps French old Mirage 2000s or a few F-16s from Israel or an European user, they are broken.

I mean since 2009 to 2021 just 5 IA-63s were delivered, that is the level of ability they have it is apalling just 5 IA-63s in 12 years it is an IA-63 almost every 2.5 years
 
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aonestudio

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View: https://twitter.com/PSFAERO/status/1438814909526065152

 

helmutkohl

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^ in hindsight, the UK should have allowed the exports of some components that would have led to the approval of the Korean Golden Eagle sale to Argentina. its eagle is a lesser threat than the thunder to UK, and they likely wouldnt have any more budget for another combat aircraft after acquiring it.
 

stealthflanker

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I'm curious whether they'll get one with KLJ-7A AESA or opt for alternative LKF-601E.

Both seems to be comparable with AN/APG-83 and superior to APG-68. Also JF-17 have many weapon options including anti shipping missiles. I would say it's a good deal compared to FA-50.

Things remains to be seen tho on how Argentine intend to support this fighter. Selecting one which already been operated by Pakistani airforce might make things bit easier.
 

Blitzo

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12 JF-17 Block IIIs is not exactly a major threat to the Falklands or the UK in context of the overall strategic balance between the two nations.
It's a relatively complete light fighter with an AESA and depending on the weapons purchase, can certainly be a potent multirole aircraft with mature BVR and anti shipping capability, and given the large fleet of JF-17s that the PAF will operate (including a sizeable part being Block IIIs), there are upgrade spirals that I'm sure they can tap into if so desired.

Seems reasonable to me.
 

batigol

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This a *draft* budget proposal, very similar to the one that's been floated for the past decade promising ~$400m USD for 10-12 fighters, being floated by the government of a president that is two years from an election and dealing with one of the most acrimonious bouts of party in-fighting the country has ever seen.

Not to mention the defense budget in Argentina is currently at a paltry 0.7% of GDP, the lowest ever in its history. Don't hold your breath.
 

alberchico

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^ in hindsight, the UK should have allowed the exports of some components that would have led to the approval of the Korean Golden Eagle sale to Argentina. its eagle is a lesser threat than the thunder to UK, and they likely wouldnt have any more budget for another combat aircraft after acquiring it.

Keep in mind that the Falklands war was with a brutal military junta in power, but now with a democratic government there is essentially zero chance of another conflict erupting ever again. All the territorial claims that are often made are nothing more than empty populist rhetoric to keep the masses happy. So even if they had a squadron of J-10's there is no real threat to the Falkland islands.

I wonder if the Chinese might present Argentina with an offer that is too good to refuse in an attempt to break into the Latin American fighter market. They can certainly afford to lose money with one order in the hopes of generating others.
 

Roland55

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This a *draft* budget proposal, very similar to the one that's been floated for the past decade promising ~$400m USD for 10-12 fighters, being floated by the government of a president that is two years from an election and dealing with one of the most acrimonious bouts of party in-fighting the country has ever seen.

Not to mention the defense budget in Argentina is currently at a paltry 0.7% of GDP, the lowest ever in its history. Don't hold your breath.
There is a bit of a catch in that, usually the names in the budget list are generic, like "supersonic multirole fighter", is strange to see the name in detail unless its an operation that "has some work" behind it.

Like with most this budgets, there is not a lot of certainty in if its going to be executed or repurposed for another matter. We'll have to see...

In regards to the whole thing as "the quest for a modern combat aircraft" its just a political mess, where the main thing "holding it back" its interest by the current gov and kicking it forward for the next to solve (MM was close with the deal for the FA-50, but got discarded for obvious reasons..). So, the most probable outcome for this is that its going to wait..maybe more IA.63s would be finished to fill the void until a proper solution is worked out.
 

stealthflanker

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They still market that radar for JF-17 eh ?
I thought Pakistan already selected KLJ-7A for the latest version of JF-17.
 

Roland55

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1608736868322.png

last time it was presented in a mockup nose of the FC-1/JF-17
 

Blitzo

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That is from 2018, from memory.

Seems like they've bumped up the specs a bit (you can make out the numbers on the placard in the background), particularly in max A2A range, target tracking number, SAR resolution, and has bulked up a bit to 180kg

Also, it's now mounted on a rotating swashplate. Seems like a nice replacement for legacy mech scanned arrays.

lkf601e.jpg turntable.jpg
 

Roland55

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That is from 2018, from memory.

Seems like they've bumped up the specs a bit (you can make out the numbers on the placard in the background), particularly in max A2A range, target tracking number, SAR resolution, and has bulked up a bit to 180kg

Also, it's now mounted on a rotating swashplate. Seems like a nice replacement for legacy mech scanned arrays.

View attachment 665490View attachment 665491
Looks really clean and simple !
 

TMA1

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I wonder if the RD-93MA will supply substantially more power than earlier engines, in particular for the new active phased array radar. The Chinese and Pakistanis did a good job with this old program. It is becoming extremely feature rich, and nations wanting to buy the aircraft probably have a range of options. I wonder how much the block 3 variant will cost, though.
 

AN/AWW-14(V)

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Iraq Signs Contract with Pakistan for Purchase of JF-17 Block III Aircraft


Iraq has signed a contract with Pakistani company to purchase an unspecified number of aircraft, believed to be JF-17 Block III.
“We signed a contract with a Pakistani company to purchase aircraft……….,” Iraqi Defense Minister Jumaa Inad said in a January 30,2022 interview with Al-Arabiya without specifying the aircraft type or the number of units or its price.

Pakistan media had earlier reported that negotiations had been held between Islamabad and Baghdad for the latter to buy 12 JF-17s for an estimated $664 million.

The announcement of the contract preceded intense negotiations between both sides during 2020 and 2021.

Lieutenant General Juma Inad had earlier visited Pakistan in May 2021 during which he held meetings with Pakistani officials and discussed Iraq’s interest to buy JF-17 Thunder fighter jets.

This was followed up with a visit by Foreign Minister of Iraq Dr. Faud Hussein during August 2021 when he met with Minister of Defence Production of Pakistan, Mrs. Zobaida Jalal. The meeting with the minister of defence production could signal an intent to purchase the PAC JF-17 Thunder and/ or other defence equipment.

Pakistani publication, The Nation had reported on September 15, 2021 that negotiations between Pakistan and Iraq on fighter jets procurement were concluded during the visit of an Iraqi defence delegation led by Deputy Commander Iraqi Air Force Major General (Pilot) Muhammad Majeed Mahdi Mahmood earlier that month.

Dy Commander, Iraqi Air Force, Major General Muhammad Majeed Mahdi in Pakistan: file photo
The JF-17 Thunder was the highlight of a Pakistani participation during a defence exhibition in Baghdad in April 2021.
According to the sources quoted by the newspaper, the defence deal was approved by both the Iraqi and Pakistani governments and a formal agreement is expected to be signed in Islamabad next month. The Iraqi government has approved the amount of 664 million USD for the purchase of 12 fighter aircraft from Pakistan.

Iraq has been having significant problems maintaining its Iraq has 34 F-16IQ Block 52 fighters obtained from the U.S. Following Washington’s pull-out from Iraq, the jets have had a much lower level of maintenance than required. Some 20 aircraft are in a fly-worthy condition that too lacking in certain crucial armaments such air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons.

The JF-17 Block III jets, which are the latest iteration of the successful JF-17 could be a welcome addition to the Iraqi Air Force.

 

Roland55

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