Chengdu J-10 "Vigorous Dragon" fighter - News only

AndersJ said:
At SAAB in the 1980’s there was a joke going around that went something like this: “Do you know what characterizes American aerodynamics?” The answer was “Add more power!”.
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For a country that flew daily next to their Norwegian neighbors counterpart aircraft, the F-104, with its variable geometry inlets, Boundary layer trap, Blown flaps and leading edge flaps that´s a hard thing to figure.
I remember that none SAAB aircraft had such refinements in that era. (but the Lansen)
 
TomcatViP said:
For a country that flew daily next to their Norwegian neighbors counterpart aircraft, the F-104, with its variable geometry inlets, Boundary layer trap, Blown flaps and leading edge flaps that´s a hard thing to figure.
I remember that none SAAB aircraft had such refinements in that era. (but the Lansen)
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Well SAAB much like Dassault, were/are very much into aerodynamic refinements to cut down drag. That is why for example the Gripen does not have a bubble canopy like on the F-16, because while it certainly provides a better view to the rear, a more gradually tapering canopy like on the Gripen cuts back drag quite a lot.

BTW: Regarding variable inlets, SAAB's view (as I remember it) was that the complexity does not pay off until you target flying at speeds over M=2 for extended periods of time which was never in the cards for any SAAB aircraft that made it into production.
 
I honestly find it funny that people still buy into the China=Russia=Dogshit propaganda in 2025. I like how people mention that Russian AA systems got bombed by Israel and Russians themselves can't achieve air superiority and equating that Chinese systems must also suck for some reason while conveniently not mentioning J-10 downing multiple indian jets including atleast one Rafale.

China is already at the leading edge of aviation for fighter aircraft with J-36 and J-XDS. The only thing still holding them back is engine tech and the gap is getting close(might have already exceeded European engine technology although they haven't been doing much for the past 20 odd years).
 
Tomboy said:
I honestly find it funny that people still buy into the China=Russia=Dogshit propaganda in 2025. I like how people mention that Russian AA systems got bombed by Israel and Russians themselves can't achieve air superiority and equating that Chinese systems must also suck for some reason while conveniently not mentioning J-10 downing multiple indian jets including atleast one Rafale.

China is already at the leading edge of aviation for fighter aircraft with J-36 and J-XDS. The only thing still holding them back is engine tech and the gap is getting close(might have already exceeded European engine technology although they haven't been doing much for the past 20 odd years).
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I don't see that much here. More reminders that we don't know much about these new Chineses jets, and that most praises for it comes from either the Chineses themselves or China's ally (Pakistan), and knowing their habits of communications, NEVER anything negative or giving a hint of being inferior to anyone from the Chineses (this is Chinese State policy, and way of doing anyway), and "We won every wars with India, we are the best" from Pakistan.

So take these with a grain of salt.

Plus, the subject is the J-10, while modern, it's not the lastest in Chinese aero tech. At the time it was designed it was one big leap in their catching up. Don't see why saying it could be stable in pitch would be diminishing the achievement or saying it's dogshit. I'd rather trust a ex-aero engineer if he has a hint at that, even though I wouldn't dare say if it is stable or unstable in pitch myself, not having the expertise.

And I'm saying that agreeing they are very advanced, maybe on par with US and European mil aero industry with their last jets J-36 and stuff. They have the money, and they have a State willing to get them at the edge.
 
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galgot said:
I don't see that much here. More reminders that we don't know much about these new Chineses jets, and that most praises for it comes from either the Chineses themselves or China's ally (Pakistan), and knowing their habits of communications, NEVER anything negative or giving a hint of being inferior to anyone from the Chineses (this is Chinese State policy, and way of doing anyway), and "We won every wars with India, we are the best" from Pakistan.

So take these with a grain of salt.
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This. Some states have a very relaxed view on this and a very poor track record when it comes to facts which would make it hard for them to convince others even if they started telling the truth. So when it comes to getting an idea of how Chinese systems fare against Western, my first port of call would not be the Chinese media, military spokesmen, or their allies.

galgot said:
Plus, the subject is the J-10, while modern, it's not the lastest in Chinese aero tech. At the time it was designed it was one big leap in their catching up. Don't see why saying it could be stable in pitch would be diminishing the achievement or saying it's dogshit. I'd rather trust a ex-aero engineer if he has a hint at that, even though I wouldn't dare say if it is stable or unstable in pitch myself, not having the expertise.
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This thread has been a lot about aerodynamic performance and things that look good at airshows like the Cobra maneuver etc. But how useful is this actually in combat? Do we really think that that will be decisive in future conflicts? And connected to this: The Gripen’s aerodynamic performance is not that impressive really, and many aircraft are both faster and have better turn performance etc.

But the Gripen’s strength is not its aerodynamics, but rather its systems technology and avionics, sensor fusion, top notch EW & AESA radar, data sharing between other aircraft, AWACS ships etc. And I think that, and not some high alfa TVC maneuvering at stall speeds are going to determine the outcome in any future conflict. And in that arena I think the West is still holding all the cards. But for sure, while the Russians seem to be out for the count, the Chinese seem to be going all in. But I still think they have a long way to go before their systems match the best Western ones.

galgot said:
And I'm saying that agreeing they are very advanced, maybe on par with US and European mil aero industry with their last jets J-36 and stuff. They have the money, and they have a State willing to get them at the edge.
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I think complex Western military systems will actually continue to beat Chinese in the foreseeable future simply on the basis that the Western military industrial complex is market driven and free to pursue its own interests, while the Chinese is state steered and controlled. And this has never proven capable of delivering the best state-of-the-art military systems and always lagged behind the West. But who knows, maybe the ruling Chinese Communist Party will get the control of production resources and output right this time? But since that has been tried unsuccessfully before I don't know how many times, I’m not holding my breath on that one……..
 
AndersJ said:
I think complex Western military systems will actually continue to beat Chinese in the foreseeable future simply on the basis that the Western military industrial complex is market driven and free to pursue its own interests, while the Chinese is state steered and controlled. And this has never proven capable of delivering the best state-of-the-art military systems and always lagged behind the West. But who knows, maybe the ruling Chinese Communist Party will get the control of production resources and output right this time? But since that has been tried unsuccessfully before I don't know how many times, I’m not holding my breath on that one……..
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Do they really, though? I don’t see where the assumption that China is lagging behind the West comes from. China currently leads the world in shipbuilding not just in quantity, but also in quality excluding aircraft carriers, where it ranks second only to the U.S. The Type 055 destroyer, for instance, arguably outmatches any Western counterpart. On top of that, China has operational hypersonic glide vehicles and air-launched ballistic missiles capabilities no Western country has fielded. And while Europe is still relying on conventional fighters like the Eurocanards, China has independently developed and produced four distinct stealth fighter designs.
 
I can’t help but feel that the goal post is being shifted all the time:

1) Chinese and Pakistanis operators of the plane say it is good — can’t be trusted because they are biased.
2) Arabic/Turkish pilots who flew against the plane during Indus Shield/Falcon Shield say it is good — just a training exercise and not necessarily representative of real combat.
3) You have PAF shooting down cream of the crop of Indian Air Force in the largest BVR engagement of last two or three decades where — too small a sample size.

At this rate only WWIII could provide satisfactory “proof”, and don’t know about you but the last thing on my mind when that happens would be silly genital measuring contest on aerospace forums.
 
siegecrossbow said:
I can’t help but feel that the goal post is being shifted all the time:

1) Chinese and Pakistanis operators of the plane say it is good — can’t be trusted because they are biased.
2) Arabic/Turkish pilots who flew against the plane during Indus Shield/Falcon Shield say it is good — just a training exercise and not necessarily representative of real combat.
3) You have PAF shooting down cream of the crop of Indian Air Force in the largest BVR engagement of last two or three decades where — too small a sample size.

At this rate only WWIII could provide satisfactory “proof”, and don’t know about you but the last thing on my mind when that happens would be silly genital measuring contest on aerospace forums.
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the question better say is the evidence proof each and every kill it is claimed for J-10, I mean real pictures, the evidence is important the rest are just opinions and propaganda
 
Pardon me, had to catch up on the last 4 pages.

snne said:
The current posture of the People's Liberation Army is quite unrecognizable from that of the PLA from 2000s-10s. Imagine that you're the PLA-AF/-NAF of that time period and you are in a necessity to seriously modernize your pitiful air force.

The most modern jets that you can procure are the J-10 that had only recently become available and J-11s (11A is a locally assembled Su-27SK and 11B is a then-recently developed wholly Chinese jet with passable Chinese avionics and engines). You have many hundreds of J-7s&J-8II/Bs to replace and you face just as numerous F-16s, F-15s, F-18s, F-22s and soon F-35s.

Your industrial base can produce no more than 100 70-80(?) J-10 and J-11 annually, would you reserve some of those production slots for some export customer or would you try to quickly catch up to your adversaries' level as a newcomer to the modern era aerial warfare?
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Assuming the lower numbers, I'd keep about 50-60 plane slots for internal use and let ~20 slots for urgent export to people willing to pay for the privilege of high priority.

"If you want a squadron this year, it'll cost +20%. If you can wait on delivery for ~5 years, it'll cost X."



SUPER=BUG said:
To be honest, the J10C has indeed started to fade away in China, not due to technical reasons, quite the opposite, its technology is quite good. It has gradually failed to meet the appetite of the Chinese Air Force. The J10 was initially developed as an interceptor, and it has a relatively small combat radius and payload capacity. However, for countries with not such vast territories, the price and performance of the J10CE are also a good choice.
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Hrm. Not sure there's really a lot of market for a short-ranged interceptor these days.


helmutkohl said:
https://alert5.com/2025/05/27/indonesia-revives-abandoned-su-35-deal-adds-chinese-j-10s/
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What does a short-ranged Interceptor give Indonesia? Unfortunately for the Indonesian Budget, they need long ranged and therefore heavy/expensive aircraft.



AndersJ said:
Those figures done at airshows can be done with a very simple FCS even if the aircraft is stable (e.g. Su-27). Regarding how "state-of-the-art" Chinese FBW systems are I've seen videos of J-10's taxiing with the FBW trying to compensate the pitch angle on the ground! :D
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So their FBW doesn't have a weight-on-wheels lockout. So what?



AndersJ said:
Moving the canard unnecessarily on the ground wears bearings and lowers canard servo life. But for sure, it’s not a deal breaker but still an indication of system maturity I think. Then regarding making a FBW system for the J-36 and J-XDS: Making a FBW that allows a configuration like that to fly in level flight and in mild maneuvering would not be that difficult. Making one that can handle large degrees of negative instability in pitch with margins for large combinations of alfa and beta and derivates thereof in gusty conditions would be. So from what I've seen of the J-10 and until we see the J-36 and J-XDS pulling off some hefty maneuvers, I remain unimpressed.
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Or they decided that it wasn't worth the development time.

Remember, the YF-23's ruddervators were twitching like butterfly wings. Because the FBW didn't have a WOW switch in the logic.
 
F-14ATomcat said:
the question better say is the evidence proof each and every kill it is claimed for J-10, I mean real pictures, the evidence is important the rest are just opinions and propaganda
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Indians aren’t speaking are they? We can only wait for more information for PAF but in the mean time I think the circumstantial evidence is pretty heavy. Pakistan says they shot down Rafale with PL-15, we see downed Rafale, Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and/or Su-30 before censors started scrubbing them out. If these are kills claimed by, say Ukrainian Air Force then people will more than be happy to gobble them up. In fact people swallowed the Ghost of Kiev nonsense wholesale when there was basically no supporting evidence for it. On the other hand we have PAF claiming kills since day one and IAF officials and IA officials begrudgingly acknowledging them weeks after the fact but somehow that’s now sufficient evidences. Again, shifted goal posts and double standards.
 
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siegecrossbow said:
Indians aren’t speaking are they? We can only wait for more information for PAF but in the mean time I think the circumstantial evidence is pretty heavy. Pakistan says they shot down Rafale with PL-15, we see downed Rafale, Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and/or Su-30 before censors started scrubbing them out. If these are kills claimed by, say Ukrainian Air Force then people will more than be happy to gobble them up. In fact people swallowed the Ghost of Kiev nonsense wholesale when there was basically no supporting evidence for it. On the other hand we have PAF claiming kills since day one and IAF officials and IA officials begrudgingly acknowledging them weeks after the fact but somehow that’s now sufficient evidences. Again, shifted goal posts and double standards.
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I am not interested in what you believe, prove it, if not it is an opinion, respectable but at the end, an opinion or a belief, I just think a Rafale was lost, but 3, no way, and the rest is claims, so no need to argue more, I love Rafale and in war machines suffer loses but I am sure Rafale did damage to Pakistan, in balance that is what I really think, the rest are opinions and propaganda from my point of view,
 
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siegecrossbow said:
At this rate only WWIII could provide satisfactory “proof”
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Historically, this was the case; the Japanese military was assumed by many to be not very good until WW2.
Ultimately, as pointed out in the novel 1984, a test of arms establishes reality in ways that are difficult for politicians and ideologues to cover up - one way or another.
One more reason we are living in a period of fairly severe geopolitical risk.

EmoBirb said:
Where does Indonesia get all the money from to pay for such a diverse and still decent quality air force?
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Indonesia has 280 million people, and may well be one of the five largest economies on the planet by 2050. At present, it is the 17th largest economy in the world, just smaller than Turkey.
 
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From bdmilitary-link:
Washington's position, as characterised in Bangladeshi reporting, is nuanced: robust trade and commercial engagement - yes; deeper defence integration with China - uncomfortable. The Yunus government's attempt to balance relations with both the U.S. and China makes any high-profile arms politically sensitive, Dhaka will be acutely aware that defence procurements can spill over into wider economic diplomacy, including tariffs and broader bilateral agendas, as recent U.S.-Bangladesh trade frictions have shown.
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Tariffs used as a means to further sales of US hardware?
 
aonestudio said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1960627541846450623
View: https://x.com/Defence_Index/status/1960627541846450623

https://www.bdmilitary.com/defence-...to-purchase-j-10c-fighters-amid-u-s-pressure/
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We have heard so much on sales recently and NOTHING came out as true so far, that I remain to my So I stick to my position: As long as you don't see it posted by official sources or a J-10C with that named country's markings, all these rumours & reports are probably fake!
 
Deino said:
We have heard so much on sales recently and NOTHING came out as true so far, that I remain to my So I stick to my position: As long as you don't see it posted by official sources or a J-10C with that named country's markings, all these rumours & reports are probably fake!
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Rumors are just that, rumors. However usually if there is smoke, there's fire too. Like how sales of various advanced Russian aircraft were rumored to take place to Algeria. These were rumors, then the Su-34MEs surfaced and the formerly for Egypt intended Su-35s are flying again as well (not to mention the alleged demonstration flight of a prototype caught in Algeria a couple years back and the alleged export customer for the Su-57SE).

I'd assume there are a lot of negotiations taking place around the J-10CE behind closed doors, after all it gathered a lot of attention and as a capable single engine multirole fighter it has appeal for various mid tier air forces. If not outright talks about potential purchases, then surely other ways to express interest and curiosity in the aircraft and it's capabilities though. However negotiations like these can go on for years and depend heavily on internal and especially foreign politics alike and ultimately could fall apart for such reasons, or ultimately succeed and come to fruition in the end.

So I wouldn't be surprised if there were talks between the PRC and Bangladesh. But for a long time these will probably remain just that, talks, negotiations. While I wouldn't pay much attention to such a thing aside from acknowledging the possibility existing, I wouldn't call it outright fake either.
 
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EmoBirb said:
Rumors are just that, rumors. However usually if there is smoke, there's fire too. Like how sales of various advanced Russian aircraft were rumored to take place to Algeria. These were rumors, then the Su-34MEs surfaced and the formerly for Egypt intended Su-35s are flying again as well (not to mention the alleged demonstration flight of a prototype caught in Algeria a couple years back and the alleged export customer for the Su-57SE).

I'd assume there are a lot of negotiations taking place around the J-10CE behind closed doors, after all it gathered a lot of attention and as a capable single engine multirole fighter it has appeal for various mid tier air forces. If not outright talks about potential purchases, then surely other ways to express interest and curiosity in the aircraft and it's capabilities though. However negotiations like these can go on for years and depend heavily on internal and especially foreign politics alike and ultimately could fall apart for such reasons, or ultimately succeed and come to fruition in the end.

So I wouldn't be surprised if there were talks between the PRC and Bangladesh. But for a long time these will probably remain just that, talks, negotiations. While I wouldn't pay much attention to such a thing aside from acknowledging the possibility existing, I wouldn't call it outright fake either.
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The problem is, nowadays there is much too often smoke and only smoke posted as a rumour and always made the excuse you mentioned!
My point is, where there is a credible source telling something as a rumour, it‘s perfectly fine and most such information - for example the two next generation fighters - are unveiled or at least initially hinted that way, but if you look how often within the last year such claims were made, it simply makes no sense. Even more it is ridiculous since such a rumour is eagerly picked up by others, presented as a fact and the next one over-hypes it even more …

Prime examples are:
- Egypt is interested in J-10C … resulted soon they will arrive … became a moment later the first 40 are already delivered and the production site will be transferred … Egypt will produce J-10 for the whole ME
- Pakistan may get J-35A, … they are coming by early August … they are already there … they are delivered with PL-17 and PL-21
- Algeria will get J-10C, Iran already got the first ones, North Korea will soon have them as well as Uzbekistan, Sudan, Indonesia and surely Venezuelan too!

In summary based on a fact check: NOTHING is confirmed, only smoke and at best a tiny glowing whatever in regard to Egypt! But surely far away from what is claimed.

That‘s my point and that‘s why I usually react that allergic against such reports.
 
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Deino said:
I don't believe this until I see them.
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Unlike you, I actually take officials' statements somewhat seriously as statements of intent, but these recently announced procurement plans are so overambitious that it's hard to believe they'll be fully implemented.

I mean, F-16As, Su-30s, Rafales, J-10(As?), KF-21s and the future Kaan Block 30s all in one fleet? That's an unprecedented logistical nightmare for any maintenance crew.

20250726_211911-jpg.779222
 
snne said:
Unlike you, I actually take officials' statements somewhat seriously as statements of intent, but these recently announced procurement plans are so overambitious that it's hard to believe they'll be fully implemented.

I mean, F-16As, Su-30s, Rafales, J-10(As?), KF-21s and the future Kaan Block 30s all in one fleet? That's an unprecedented logistical nightmare for any maintenance crew.

20250726_211911-jpg.779222
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F-16s are soon to go and Flankers have 10 years left and i suspect F-15EX deal is gone.
The J-10s apparently are refurnished and modernised J-10Bs or just J-10Cs.
 
snne said:
Unlike you, I actually take officials' statements somewhat seriously as statements of intent, but these recently announced procurement plans are so overambitious that it's hard to believe they'll be fully implemented.
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it still reads like a casually thrown comment.
When there is an official press announcement or a press release - that will make it more believable.
 

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