CA-134 Des Moines-Class Heavy Cruisers - 1980's Reactivation Proposals

At which point the cost saving from running two smaller ships has to pay for the additional non-recurring expenditure to create two sets of modernisation plans. Given how extensive the modernisation was, that's hugely unlikely.
 
At which point the cost saving from running two smaller ships has to pay for the additional non-recurring expenditure to create two sets of modernisation plans. Given how extensive the modernisation was, that's hugely unlikely.
From Friedman:
Proposals in 1982 to reactivate the Des Moines and the Salem instead of the Missouri and the Wisconsin were abortive. The ships were stricken in 1992.
There is some possibility that the dedicated or semidedicated flagship will be revived in the form of a battleship or cruiser conversion. That is, current plans for the modernization of the four Iowa-class battleships do not include dedicated modern flag facilities, but these ships will almost inevitably serve as at least battle-group flagships in peacetime. The two surviving Des Moines-class cruisers have a similar potential, and as of this writing they are being proposed, albeit outside the navy, for reactivation as cruise-missile platforms. Similarly, any future program for large-capacity cruise-missile warships invites flag facilities-as in the case of the strike cruiser. The fleet flags may yet return to sea.
 
I understand there was a proposal to reactivate two CA-134 Class Heavy Cruisers (probably USS Des Moines and USS Salem) in place of or in additional to the Iowa Class reactivations. Below are two of the concepts I have found. However, I was wondering if there are any more details out there? The Iowa's were a response to the Kirov's; could these have been a similar response to the Slava's? Could the US Navy have operated six Surface Action Groups (four BB based + two CA based) as a part of the 600 Ship Navy? I know this would have required additional escorts beyond what was already programed for the 15 CVBG + 4 SAGs. Any thoughts or insight are welcome.

Thanks!

View attachment 661601
Here are two others in the same study:

CAG-134a.gif CAG-134b.gif
 
Here are the rest of Des Moines Conversion proposals:
LCC ala Landing Craft Carrier/Support Ship with ASW support capability:
1689158380800.png
Amphibious Assault Support Ship:
1689158505432.png
Command Ship Conversion:
1689158546105.png
Typhon Fleet Flagship Conversion:
1689158625705.png
 
The USN seems to be pretty desperate to bring missile ships to the water using every hull avaiable and convert every ship it had!
 
To bad the USN didn't developed those saboted 11 inch guided shells with 100+km range. Combine that with liquid propellents what a missed opportunity.
 
To bad the USN didn't developed those saboted 11 inch guided shells with 100+km range. Combine that with liquid propellents what a missed opportunity.
Liquid propellents are in the category of Cool but not practical.

They just dont have any consistency to them.

One shot might be going 850 meters a second, and the next be going 750 or 900.

Which even with guided shells is a bad thing due to how you likely need the 900 to get the full 100km shot but end up getting the 750.

Falling FAR short.

Or have the reverse happen and over shot like hell.

Due to the Amount of Propellant needed the injectors end up making the stuff foamy like a shaken up soda destoying any attempt to have the same shot to shot velocity.
 
Interesting maybe the navy should have looked into a gun/missile launcher instead that concept seems to have finally matured. Both the germans and russians have successfully fielded gun/missile launchers on their latest MBTs
 
Interesting maybe the navy should have looked into a gun/missile launcher instead that concept seems to have finally matured. Both the germans and russians have successfully fielded gun/missile launchers on their latest MBTs
You mean "Made a missile that can be fired from their MBT main gun"
 
Yeah and in the 1960's Project Harp fired a suborbital satellite from a two 16/45 naval cannons welded together.
Right, but that's as opposed to something like the MGM-51 Shillelagh, which was a missile launcher that could fire gun rounds. And disable the missile electronics if it did.
 
Interesting maybe the navy should have looked into a gun/missile launcher instead that concept seems to have finally matured. Both the germans and russians have successfully fielded gun/missile launchers on their latest MBTs
They did. It was called the Advanced Gun System.
 
Rocket boosted guided projectile? Yeah, we could call that a gun-launched missile, though it's a bit of a stretch as I think the regular propellant still gives most of the range.

For a short while, the Navy wanted to call AGS a Trainable Rocket Launcher (TRL). Because at 80+ NM, most of the range did come from the motor, not the initial powder charge. Without a rocket-propelled round, AGS was nowhere close to achieving its requirements.

Here's a 2003 article with that terminology, written by one of my then-coworkers.

 
For a short while, the Navy wanted to call AGS a Trainable Rocket Launcher (TRL). Because at 80+ NM, most of the range did come from the motor, not the initial powder charge. Without a rocket-propelled round, AGS was nowhere close to achieving its requirements.

Here's a 2003 article with that terminology, written by one of my then-coworkers.

Very cool, thank you very much!

Let's see here... Excalibur is a standard base bleed shell without base bleed or rocket assist, and it increased the M777 range from roughly 15 22km to 40km, and with the longer barrel guns could reach 70km. 80nmi is roughly 150km, so the LRLAP's rocket booster was definitely giving it about half the total range... Of course, said rocket booster was roughly half the length of the 225lb shell, as the M795 shell is 858mm long while LRLAP is 2230mm long. Not sure if the number for LRLAP includes a brass cartridge case or not.

corrections in italics
 
Last edited:
Excalibur is base bleed starting in Increment 1a.
M795E1 is also base bleed with a ~30km range from a 39cal barrel, so the range increase looks like 1/3 from the glide portion (Excalibur has a 40km range from the 39cal barrels), 1/4 from the base bleed (regular rounds have a 22km range), 5/12 the charge increments.
 
For a short while, the Navy wanted to call AGS a Trainable Rocket Launcher (TRL). Because at 80+ NM, most of the range did come from the motor, not the initial powder charge. Without a rocket-propelled round, AGS was nowhere close to achieving its requirements.
You do have to wonder, at that point why are you bothering with the 'gun' element at all?
 
You do have to wonder, at that point why are you bothering with the 'gun' element at all?
Volume of fire.

DD-21 was planned to have 1200 rounds, DDG-1000 has 600 in the automated magazines plus another 320 in a storeroom. AGS as planned for DD-21 was planned to fire at 12rpm, and at 10rpm as built for DDG-1000.

Replacing each AGS mounting and magazines with a 64-cell Mk 41 VLS, quad-packed with an MLRS-derived system like POLAR (which would be lower-risk, hence probably a smarter choice, although similarly expensive) would provide 512 MLRS rockets, less than half of that of DD-21, and slightly less than the number of ready-rounds available to DDG-1000, although with the added advantage of having larger unitary warheads, DPICM for area-effect (although a DPICM variant of LRLAP was planned) and the potential of Smart payloads like SMArt or SADARM).
 
Last edited:
Replacing each AGS mounting and magazines with a 64-cell Mk 41 VLS, quad-packed with an MLRS-derived system like POLAR (which would be lower-risk, hence probably a smarter choice, although similarly expensive) would provide 512 MLRS rockets, less than half of that of DD-21, and slightly less than the number of ready-rounds available to DDG-1000, although with the added advantage of having larger unitary warheads, DPICM for area-effect (although a DPICM variant of LRLAP was planned) and the potential of Smart payloads like SMArt or SADARM).
See, I was thinking more along the lines of a Mk 105 rocket launcher scaled up for 155mm projectiles. Still pointable, and feeding from a substantially similar magazine, but the launcher can be significantly lighter and less complex by virtue of not pretending to be a gun.
 
DPICM for area-effect (although a DPICM variant of LRLAP was planned) and the potential of Smart payloads like SMArt or SADARM).
Should be point out that there are both Smart and SADARM for 155mm shells.

So it not inconceivable a future LRLAP to have those.

Throw in the milimeter wave seekers for the Army 120mm XM1111 MRM-CE or the Xm943 staff and it been a scary system.
 
See, I was thinking more along the lines of a Mk 105 rocket launcher scaled up for 155mm projectiles. Still pointable, and feeding from a substantially similar magazine, but the launcher can be significantly lighter and less complex by virtue of not pretending to be a gun.

That kind of rocket just wouldn't have the range, though. The 5-inch bombardment rocket reached about 10,000 yards (9 km). Even scaling up to 6-inch won't buy a lot more range. Extending the motor will add some more, at the cost of bulk. A quick look at available ~160mm MLRS type rockets suggest that maybe 40-45 km is a typical range for these. And most of them are quite long, probably longer than LRLAP and it's propellant charge.

Remember that the AGS range spec was set by the desire to counterbattery Russian 122mm artillery shooting at Marines crossing the beach, while maintaining a 25-nm standoff to give the ship time to counter coast defense cruise missiles. It's a very demanding spec, and in the end, even LRASM had a hard time achieving it.
 
Last edited:
Should be point out that there are both Smart and SADARM for 155mm shells.

So it not inconceivable a future LRLAP to have those.

Throw in the milimeter wave seekers for the Army 120mm XM1111 MRM-CE or the Xm943 staff and it been a scary system.
I don't disagree, AGS and LRLAP were very capable, and would certainly have been desirable had there been more money, that said AGS seems to have been a very technically risky system, on an already very technically risky ship design, leading to significant cost overturns, and was ultimately doomed when it became an orphaned system on a class of 3 combatants rather than 32 (and potentially also on up to another 19 CG(X)s).

If killing AGS very early on in the design process (circa 2000 or earlier) would have saved the rest of the ship, I would have made that choice, with POLAR being adopted so as to ensure that the ship was still relevant in a Post-Cold War world of interventionism, whilst still ensuring that a large adaptable surface combatant could be built that could also be flexibly re-tasked in the new Cold War we now find ourselves in (and Zumwalt as designed in either the form of DD-21 or DDG-1000 was certainly capable of that).
 
The Navy made a series of ill-advised decisions around NSFS in that timeframe. But I suspect that the gun was seen as the only unique capability that justified a new ship. POLAR could have been loaded on yet more DDG-51s.
 
I don't disagree, AGS and LRLAP were very capable, and would certainly have been desirable had there been more money, that said AGS seems to have been a very technically risky system, on an already very technically risky ship design, leading to significant cost overturns, and was ultimately doomed when it became an orphaned system on a class of 3 combatants rather than 32 (and potentially also on up to another 19 CG(X)s).
I don't think AGS was all that technically risky. It's an automatic 6" naval gun with a rocket-assisted shell, and the USN has had brass-cased automatic 6" guns since 1932, firing 10-12rpm at that time. They equipped the Brooklyn, Cleveland, Fargo, and Worcester class light cruisers! The US Army has had rocket-assisted shells since the 1960s with the M549.

IMO the USN should be buying dozens of the AGS turret/magazines and installing them in place of the 5"/62cal Mk45 guns. (I cannot tell what the weight of an entire 5"/54 Mk45 turret and magazine is, but if it really is only 21 tons then the AGS is 80 tons heavier and would take some serious redesigning)
 
There were some studies of an AGS lite on a Burke. It costs the forward VLS at least, for I think 200 rounds or so.

But the real problem is that the Navy just cannot get around an acceptable guided gun round. Given the number of tries, in 5, 6.1, and 8-inch calibers, there must be a really deep-seated institutional issue at work.
 
Actually, I was mistaken. AGS Lite could replace Mk 45 on DDG-51 with the VLS intact, as long as you're OK with 6 rpm and 180 rounds total. Assuming you believe BAE, which I'm not totally sure I do.
 

Attachments

  • Tuesday14034weyer.pdf
    300.9 KB · Views: 21
Actually, I was mistaken. AGS Lite could replace Mk 45 on DDG-51 with the VLS intact, as long as you're OK with 6 rpm and 180 rounds total. Assuming you believe BAE, which I'm not totally sure I do.
180rds total is inadequate, 6rpm is debatable.

There were some studies of an AGS lite on a Burke. It costs the forward VLS at least, for I think 200 rounds or so.

But the real problem is that the Navy just cannot get around an acceptable guided gun round. Given the number of tries, in 5, 6.1, and 8-inch calibers, there must be a really deep-seated institutional issue at work.
Well, we'll see how well the various Excalibur rounds work. (No, I'm not saying that the Navy is using Excalibur shells in the AGS)

Part of the earlier issue was getting guidance systems to survive gunfire acceleration at all. That's been a solved problem since 2008 at the latest. Copperhead for SAL. What I would like more information on is the Excalibur HTK shells, and whether they're using an actual SDB2 trimode seeker or something else.

At this point, the difference between Excalibur and LRLAP is the rocket booster.
 
as getting guidance systems to survive gunfire acceleration at all. That's been a solved problem since 2008 at the latest. Copperhead for SAL. What I would like more information on is the Excalibur HTK shells, and whether they're using an actual SDB2 trimode seeker or something else.
Try been solved since the the late 1940s, the USN Zeus arrow shells was a beam rider shot from 8 inch guns that had multiple success shots before the program was cancel in favor of the Three Ts.

Then the Copperhead was first shot in 1970, hitting ICO in 72. With the Navy making multiple 8 inch, then 5 inch laser guide shells.

Then in the mid to late 80s to 90s everyone start fluffing bout with MMW guided shells, with the Merlin mortar shell. Those dieing due to economical reasons from the End of the Cold War.

Excalibur was was start in 92 and ended up getting delay and paused afew times till bout 2002 when the program merged with a Swedish one after India has good success bunker killing with their old soviet source Laser Guide ones.

2004 was when all the tech for the GPS/INS systems finally became small enough to fit inside a standard size 155mm shell with room left for a decent payload. After a few more hiccups with GPS signal lock and changing of the flight profile, a few was sent to Afghanistan and Iraq for field test.

Those units sent back a 1 one report basically.

More.

Cue the MIC going ham and everyone finally realizing that Artillery PGMs were possible with Excalibur getting a whole lot of publicity.

During this time the Army also tested 2 different 120mm tank gun PGMs with MMW/Thermal seekers. The XM943 Staff which got found into the XM1111, which also had a thermal version, program for the Future Combat System, which died when that system did. Despite both shells being successfully tested.

South Korea start up their own version of tge XM1111 a few years back with the K-STAM. Which is a MMW only guided shell. Apparently Isreal is working on a similar design with a few others like India having similar programs, and have gun launch missiles for them as well. Basically only the US doesn't have a 120mm size weapon in PUBLIC development. With there being nothing stopping us from making one beside budget and need.

Eyeah Artillery launch PGMs have been a thing for a HOT minute and have a decent future ahead of them.
 
I think the issue with the Zumwalts is less the design itself, and more that it was built on false premises.
What false premise? I think if they had built 32 of them it would be a much more viable platform.
 
What false premise? I think if they had built 32 of them it would be a much more viable platform.
The Zumwalts aren't unviable in any way, they're a perfectly functional ship. Sure they had a few teething issues, but they've outgrown them. There are rumors going around that not even a 774 can hear them at point-blank range, plus they have the best ASW sensors in the fleet.

The Zumwalt is the product of a series of unfortunate circumstances and missteps, and I think it's amazing the end product turned out remotely functional. She is the brainchild of 1990s thinking; limited budgets which led to overly complex design studies that produced few viable results (cough cough SC-21), the Gulf War NGFS craze, and rapidly dwindling ship numbers.

Once the Berlin Wall fell, the Navy lost its main purpose; containing the VMF. The Navy found itself left with ~592 ships with no foe that could justify the existence of such a large force. Then came the budget cuts, forcing the Navy to scrap half its operational force in about a decade. The Forrestals, CGNs, Terrier Cruisers, early destroyers, ASROC frigates, and virtually every submarine that wasn't a Los Angeles or Ohio. Although to be fair, a lot of those would be scrapped in the 1990s regardless. The remaining fleet, which was all the relatively high-end stuff, didn't seem to have much of a role at that point.

Then the Gulf War happened. The Iowas had their one final hurrah before heading to the museums, and all of a sudden the Navy got real interested in NGFS again. Rather than holding the line in the Norwegian and Greenland Seas, the Navy thought they'd be fighting rogue third-world countries in some backwater part of Africa or Asia.

Seeing as budgets were now back to Pre-Cold War levels (hell, pre-WW2 levels), money had to be wisely spent. That and the sudden influx of technology (VLS, phased arrays, guided shells, and stealth) meant that any future ships had to be meticulously designed to be compatible with budgets, future threats, and be capable of significant amounts of NGFS (I know, great English there). And, in order to make up for declining fleet numbers, it would probably be doing the role of at least 2 ship classes. So began the SC-21 COEA study.

The SC-21 study began in 1994, although its origins could probably be traced back to the late 80s, when CNO Trost ordered 2 new studies, the Ship Operational Characteristics Study (SOCS), and the Surface Combatant Force Requirement Study (SCFRS). SCFRS concluded that the fleet should be made up of 224 vessels, most of which would be relatively high-end (we wanted to cut out frigates entirely actually, instead cycling old destroyers and cruisers down to the convoy escort role). SOCS concluded that stealth, power generation, growth potential, and other new technologies would be vital to the future of the fleet. This was then backed up by a slew of other studies that fell somewhere between SC-21 and SCFRS/SOCS. So, that thinking along with the need to spend money carefully, and the sudden passion for NGFS was all factored into SC-21.

The resulting concepts from the SC-21 were less than sane, to put it likely. When the program ended in 1997, we had successfully drafted a 25,000-ton cruiser that had 254 Mk41 cells and an entire welldeck for an LCAC, a ship with modular BMD capabilities, the Arsenal Ship, a weaponized tanker, and just about everything in between. In total, at least 32 designs were considered. Ultimately, it was decided to procure 3 designs, the Arsenal Ship, a Spruance/Perry replacement intended for NGFS and ASW, and a Tico replacement. The Arsenal Ship was considered the least risky design of all the options, with a projected procurement date of 1998(?), and the lessons learned from that program would support the new destroyer which would be laid down around 2005, which would ultimately serve as a stepping stone to a much larger AAW flagship around 2017. Obviously, the later 2 became the Zumwalt and CG(X) programs respectively.

I believe this was an important step in the Zumwalt's design history. In retrospect, the SC-21 program was a disaster from the very start. While not clear then, it is ultimately the source of all the Navy's current problems. To paraphrase what the man who lead the SC-21 studies said, "there was too little funding, too little time, too many studies, and the proper tools to embark upon such an ambitious program (namely CAD and computer software), were still in their infancy". That and Reagan's Navy had a history of designing very odd ships (see my CONFORM bibliography document), and this culture ultimately carried over into the 1990s. I think part of the reason this happened was the 1980s CONFORM designs were not meant to be taken seriously, they were merely thought exercises. In reality, actual efforts to design the next warships, namely the Burke Flight III, NFR-90, and Burke herself were well underway. All but one of the programs listed above ultimately fell through due to post-Cold War budgets, and the only remaining design studies were the less than rational. That combined with the lack of a well-defined role for the Navy, various domestic and geopolitical changes ultimately created a disaster waiting to happen, which culminated in the SC-21 program.

So back to my original post. The Zumwalt is the brainchild of 1990s thinking, based upon 3 false premises. The first was the apparent need for NGFS, which was disproven by Bush Jr. and his invasion of Iraq. The second was the whole program from the start, there was too much theory and too much lunacy to make anything definite. And the third and final one, our inability to forsee the rise of China and the return to the open ocean naval battle thinking which was so present in the Cold War.
 
I still believe there is a cracking ship in there waiting to be discovered. Problem is that I see that about fifty years after they are gone for good.

The hull answers so many of the questions going the rounds I cannot believe the PTB do not see it.......

(PTB, Powers That Be).
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom