Bugatti 100 Racer and 110 Fighter Projects

Antonio

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Aviation Magazine Num 768 (15-XII-79)

On page 71 we find a reference about 110P fighter which was a development of Type 100P racer ordered in 1939 by Ministère de l'Air but never developed due to the outbreak of WWII.

Type 100 info and pics here:

http://www.bugattiaircraft.com/

http://www.bugattiaircraft.com/kalempa.htm

Could anybody post pics of Model 110P? :)

Thanks
 

GTX

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Try here: http://www.lionheartcreations.com/BugattiP110InterceptorInfo.html



Regards,

Greg
 

Flitzer

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Hi all..
I've read this topic with great interest and visited the mentioned sites.
I'm itching to do a profile of the P110 Interceptor and was wondering what developments/changes/modifications would have been required to make the 110 from the 100.

Red Admiral mentions clipped wings and the armament. The illustration shows 2 guns in each wing but not clipped wings.
I wondered where the 6 guns and the single 37mm may have been housed and how?

I ask those more wise and sage than I, what other mods may have been applied?

Many thanks
Peter
 

red admiral

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The 37mm gun fired through the propellor. I assume the 6x7.5mm mgs were in the wings as there isn't much space left in the fuselage. For other mods I'd think a radio aerial at least.
 

Jemiba

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... and I think, in most cases, where fighters got a curved windscreen, it turned out
to be less than ideal, so I would include at least a flat panel into the canopy.
 

Flitzer

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Many thanks to one and all.
I wil definitely do a profile in the near future and will include all these tips.
The only thing I'm a little wary of, is doing the flat pane windscreen on such a large canopy.
I agree with you Jemiba, but I'll have to put my thinking cap on to sort it out and try and make it look "pukka"...lol.

Cheers
Peter
;D
 

Flitzer

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PS...
Skybolt
I have not forgotten the Italian project...
Cheers
Peter
;D
 

Jemiba

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Just a proposal for the flat windscreen . In fact I think, a fighter
with such a heavy armament would have been much larger.
 

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lark

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Jemiba ,

The Bugatti Aircraft Association (www.bugattiaircraft.com)
speak about the 110P asof a light pursuit version with 2 guns.
Other sources speak of a "chasseur reconnaissense" reccon. fighter.

This is maybe closer to the real fighter proposal.

(one 37mmm and six wing guns-2x3- in indeed a bit to much for the
racer develloped fighter)
 

Jemiba

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Well, two guns seems to be much more plausible.
Tomorrow, I'll look for the article about the Bugatti 100 in
the Aviation Francais Magazine, maybe there's a clue.
 

Flitzer

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Thanks for the illustration Jemiba.
Just what I hoped for.
When I start I may add a forward hoop too...I'll see what it looks like when I get there.

Excellent.
Cheers
Peter
;D
 

Flitzer

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Another little question...
The 100P had contra 2 blade props.
Do you think for the 110P these would have been upgraded to say 3 bladed ones?

Cheers
Peter
 

Jemiba

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Difficult question indeed .... ???
I think, in contrast to the britains, who built the first batches of their
Hurricanes and Spitfires still with two bladed props, the french seems to
have favoured three bladed ones for the fighters of that era, just before
the war. But a contra prop may be quite a different affair ! Probably three
blades would allow a lower diameter, compared to two blades and so allow
the installation of guns further inward. But that's just an amateurs opinion,
we need the experts here !
At least, three blades (or better six of two three bladed props) look better ! ;D
 

elmayerle

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You could get by with a somewhat lower prop rpm using three-bladed props rather than two-bladed ones for the same, or modestly higher, engine output, or you could go with a slightly smaller prop diameter and keep the same rpm. Personally, I'd go for three-bladed props and an uprated engine for the fighter.
 

Flitzer

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Thank you ...

Nice juicy 3 bladers seem to be in order then.

You are right Jemiba....they will look better... ;D :eek:

Cheers
Peter
 
J

joncarrfarrelly

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elmayerle said:
You could get by with a somewhat lower prop rpm using three-bladed props rather than two-bladed ones for the same, or modestly higher, engine output, or you could go with a slightly smaller prop diameter and keep the same rpm. Personally, I'd go for three-bladed props and an uprated engine for the fighter.
The question on the engine is, uprated to what?
The racer was to be powered by twin straight-8s, the airframe doesn't have the space for larger engines mounted in the same fashion and getting a useful power boost from the Bugatti engines could have been problematic. Aside from space issues I doubt the rather complicated drive system would have been able to absorb greatly increased power. A more likely power choice would be a single super-charged Hispano 12Y diving a single three-blade propeller...not as sexy as contra-props but much simpler.
Or I suppose one could have the beast powered by Harry A. Millers 1,200 cu in. V-16 aircraft engine design, Miller rated the design at 2,000 hp. ;)

Cheers, Jon
 

elmayerle

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I suspect the only useful power boost one could give the Bugatti engines, assuming they were stressed for it, would be supercharging or turbo-supercharging (most likely the former unless you were going for alititude performance). For simplicity's sake, I rather like the idea of a Hispano 12Y driving a simple three-bladed prop as you can make the prop gearbox stronger when you don't have to worry about contra-rotating props (fewer gears mean to fit the volume means you can make the individual components more robust). I wonder, though, if a 16-cylinder equivalent of the 12Y was available and would fit?

I'd like to know more about the Miller engine, but comparing displacement and output values with the V1650 (Merlin) and Allison V1710, I'm a bit skeptical of that output.
 
J

joncarrfarrelly

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Hi Evan,
the Miller V-16 was one of Harry's 'paper projects' from later in his career. He no longer had Leo Goossen by his side
to turn dreams into practical reality, so its anybody's guess how the engine woudl have turned out.
Miller also worked on a V-16 engine design for Bell during the same period...a replacement for the V-1710 in the P-39.

Cheers, Jon
 

Flitzer

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Hi again

So far for the P110 version, I have...

3 blade prop,
Flat panel windscreen to cockpit,
Clipped wings
and a choice of engines....

I ask...
Which engine(s) would have been the most likely?

Also would the fabric/dope skin have been retained or would a metal one have been adopted instead?


Many thanks
Peter

;D
 

red admiral

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Hispano-Suiza 12 Y or Z quite likely. Not much weight increase. Plenty of space to accomodate one. Have to dtich the original contra-props though.
 

Flitzer

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Hi all...

work in progress of the P110 profile.
I decided to go with one of the HS 12's as red admiral suggested.

Your comments would be a big help.
Many thanks
Peter
;D
 

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smurf

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Not sure about the tail unit. The vertical surface may be OK on the racer, but looks a bit vulnerable to a rough landing by a damaged fighter or a wounded pilot. Is a "conventional" butterfly going too far from the original?
 

Flitzer

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Hi smurf,
You could well be right, but I didn't want to be too radical in changes from the P100, visual ones at least.
I'm trying to do the minimum changes to get a reasonable representation of the P110 version.

But....lol...I could do two versions. One as is and one with more logical changes.

For example, I'm still not sure if I should do the skin in metal or stick with the doped fabric of the P100?

Many thanks
Peter
;D
 

Archibald

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red admiral said:
Hispano-Suiza 12 Y or Z quite likely. Not much weight increase. Plenty of space to accomodate one. Have to dtich the original contra-props though.
Very good!

I would say 12Y (860 hp) for a 1939 aircraft. 12Z only see the light of the day in the 1945-1946 era. 12Y was the engine of MS-406, VG-33 and D-520 ;)
 

smurf

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I'm trying to do the minimum changes to get a reasonable representation of the P110 version.
Yes, I thought so. There is a precedent - the Martin-Baker MB2 appeared with a variety of tails before settling to a conventional one, and later the Supermarine 508 etc. I'd be interested to see the variant.
 

Flitzer

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Thanks for the input...great stuff.

I'll continue with this version, then do a set of side views at least with a variety of tail choices.

Any views on metal skin yet? ::)


Cheers
Peter
;D
 

Kim Margosein

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With all the modification to make the Bugatti fit for military use, I am reminded of the Bf-209 (the speed record aircraft) that went down the same road. By the time you make the aircraft and engine robust enough to be useful, you're left with an aircraft with little or no advantage over off the shelf contemporary fighters.

Kim Margosein
 

Flitzer

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Hi Farloccus
Yes its down at the moment and I don't know why... :-\

My workmate runs it but he's away on holiday, so I'll have to wait his return.

And Kim
you are probably right, but I do this sort of thing for fun and just to see what "might" have been.
It's just that the French had their aircraft development put on hold, so to speak, and with the Bugatti P100 hidden away, I thought it interesting enough to see how things may have panned out under different circumstances.

Many thanks
Peter
 

Flitzer

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Hi all'
this is as far as I got with the P110 profile.
Tail variants at a later date.

Cheers
Peter
 

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Jemiba

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Really great !
And with regards to the tail unit, I would point to the fact, that
the ventral part isn't just a fin, but has a rudder. So it's more
a reversed conventional tail, but a butterfly tail, I think.
 

red admiral

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Shouldn't the wing guns be slightly further outboard? Currently they still need interrupter gear as the prop interferes with them. Generally looks good though.
 

smurf

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Jemiba said
the ventral part isn't just a fin, but has a rudder
which was part of the reason I thought it vulnerable. If we are voting, I'd go for a butterfly tail rather than a conventional fin upwards tail unit. IMHO it somehow seems to fit the plane better.
 

Flitzer

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Many thanks for your comments.

Red Admiral.
You are right. I didn't notice the guns being in line for fouling the prop blades.
I'll fix it. Thanks for the lone of your hawkeye.

Smurf.
I will do another version with, as you say, a Butterfly tail at a later date.

Cheers
Peter
;D
 

Jemiba

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Just read the article about the Bugatti 100 and the 110P fighter version
in the Fliegerkalender 2007 ("Aviators Calendar 2007), written by Ferdinand
c.W. Käsmann. He says, the 110P would have been powered by two 525hp,
liquid powered Bugatti 50B engines, derivatives of the type which was used
in sports cars. No mention of the type of prop to be used .
 

Kadija_Man

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Excuse me for asking but shouldn't there also be some form of air intakes for both the engine aspiration and cooling? I seem to remember on the racer there were intakes in the roots (which I felt were far too small) for radiater inlets. They appear to be missing from your profile.
 

Flitzer

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Many thanks for your comments.

Jemiba
I was going to do the 2 x 50B's, but the concensus of opinion suggested the best bet for the fighter version would have been the Hispano Suzia 12Y.
But as I hope to do more variants, I could always do one with the two 50B's.

Rickshaw.
You are right there should be a wing root intake. But on the 100P there was a novel cooling system with intakes on the leading edges of the tail fins and exits at the trailing edges of the main wings right up against the fuselage sides, so the wing root intakes may have only needed comparitively small openings...(?)

Interesting stuff..
Cheers
Peter

;D
 

Kadija_Man

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Rather complex a cooling system. I wonder if it would have, like so many novel cooling methods have proven good enough for the job? At least they didn't attempt that other useless system, evaporative cooling! I think you'll find in a service aircraft, they'd have needed to have larger wing root intakes for the radiators. Ensuring sufficient cooling has often been the downfall of many a novel aircraft design. :'(
 
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