Breda Aircraft Designations

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Breda (Societa Italiana Ernesto Breda), Milan

I've had a stab at Breda aircraft designations but, as usual, there's lots of holes to fill. One puzzle is the attached single-seat biplane identified as "Apparecchio Breda HP 270, Ponte San Pietro 11/22/26".

http://www.ceraunavoltapontesanpietro.com/gallery/campo_aviazione/Campo+aviazione/estesa/all
http://www.ceraunavoltapontesanpietro.com/popup.php?url=campo_aviazione/|JespcHtP.jpg Original View

Can anyone identify this little biplane? At a glance, it seems to be a scaled-down Breda A.1. But that doesn't fit the description of any of the models found so far. Might this single-seater be the 'missing' Breda A.5 or A.6? Along with the registration I-BASV, the number '73' is painted on the fuselage side. Might 73 be a Breda numero di costruzione? It seems unlikely that it is a type number. Any ideas on this aircraft?
 

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Breda (Societa Italiana Ernesto Breda) Aircraft Designations

Breda Designations - Anomolies

Early Breda designations used prefix letters followed by numbers. But those numbers were duplicated and, in the case of the B.x series and M.1, do not appear to be consecutive with later Breda type numbers. Further duplication occurred when the designation B.1 was applied to an airliner conversion of a Breda-built Caproni Ca.5 bomber, B.1 having been previously applied to the Breda-Pensuit triplane.

When Breda licenced-built aircraft, these usually retained their original designations. Examples are: the Caproni Ca.5 and Ca.44 bombers; the CAB C.1, C.2, SC.4, SC.5 light aircraft, etc. In other cases, where Breda modified an existing type, the designer's name was simply added - as with the Breda Tebaldi-Zari fighter (see also the Breda-Pittoni and Breda-Zappata designations at the end of this list).


Breda-Pensuit B.1 - 1918 single-seat triplane, 6-cyl Anzani, 4.00m span
-- Emilio Pensuti's 1918 recce a/c, desig. may represent Breda + c/n 01
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8743.msg80376.html

Breda-Pensuit B.2 - 191? 2-seat triplane light a/c, 6-cyl Anzani, x 1 I-BADZ
- B.2: 'Triplanino' 2-seat light a/c deriv from B.1, B.2 from c/n 02 [?]
-- 'Ba.1' has been applied to B.2 (prob. a mistake springing from B.1)
-- NB: Jan den Das claim a variant with 80 hp Breda V-8 was also built

Breda B.1 - 1920 twin-engined twin-boomed biplane 6 pax airliner, 25m span
- B.1: Enclosed-cabin airliner conversion of surplus Caproni Ca.5 bomber
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14684.msg146557.html#msg146557
-- NB: Here the B.1 conv. is simply listed as 'Breda 1' and dated 1922
-- http://www.associazioni.milano.it/isec/mostra%20Breda/pagine/1920-45/aerei/paeron4.htm

Breda M.1 - 1919 twin-engined twin-boomed biplane 8 pax airliner, 23.40m span
- M.1: Enclosed-cabin airliner conversion of surplus Ca.44 bomber, aka Ca.57

Breda Tebaldi-Zari - 1922 modification to original Tebaldi-Zari fighter prototype
- Breda Tebaldi-Zari: 1 300 hp Hispano-Suiza HS 42 V-8, 2 x 7.7mm Vickers
-- Mods: long span/narrow chord upper wing, diff. stagger, removable lower wings
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12979.msg129300.html

Breda CC Designations - from the aircrafts' designers, Ing Crocco and Ing Costanzi*

[* Note, these engineers worked for the Italian military, not for Breda. Generale Gaetano Arturo Crocco founded the Istituto Centrale Aeronautico. Giulio Cesare Costanzi founded that istitute's experimental laboratory.]

Breda CC.20 - 1929 trimotor monoplane bomber, 2 x IF Asso A.500, 42m span 1 prototype
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12312.0.html

Breda CC.2000 - alternative desig. for CC.20 (based on total installed horsepower)

Breda CC.3000 - 193? trimotor monoplane, more powerful derivative of the CC.20
-- NB: Les Ailes n° 462 purports to illustrate CC.3000 (but looks same as CC.20)

_____________________________________________
 

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Breda (Societa Italiana Ernesto Breda) Aircraft Designations

Breda Designations - Numerical Sequence

Breda, itself, did not apply Ba. abbreviation to its designations, preferring the simpler Breda xx form (the familiar Ba. prefix was applied to Breda designations by the Ministero dell'Aeronautica and Regia Aeronautica). The Breda A.x numbers seem to be consecutive with later designations. B.x, numbers, M.x, etc. are included among the anomolous Breda designations listed above.

Breda A.1 -- 1924 4-bay biplane light a/c, 1 x 140 hp Colombo 110D, 10.20m span
- A.1: Derived from SAML* A-3 (in turn, derived from licenced Aviatik designs)
-- * Società Anonima Meccanica Lombarda took on Aviatik's designer, Robert Wild

Breda A.2 -- 1924 3-seat monoplane (2 pax side-by-side, pilot behind)
- A.2: 1 x 200 hp SPA 6A or 250 hp Isotta Fraschini Asso 200 6-cylinder inline

Breda A.3 -- 1924 biplane night bomber, 23m span (Warren truss), 1 prototype
- A.3: As first flown, 4 x 200 hp SPA 6A inline 6-cylinder engines
- A.3: As modified, 2 x 400 hp Lorraine-Dietrich 12Db V-12 engines

Breda A.4 -- 1927 2-bay biplane tandem 2-seat light a/c / trainer
- A.4: light aircraft in wheeled landplane config., 1 x 130 hp Colombo 110D
- A.4 HS: Hispano-Suiza engined version, 1 x 180 hp HS-8Ab V-8
- A.4 Idro: twin-float seaplane config. with enlarged vertical tail fin

Breda A.5 -- [??] some conf. between A.5 and B.1 (above)

Breda A.6 -- [??]

Breda A.7 -- 1926 parasol monoplane reconaissance aircraft, 2 + 12 built
- A.7 LD: Prototypes (c/n 601/602) 1 x 400 hp Lorraine-Dietrich 12Db V-12
- A.7 Asso: Series production type, 1 x 500 hp Isotta-Fraschini Asso V-12
- A.7 idro: A.7 Asso when mounted on twin float landing gear]
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1928/1928 - 0190.html photo/3v
- A.7 Raid: Long-range devel., later redesignated as Ba.16

Breda A.8 -- 1927 biplane night bomber, 23m span (Warren truss), 1 prototype
- A.8: As first flow, 2 x 400 hp Lorraine-Dietrich 12Db V-12 engines
- A.8: As modified, 2 x x 500 hp Isotta-Fraschini Asso V-12 engines
-- A.8 was derived from A.4 but with engines now mounted on lower wings

Breda A.9 -- 1928* 2-bay biplane tandem 2-seat trainer, 9.32m span, x 36
- Breda A.9: basic trainer, 1 x 250 hp Isotta-Fraschini V.6 inline
-- * Breda A.9 I-BAZP was registered in 1927 (but perhaps before flying?)
- Breda A.9 bis: 1930 reduced span (8.72 m) single-seat aerobatics trainer

Breda A.10 - 1928* 2-bay biplane tandem 2-seat intermediate trainer, 8.84m span
- Breda A.10: comb. features of A.9/A.9 bis, 1 x 250 hp Isotta-Fraschini V.6
-- * Breda A.10 I-BAUD was registered in 1927 (but perhaps before flying?)

Breda A.11-A.13 - [??]

Breda A.14 -- 1928 trimotor biplane bomber, 23m span (Warren truss), 1 prototype
- A.14: Similar to A.8 but with 3 x 410hp Alfa Romeo Jupiter 9-cyl radials
- A.14: Prototype rebuilt as an airliner with enclosed cabin, aka Ba.14

Ba.15 - 1928 2-seat tandem high-wing monoplane light cabin a/c, 10.80 span
- Ba.15 : Engines: Cirrus III, DH Gipsy, Colombo S.63, Walter Mars, IF Asso
- Ba.15 idro: Desig. for 1928 Ba.15 versione idro mounted on twin floats
- Ba.15N: 1937, I-APOL, I-AAAR
- Ba.15S: New elliptical wing; Walter 85, Venus, Colombo 118, 115 hp IF 8T
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1929/1929 - 0958.html photo/3v
- Ba.15S idro: 1931 twin-float equipped Ba.15S
- Ba.15ter: 1933 improved version, I-ACQB, I-ACQD, I-ACQE, I-ACQS
-- NB: Gloster modified 1 x Breda 15 with a variable-camber wing

Ba.16 - 1929 parasol monoplane reconnaissance a/c, 15.78m span, x 1 (I-TALI)
- Ba.16: 1 x 500 hp IF Asso 500 AQ then 440 hp Bristol Jupiter VII radial
-- Ba.16 was devel. of A.7, originally desig. A.7 Raid (long-range)

Ba.17-Ba.18 - [??]

Ba.18 - 193? (possibly) light aircraft

Ba.19 - 1930 aerobatic biplane, single- and 2-seaters, 9 m span, x 41
- Ba.19: Prototype, 1 x 200 hp Armstrong-Siddeley Lynx radial
- Ba.19: Production vers. (early) 1 x 240 hp Walter Castor radial
- Ba.19: Production vers. (late) 1 x 215 hp Alfa Romeo Lynx, x 23
- Ba.19 bis: Improved vers. 1- and 2-seaters, 215 hp AR Lynx, x 18
- Ba.19 ter: 2-seat vers, 1 x 260 hp AS Cheetah IIA radial, x 1

Ba.20-Ba.22 - [??]

NB: Ba.20 appears on David Lednicer's airfoil list, other refs typos
- "Breda Ba.20 samolot bombowo-nurkujacy (prototyp)" [for Ba.201?]
- "il XXXV Gruppo Autonomo montato sui Breda Ba 20 " [for Ba.65 ?]

Ba.23 - [Project] poss. Ba.25 military trainer vers. or light transport a/c [??]

Ba.24 - [??]

Ba.25 - 1931 biplane intermediate* trainer, 10m span, x 719
-- * Single-seater Ba.25 considered advanced trainer by RAI
- Ba.25: Prototype, single-seater, evol. from Ba.19
- Ba.25/Lynx: Prod. version two-seater, 215 hp Alfa Romeo Lynx
- Ba.25/D2: As above but with 250 hp Alfa Romeo D2 C.30 radial
- Ba.25/Mezzo-Asso: 1 x 250 hp Isotta Fraschini Asso 200*
-- * The IF Asso 200 previously called the Mezzo Asso (Half Ace)
- Ba.25 Ridotto: Aerobatic vers. with reduced wingspan
- Ba.25 I: Twin-float seaplane, enlarged rudder, 42 built
- Ba.25 bis: 1932 improved vers. (may refer to Ba.26)

Ba.26 - 1936 2-seat primary trainer vers. of Ba.25, 11.60m span
- Ba.26: 1 x 130 hp Walter NZ-120, poor performer, x 1 (I-ABFM)

Ba.27 - 1933 low-wing braced monoplane fighter, 10.70m span, 14 built
- Ba.27: Wooden wing, 1 x 530 hp Alfa Romeo Mercury VI, 2 built
-- 1st prototype: MM.216, orig. 2-blade prop, repl. by 3-blade metal
-- 2nd prototype: MM.217, enlarged tailplane compared with MM.216
- Ba.27 Metallico: 1934 refined design, cockpit moved fwd, metal wings
-- Ba.27 Metallico: aka Ba.27 M (I-BAWA / MM.218) China ordered 18*
-- * Only 11 Ba.27 M deliv. to China but no known new designation

Ba.28 - 1934 biplane advanced trainer, 1 x 380 hp Piaggio P.VIIZ
- Ba.28: Ba.25 deriv.* built both single- and two-seat config.
-- * Ailerons both wings, cowl, spinner, larger Ba.25 I-style rudder
- Ba.28 idro: Twin float version exported to Norway

Breda Ba.32 - 1931 trimotor low-wing monoplane light airliner, 26.67 span, x 2
- Ba.32: I-SEBM, 3 x 320 hp P&W Wasp Junior 9-cyl radials, 2 + 10 pax
- Ba.32: I-ADDB, 3 x Fiat [??], to military in 1935
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1932/1932%20-%200275.html 3v

Ba.33 - 1931 braced low-wing monoplane tourer, fixed u/c, air-cooled inline
- Ba.33: Serie 1, 1 x 130 hp DH Gipsy III, design by Cesare Pallavicino
- Ba.33: Serie 2, 1 x DH Gipsy II 4-cyl or 130 hp Colombo S.63 6-cylinder
- Ba.33S: Vers. with enlarged cabin, 1 x 130 hp Colombo S.63
-- http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1932/1932 - 0840.htm photos/3v

Ba.34-Ba.38 - [??]

Ba.39 - 1932 2-seat low-wing braced-monoplane tourer, 10.40m span
- Ba.39: Enlarged version of the Ba.33, 130hp Colombo S63 inline, 60 built
- Ba.39 Metr: Metropolitano, military vers. intended for home use, 20 built
- Ba.39 Col: Coloniale, military vers. intended for use abroad, 20 built
- Ba.39 S: 1934 3-seat vers., 3 built (MM55848 / I-LUDA, I-LUDO, I-VICE)

Ba.40-Ba.41 - [??]

Ba.42 - 1934 single-engine two-seat touring monoplane, eg: I-GOGA, I-OMBO
- Ba.42: Dev. from Ba.39, 1 x 180 hp Fiat A.70 S radial, slots repl. slats
-- Ba.42 built for the 1934 Challenge de Tourisme International

Ba.44 - 1934 licence-built DH.89 Dragon Rapide feederliner, 2 + 6 pax
- Ba.44: Prototype, 2 x 155 hp Colombo S.63 inline 6-cylinders
-- Prototype (MM.267) had S.63s mounted on lower, rev. wing plan
- Ba.44: Production, 2 x 200 hp DH Gipsy Six in lowered position

Ba.45 - [??]

Ba.46 - 1934 triplane low-wing monoplane bomber/transport a/c,* x 1 (I-SEBM)
-- * Designed to carry 12 troops or 2200 lb bombload, fixed spatted main u/c
- Ba.46: As flown, 3 x 320 hp P&W Wasp Junior air-cooled radials, NACA cowls
- Ba.46: As modified, 3 x 500 hp IF Asso 500 liquid-cooled V-12s*
-- * Some sources say 3 x 650 hp AR Pegasus (perhaps a third re-engining?)

Ba.47-Ba.63 - [??]

Ba.64 - 1934 multi-role combat (fighter/bomber/recconaissance) monoplane
- Ba.64: 1st prototype MM 249, 2-seat, 700 hp AR Pegasus, fixed u/c, 4-blade prop
- Ba.64: 2nd prototype MM 250, single-seat, 700 hp Pegasus, semi-retractable u/c
- Ba.64: 1° serie 1936, combine MM 249's open gun position & MM 250's u/c, x 42
-- Ba.64 - 650 hp Alfa Romeo 125 RC.35, 4 x wing-mounted 7.7 mm Breda SAFAT mgs
- Ba.64 dc: Doppio Comando pilot trainer conv'n (incl. 2nd prototype, MM.250)

Ba.65 - 1935 low-wing monoplane multi-role combat aircraft, 12.10m span
- Ba.65 K.14: single-seater, 900 hp IF K.14, 2 x 7.7mm + 2 x 12.7mm Breda-SAFAT
- Ba.65 A.80: single-seater, 1,000 hp Fiat A.80 RC.41 18-cyl radial, same arm't
-- NB: - RAI Ba.65 A.80s were re-engined with 14-cyl. Isotta-Fraschini K.14s
- Ba.65 bis: 2-seat version with open gun position, increased fuel capacity
- Ba.65 bis L: 2-seat version equipped with enclosed Breda L dorsal turret
- Ba.65 [?]: divebomber conversions of 40 Ba.65bis by Caproni Vizzola

--NB: No distinct desig. apparent for export Ba.65s, these were:
- China: 1937, experimental Ba.65 P&W R-1830 conv., but no order placed
- Chile: 1938, 20 with Piaggio P.XI C.40, 17 were single-seat + 3 dual trainer
- Iraq : 1938, 23 x Ba.65 bisL (Fiat A.80 RC.41) + 2 x dual-control trainers
- Spain: 1939, 11 surviving Ba.65s* (of 23) transferred to Ejercito del Aire
-- * Aviazione Legionairia Ba.65s were a mix of K.14- and A.80-powered types
- Soviet Union: 1939 [?] 10 x Ba.65 [unknown variants]
- Portugal : 10 x turreted Ba.65 bisL* (Fiat A.80 RC.41) to Aviação Militar
-- * But at least some (eg #551) were 'doppio comando' dual-control trainers

Ba.66 - [??] possibly a planned Ba.65 deriv.

Ba.67 - [Project] divebomber

Ba.68-Ba.74 - [??]

Ba.75 - 1939 shoulder-wing observation, 1 x 900hp IF 14K radial, 15.60m span
- Ba.75: 1 prototype, intended to use structural components of the Ba.65
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,16973.msg163812.html

Ba.76-Ba.78 - [??]

Ba.79 - 1936 single-engined high-wing cabin monoplane, 1 + 3 pax, 11.61 m span
- Ba.79 : Basic model, 1 x 200 hp Alfa-Romeo 115 air-cooled 6-cyl inline, I-ABFU
- Ba.79S: ['S' suffix = ??], at least 2 examples of Ba.79S - I-ABFT and I-ABFZ

Ba.80-Ba.81 - [??]

Ba.82 - 1937 medium bomber, 2 x 1,000 hp Fiat A.80 R.C.41 18-cyl, 20.80m span
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9168.msg127032.html

Ba.83-Ba.87 - [??]

Ba.88 - 1936 Lince twin-engined heavy fighter/ground attack aircraft, x 149
- Ba.88: 1936 prototype (MM.302) single-tail, 2 x 900 hp IF K.14 radials
-- 1937, Ba.88 mod. for 100 km closed circuit world speed record
- Ba.88: Production version, 2 x 1,000 hp Piaggio P.XI RC.40 radials, x 105*
-- * Ba.88 prod'n divided between Breda (x 81) and IMAM Meridionali (x 24)
- Ba.88 M - Modificata, 1943 Agusta mod attack a/c, 2m+ span, 2 x Fiat A.74, x 3
- Ba.88 bicomando - 2-seat trainer version, raised instructor's seat, 8 built
- Ba.88 bis: [Project] 1938, 2 x Alfa Romeo 135, Caccia Combattimento competiton

Ba.89-Ba.91 - [??] NB: Ba.90 is 'what-if'

Ba.92 - [Project] 1938 single-seat biplane aerobatic trainer, 9.60m span
- Ba.92: 1 x Piaggio P.VIIZ, rejected when IF Beta or CNA D.VIII demanded
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17594.msg167617.html
-- NB: Wind tunnel model only, Breda would later submitted its Ba.205 (below)

Ba.93 - [Project] 2-seat trainer

Ba.94 - [Project] Reconaissance a/c, single-seat Ba.88bis deriv.
- Ba.94: Submitted to 1938 Caccia Combattimento competiton (first round)

Ba.95-Ba.98 - [??]

Ba.99 - [Project] 1938 bomber (Programma Bombardieri Normali), 19.8m span
- Ba.99M: 2 x 1,400 hp Alfa Romeo 135 or 2 x 1,600 Piaggio P.XXII radials
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18166.msg173256.html#msg173256

Ba.100 - [Project] low-wing monoplane fighter, retractable u/c, 11.50m span
- Ba.100: 1 x 1,350hp Alfa-Romeo 135 R.C.32 Tornado 18-cylinder 2-row radial
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2559.msg78773.html#msg78773

Ba.101-Ba.200 - [??]

Ba.201 - 1941 1-seat divebomber, 1 x 1,175 hp DB 601A, 1 x 500 kg bomb, 13 m span
- Ba.201: First scheme, rear-placed cockpit, IF Asso V-12, mock-up built
- Ba.201: Second scheme, fwd-placed cockpit, IF Asso V-12 then 1,050 hp DB601
- Ba.201: 1 prototype (MM.451) flew July 1941, considered too slow w/o gunner

Ba.202 - [Project] 1940 twin-boomed pusher ground attack a/c, fixed u/c
- Ba.202: 1 x 750 hp IF Delta pusher, 2 x 20mm cannon in lower nose

Ba.203 - [??]

Ba.204 - [Project] single-seat low-wing fighter

Ba.205 - 1942 biplane aerobatic trainer, 1 x 280 hp IF Beta RC.10, 9.90m span
- Ba.205: As proposed, all-metal fuselage, more fwd-mounted cockpits
- Ba.205: As built, fabric/steel-tube fuselage, front cockpit covered
-- Ba.205: 2 prototypes (MM.472 & MM.473), elim. from comp. Jan 1943

Ba.206 - [Project] fighter design developed from the Ba.204
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3522.msg27913.html

Ba.207-Ba.209 - [??]

Ba.210 - [Project] development of the Ba.201 divebomber

Ba.211 ... - [??] [?? Ba.277 a real designation ??]

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Apophenia

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Breda-Zappata BZ.3xx/BZ.4xx Series Designations
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3026.msg96463.html

BZ.301 - [Project] medium bomber deriv. from Cant Z.1018 Leone
- BZ.301: Accepted for production but none completed

BZ.302 - [Project] heavy fighter deriv. from Cant Z.1018 Leone

BZ.303 - [Project] night fighter deriv. from Cant Z.1018 bomber
- BZ.303: 2 x 1,450 hp Piaggio P.XV R.C.60 8 x 20 mm + 1 x 12.7 mm
-- BZ.303 prototype under const. 1943, scrapped after armistice

BZ.304 - [Project] 2-engined attack a/c deriv. from Cant Z.1018

BZ.305 - [Project] 4-engined transport deriv. from Cant Z.511

BZ.306 - [Project] 4-engined bomber deriv. from Cant Z.511

BZ.307 - [??]

BZ.308 - 1948 4-engined airliner, 5 + 55 pax, 33.50m span
- BZ.308: 4 x 2,500 hp Bristol Centaurus radials, 1 prototype built
- BZ.308 bis: [Project] pressurized version of BZ.308
- BZ.408: [Project] twin float seaplane version of BZ.308
-- NB: Zappata evolved the BZ.308/BZ.408 from the Z.511/BZ.305
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10453.0.htm

BZ.408-BZ.400: [??]

BZ.401 - [Project] light recce-bomber seaplane deriv. from Z.1018

BZ.402-BZ.407: [??]

BZ.408: [Project] BZ.308 floatplane deriv., see BZ.308 (above)

Breda-Pittoni BP Designation

Breda-Pittoni BP.471 - 1950 twin-engined high-wing,tricycle u/c freighter/airliner
- BP.471: 2 + 18 pax, 2 x 1,200 hp P&W R-1830-92 radials, 23m span, 1 prototype
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12419.msg121782.html

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hesham

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Great work my dear Apophenia,


A.5 as I know a twin boom light transport aircraft
Ba.18 light aircraft developed before Ba.19 (not sure)
Ba.23 light transport aircraft project (not sure)
 

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Thanks Hesham. I've added notes to the Ba.18 and Ba.23. The A.5 as illustrated appears to be identical to the B.1 airliner conversion.
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Apophenia,


and for Breda Ba.207,may be mentioned in Aerofan magazine.
 

hesham

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Hi,


Ba.20/65 machine gun
Ba.37/54 machine gun
Ba.30 machine gun
Ba.35 may be a float use for snow


http://www.aeronautica.difesa.it/storiaTradizione/ufficioStorico/Documents/documenti/Direzione%20Costruzioni%20Aeronautiche.pdf
 

Apophenia

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Hi Hesham. Those Breda weapons would not have received 'Ba.' prefixes.

For example, the mentioned Breda 20/65 was referred to as Cannone-Mitragliera da 20/65 modello 35 (Breda) or simply Breda Mod.35. The 'designation' refers to this automatic cannon's bore (20mm) and its barrel length (65, measured in calibres - ie: multiples of 20mm). So, no 'Ba.20/65' or 'Ba.35'

In the case of the Mitragliera Breda 37/54, this anti-aircraft gun would simply be referred to as the 37/54. Only when the 37/54 'tube' was placed on a gun mount would a Modello designation be applied. In this case, these were the twin-gun Modello 1934 and Mod. 1938 naval mounts, and single-gun Mod. 1939 naval mount and Mod. 1941 Army mount.

For the mitragliatrice Breda modello 30, I'm not aware of any designation other than the Regio Esercito's Mod.30.
 

hesham

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My dear Apophenia,


but the word Modello may be means model,and I think it was not necessary to
but the suffix Ba,and look at that site,you will find anther Modello; 6,11,34 and 41.


http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armata_przeciwpancerna_B%C3%B6hler_4,7_cm
 

Apophenia

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Hi Hesham. You're right, modello just means model. And, in some cases, Breda might certainly have referred to a 'modello 65' meaning what we know as the Ba.65.

My point was that the 'Ba.' prefix was applied by the Regia Aeronautica or Ministero dell'Aeronautica. The small arms and cannons in question here were used by the Regia Marina and the Regio Esercito ... which did not apply those 'Ba.' prefixes.

Instead these organizations applied capital-M 'Modello' numbers with, as mentioned, 'Mod.' or 'M.' followed by the last two digits of the year of issue. So, you will find lots of examples of 'Modello xx' listed out there because this style of nomenclature was applied to every issued form of Italian small arms or piece of ordnance.
 

hesham

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OK my dear Apophenia,


but there is one possibility,the company avoid to use suffix Ba in non aircraft
designs.
 

Apophenia

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Quite so ... and not just a possibility but a certainty. As Skybolt has noted before (and I repeating in post #2), the 'Ba.' prefixes were never assigned by Breda. That 'Ba.' was added on to Breda aircraft designation numbers by the Regia Aeronautica and Ministero dell'Aeronautica.
 

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In the beginning of this there is mentioned that I have written that there were also of the two-seat Breda-Pensuti, powered with an V-8 engine, but after looking to pictures of these aeroplanes I think it was not, what is mentioned in that article, a V-8 but V-4.
Further concerning the A-1 trainer for which the Aviatik was used, is there anyone who can prove this with a picture?


Thanks Jan den Das
 

hesham

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Hi Jan,


I also don't understand well,what they meant,and great pictures about
Breda-Pensuti.
 

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Now some one any proof concerning the Breda A.1 based on the Aviatik/SALM A.3 what Apophenia means in the beginning??????
Who has pictures etc., please show them


Jan
 

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Breda Designations - Anomolies[/size]Early Breda designations used prefix letters followed by numbers. But those numbers were duplicated and, in the case of the B.x series and M.1, do not appear to be consecutive with later Breda type numbers. Further duplication occurred when the designation B.1 was applied to an airliner conversion of a Breda-built Caproni Ca.5 bomber, B.1 having been previously applied to the Breda-Pensuit triplane.When Breda licenced-built aircraft, these usually retained their original designations. Examples are: the Caproni Ca.5 and Ca.44 bombers; the CAB C.1, C.2, SC.4, SC.5 light aircraft, etc. In other cases, where Breda modified an existing type, the designer's name was simply added - as with the Breda Tebaldi-Zari fighter (see also the Breda-Pittoni and Breda-Zappata designations at the end of this list).


B.1 and the Breda-Pensuti: I found in pre war articles that they named the two Breda-Pensuti aeroplanes: Breda-Pensuti 1 and the Breda-Pensuti 2.
On the nose of the Ca.5 conversion stands: Italia B-1, so I think that this was the first Breda 1, the B stands for Breda.


The designer's name was simply added is not correct, both the Pensuti and the Tebaldi were designs made at the Breda factory. Pensuti was sold to Breda and Tebaldi was gone to Breda, thats why the combination.


Further there is mentioned CAB SC-5, thus should be the SCA-5 and there was the SC-4, accoding to the book Aeroplani Caproni (Giann Caproni and His Aircraft, 1910-1983)(Museo Caproni), page 176 ";several Breda SC4 and SCA5 (1927030); so my conclusion is that these two types were Breda designs.
It could be (?) that this were original the Breda 11 and Breda 12 (?).
Maybe its possible that SC is Scuola Caccia and SCA Scuola Caccia Assalto?????


Who has more information/materials about the SC4 and SCA5?
 

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In 1918 Breda signed a licence agrement for Ca.600 (Ca.5).


In 1922 there was a design for an airliner, 16 passagers, span 28 m and length 15,17 and 4 Spa engines.
This was designed by Mario Castoldi and the type was the B.C or Breda-Castoldi also named Castoldi-Breda.
It it was never build.


The designation B.1 was used for the airliner conversion of the Ca.5, on the nose of this aeroplane was painted "Italia B.1". I think, because Breda did not used a prefix, stout for Breda 1.


I prewar articles I found that the Breda-Pensuti was mentioned as Breda-Pensuti 1 and 2.
On pictures its to see B2 and a number, its possible that this was used as constructionnumber?


The at the beginning mentioned CAB types were not build with a number and the SC5 mentioned, would be the SCA5. This one and the SC4 were both Breda designs and build (maybe not all) at the CAB factory.
In book "Aeroplani Caproni - Gianni Caproni and His Aircraft (1910-1983)(Museo Caproni), page 176; several Breda SC4 and SCA5 (1927-30)).
They look a lot on the Breda 9/10.
I think (THINK) that its possible that the SC4 and SCA5, were designed as Breda 11 and 12 ??
Who knows what SC and SCA means?
Could it be Scuola Caccia and Scuola Caccia Assalto?
Who knows and has more information/details/etc. concerning these types?


The Pensuti design and Tebaldi were sold to the Breda factory, that why it became Breda-Pensuti (not the prototype) and Breda-Tebaldi (not Zari, becasu they build the first prototype).


I found Breda M1. Who knows more about this design and what is the source???


Breda A.1: I think that there is never a SAML Aviatik 3 modified and mentioned Breda 1. Its possible that this is one of the historical stories without prove and/or did it ever happened. I tried several forums , without any result.
Who knows more and which sources were used?


Who has more information/history/etc. concerning the SAML Aviatik A.3, several of these type were used at the Breda Flying school, so I am interrested in more details/materials.


Jan
 

hesham

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My dear Jan,


as I know from old encyclopedia,the SAML-3 was built after the WW1 in Breda as A.1.
 

hesham

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Sorry my dear Jan,


just right now is impossible,and I want days to search about it.
 

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A.1 Strange becouse I found in a pre and post war list all the welknown aeoplanes/projects, started with A.2 (monoplane) all the multi engined biplanes bombers, but "NO" A.1, is there any body who can prove that this was build or that it was a project?
I think that some one started this story, without any prove!!!!


A.5 was a project for a 4-engined bomber (2 engines in tandem).


At the beginning of this topic there is mentioned the Breda M-1, 2-engined airliner.
From where comes this story?
Please all the details of this aeroplane?
This is one which I did not find in any pre and post war article/list?
I think it was the Caproni version!!
 

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My conclusion after reading several pre-war articles and postwar.


To start there was an project, mentioned in Jane's 1924, the B-C (also mentioned C-B) Breda-Castoldi, 17 passengers airliner, biplane, 4 engines, could also be build as bomber.


Pensuti:
the single-seater would be the Breda-Pensuti (no numbers to find);
the two-seater the Breda-Pensuti B.2 (at least 3 build);
Tebaldi;
New design with slimmer fuselage based on the Tebaldi-Zari was namend B-T (Breda-Tebaldi)
Airliner based on the Capronibomber was named B-1 "Italia".


After these types Breda started with 2 or A.2


Jan
 

alemilb

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Hi,

these documents are from Breda historical Archives.

Alessandro
 

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hesham

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Excellent Alemilb,


many thanks for sharing us.
 

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hallo,

some additional info about BZ projects.

Breda proposed 4 projects based upon Cz.1018:
BZ.301 high altitude bomber,
BZ.302 high altitude fighter,
BZ.303 night fighter,
BZ.304 anti tank.

Italian Government, Aviation Office, declared to be interested only in BZ.301 and BZ.303 (letter 23/03479 of 1942, December 15 th), asking Breda to develope them and asking also to design versions of BZ.303 as fighter, attack and torpedo and to study also the possibility of a dive bomber.
On 1943, February 2 nd, Aviation Office ordered two BZ.303 and on 1943, August 5 th one additional BZ.303 bis.
The manufacturing was stopped on 1943, September 8 th.

Breda (as it declared to Government in the '50s) also started the manufacturing of the prototype of BZ.305, which was stopped on 1943, September 8 th too.
There is no proof (e.g.documents) regarding an order by Aviation Office for this aircraft, and the manufacturing percentage when stopped is unknown.


Alessandro
 

hesham

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Hi,


here is an Info about BZ.307,it was twin engined project,maybe related to BZ.401 as
a recce seaplane aircraft.


http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/libri/PDF_Libri_By_AVIA/Cento_aeroplani_e_un_grande_cuore.pdf
 

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hesham

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Hi,


we also forget to add,Breda-Pittoni Model-1471;


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20293.msg198439.html#msg198439
 

hesham

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hesham said:
Great work my dear Apophenia,

A.5 as I know a twin boom light transport aircraft
The Breda A.5 ?.
 

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