Brazilian Never-were warship proposals 1920-1940

[awhalen61]

Adding some information on some british export destroyers for Brazil here. Information is from the NMM Vickers notebooks and Friedman.

Unfortunately I do not have any information on the 5"/45 offered on design 794. The design is undated, though it seems to be from 1921-1923 given the dates on surrounding design numbers.

All of the TWY 1737 designs are on the same hull, which is visually similar to HMS Daring.

Design number	669	794	TWY 1737	TWY 1737b	TWY 1737c	TWY 1737d	TWY 1737e
Designer	Vickers	Vickers	Thornycroft, White, and Yarrow	""	""	""	""
Date	1913		1953	Feb 1954	March 1954
Size (length bp)	315/28/8.25	307.5/29.5/9	400oa/
Tonnage	1200	1200	2750t std/3500t loaded	""	""	""	""
SHP	31000	31500	60000
Speed	35	36	35
Main armament	2 4"/40	4 5"/45 QF	3x2 4.5" Mk V	1x2 4.5" Mk V (A)	2x2 4.5" Mk. V (AB)	4x2 Bofors 120 (AB-P-Y)	8x1 4" Mk N
Secondary armament	4 12pdr		Squid	3x1 4" Mk. N (B-PQ)	2x1 4" Mk N (XY)
AA armament		1 3" HA, 4 .303	8x1 40mm Bofors
Torpedoes	6 tubes	2x3 21"	1x5 21"
Notes		Offered to Romania with 4.7"/45 QF (design 807)	Friedman page 130	P and Q turrets offset on the wing abaft the funnel.		P turret on the shelter deck amidships.	A and Y centerline. 2 turrets offset in B, abaft the fore funnel, and the rear superstructure

 

[drwells42]

All the riachuelo variants

https://myplace.frontier.com/~wellsbrothers/Battleships/Riachuelo_Version1.1.html

Thanks for the votes of confidence, everyone.

My purpose was not really to show all the Riachuelo variants. I was merely trying to find the origins of the designs that Vanterpool mentioned. The most extensive documentation on Brazilian battleship development is David Topliss' article "The Brazilian Battleships 1904-1914", Warship International, #3 1988 pp 240-289. It is also worth looking at Ian Sturton's Letter to the Editor Warship International, #3 1970, pp 205-206, as he demonstrates that Armstrong design 781 is in fact the real Riachuelo.

I hadn't discussed this in this thread, as these designs date from 1914, and are a bit out of scope for 1920-1940.

DRW

 

[Tzoli]

Adding some information on some british export destroyers for Brazil here. Information is from the NMM Vickers notebooks and Friedman.

Unfortunately I do not have any information on the 5"/45 offered on design 794. The design is undated, though it seems to be from 1921-1923 given the dates on surrounding design numbers.

All of the TWY 1737 designs are on the same hull, which is visually similar to HMS Daring.

Design number	669	794	TWY 1737	TWY 1737b	TWY 1737c	TWY 1737d	TWY 1737e
Designer	Vickers	Vickers	Thornycroft, White, and Yarrow	""	""	""	""
Date	1913		1953	Feb 1954	March 1954
Size (length bp)	315/28/8.25	307.5/29.5/9	400oa/
Tonnage	1200	1200	2750t std/3500t loaded	""	""	""	""
SHP	31000	31500	60000
Speed	35	36	35
Main armament	2 4"/40	4 5"/45 QF	3x2 4.5" Mk VI	1x2 4.5" Mk VI (A)	2x2 4.5" Mk. VI (AB)	4x2 Bofors 120 (AB-P-Y)	8x1 4" Mk N
Secondary armament	4 12pdr		Squid	3x1 4" Mk. N (B-PQ)	2x1 4" Mk N (XY)
AA armament	2 7mm	1 3" HA, 4 .303	8x1 40mm Bofors
Torpedoes	2x3 21"	2x3 21"	1x5 21"
Notes		Offered to Romania with 4.7"/45 QF (design 807)	Friedman page 130	P and Q turrets offset on the wing abaft the funnel.		P turret on the shelter deck amidships.	A and Y centerline. 2 turrets offset in B, abaft the fore funnel, and the rear superstructure

In case of design 669 isn't that more like twin torpedo tubes? the first triple launcher was introduced on the Admiralty V class of 1916/17.
Based on design number and dedicated 3" AA gun the 794 was likely from post WW1, 1920's proposal say 1925 also 5" QF guns? I do not know if Vickers had any such gun designs at the time, the ones used by the RN were of BL ones and none of them /45 calibre and Armstrong's were of short barrel likely older designs.

There is no such gun as QF 4,5" Mark VI except if you count the Mark 8 Mod 0 and 1
To my knowledge of the 1737 series, had these kind of armaments:
plain 1737: 3x2 4,5" QF Mark V
A: 1x2 4,5" QF Mark V, 3x1 4"/62 Mark Q (Mark N is an 1930's gun)
B: 2x2 4,5" QF Mark V
C: 4x2 Bofors 120mm and 2x1 4"/62 Mark Q
D: 8x1 4"/62 Mark Q
I do not know of an E variant

 

[awhalen61]

[cut for brevity]

good catches on the gun designation - Friedman's cruisers calls the Mk. Q the Mk. N and I mistyped on the 113mm - Friedman specifies the Daring-type Mk. V mounts in his short section on TWY 1737, which is on Pg. 130 in British Destroyers and Frigates: The Second World War and After, including the weird e variant with the 4" setup.

as for 669 - Thurston's notebook at the NMM specifies 6 tubes and 8 torpedoes total, with no hints to the layout. given the size of the ship, though, a 3x2 centerline layout seems likely, though the number of spare torpedoes doesn't seem to line up either way

on 794- I have to imagine this was a new design, because Thurston's notebook does specify 5"/45 QF mounts (and in this case, the triple torpedo mounts are specifically noted as well)!

 

[awhalen61]

Here are the relevant pages from Friedman - and the reason why I mislabeled the guns in my original post