Brazilian Never-were warship proposals 1920-1940

[ptdockyard]

I am very much enjoying the Argentine thread and have some new projects to make now. I an very curious as to the design studies for or by Brazil during the same period. Were they also looking at larger, modern battleships as well?

I read in one source ( Avalanche Press) that there was some consideration in Brazil to convert one or two merchant ships into carriers but that is the only "reference" I can find.

Dave

 

[Tzoli]

Let's see:
According to my knowledge these were the Brazilian never-were warships:
Indigenous designs:
Submarines:
S-NAC-1 - Hunter-Killer Submarine design from 1995
S-NAC-2 - Nuclear Submarine Design from 1995
Destroyers:
Design 1915

Export designs for Brazil:
Destroyers:
Armstrong Design 533 from 1907
Vickers Design 669 from 1913
Thornycroft-White-Yarrow 1888 from 1954
Thornycroft Design for Brazil from 1954

Cruisers:
Scout:
Armstrong Design 650 from 1910
Light:
Vickers Design 1010 from 1923
Vickers Design 1013 from 1923
Armoured:
Armstrong Design 352 from 1902
Armstrong Design 405 from 1903
Armstrong Design 406 from 1903
Vickers Design 172 from 1906
Vickers Design 172A from 1906
Armstrong Design 532 from 1907
Armstrong Design 575 from 1907
Heavy:
Vickers Design 835 from 1923
Vickers Design 1045 from 1933

Heavy Ships:
Monitors:
Riverine:
Armstrong Design 544 from 1907/08
Armstrong Design 547 from 1907/08
Armstrong Design 554 from 1907/08
Armstrong Design 555 from 1907/08
Armstrong Design A for Brazil from 1911
Armstrong Design B for Brazil from 1911
Armstrong Design C for Brazil from 1911
Armstrong Design D for Brazil from 1911
Armstrong Design E for Brazil from 1911
Armstrong Design 712 from 1911
Armstrong Design 713 from 1911
Armstrong Design 723 from 1911
Coastal Battleship:
Armstrong Design 531 from 1907
Battleships:
Armstrong Design 364 from 1902
Vickers Design 188 from 1906
Vickers Design 188A from 1906
Armstrong Design 405 from 1906
Armstrong Design 406 from 1906
Armstrong Design for Brazil from 1907
Armstrong Design 532 from 1907
Armstrong Design 640 from 1910
Armstrong Design 641 from 1910
Armstrong Design 643 from 1910
Armstrong Design 644 from 1910
Armstrong Design 645 from 1910
Armstrong Design 653 from 1910
Armstrong Design for Brazil from 1911
Armstrong Design 682 from 1911
Armstrong Design 683 from 1911
Armstrong Design 684 from 1911
Armstrong Design 684A from 1911
Armstrong Design 685 from 1911
Armstrong Design 685A from 1911
Armstrong Design 686 from 1911
Armstrong Design 687 from 1911
Armstrong Design 688 from 1911
Armstrong Design 689 from 1911
Armstrong Design 690 from 1911
Armstrong Design 690A from 1911
(Note HMS Agincourt ex TCG Sultan Osman I ex ARB Rio de Janeiro was Design 690B )
Armstrong Design 781 from 1913
Armstrong Design 782 from 1913
Armstrong Design 783 from 1913
Armstrong Design 784 from 1913
Armstrong Design 785 from 1913
Armstrong Design 786 from 1913
Armstrong Design 787 from 1913
Armstrong Design 788 from 1913
Vickers Design 670 from 1913
Vickers Design 671 from 1913
Vickers Design 672 from 1913
Vickers Design 673 from 1913
Vickers Design 688 from 1913
Vickers Design 689 from 1913

And the Riachuelo class designs (4 variants to my knowledge)

As usual ask for design and I provide more data

 

[Brickmuppet]

Armstrong Design 531 from 1907: Was that the little three turret thing that was almost a monitor?

 

[awhalen61]

Thornycroft-White-Yarrow 1888 from 1954
Thornycroft Design for Brazil from 1954

These are the two I'm interested in. Since the British Martitime Museum is closed, I'm wondering if anyone has information/sketches/blueprints beyond what's in Friedman's book.

 

[Tzoli]

I only have info about the TWY 1954 designs as in Norm,an Friedman's book.

As for Armstrong Design 531 of 1907:
Dimensions: Unknown
Displacement: 4.500tons standard, 5.000tons full load
Armament and Armour are unknown.

I will check the Armstrong papers if it shows any more data but I can't guarantee it has more data.

 

[ptdockyard]

I have the drawing from Friedman of Vickers 1045. How about Vickers Design 835 from 1923?

Did Brazil pursue any battleship designs after WW1?

Dave

 

[Tzoli]

The only paper mentions Design 531:

 

[Akaloso Dudu]

Gentleman,

Some brazilian naval plans from "The Brazilian Navy Naval Plans Refit Policy, 1904-1945" - WALLDMANN Jr.:

1904 - Ad. Noronha's Plan: 3 Battleships, 15,000 t, 10' guns; 3 Armoured Cruisers, 9,000 t, 10' guns; 6 Destroyers, 400 t; 3 Submarines.
1906 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 3 Battleships, 19,000 t, 12' guns; 3 Scout Cruisers, 3,000 t; 15 Destroyers 600t.
1911 - Proposal for the German Krupp for the 'Rio de Janeiro' battleship.
1918 - Ad. Pereira's Plan: 2 Fast Battleships; 2 Cruisres, 5,000 t; 5 Destroyers, 1,200 t; 3 Submarines, 600 t, 6 Submarines, 250 t.
1923 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 1 Battleship, 35,000 t, 16' guns; 1 Heavy Cruiser, 10,000 t, 8' guns; 1 Carrier (conversion from a merchant ship); 5 Destroyers; 5 Submarines.
1923 - Sen. Burlamaqui's Plan: 4 Battleships, 35,000 t; 8 Cruisers, 7,500 t; 16 Destroyers, 1,000 t; 24 Submarines, 250 t.
1924 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 1 Cruiser, 10,000 t; 5 Destroyers; 5 Submarines.
1925 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 3 Cruisers; 15 Destroyers; 15 Submarines.
1932 - Ad. Guimaraes' Plan: 2 Cruisers, 8,000 t; 9 Destroyers, 1,500 t; 6 Submarines, 900 t; 6 Minelayers, 600 t.
1938 - Governament Plan: 3 American Cruisers (Omaha Class), 7,500 t; 18 Destroyers, 1,500 t; 9 Submerines, 700 t; 12 Minelayers, 600 t.
1942 - Ad. Ghilhem's Plan: 3 British Cruisers (Ajax Class); 6 Destroyers.
1945 - American Mission Plan: 2 Battledhips (Nevada Class); 2 Carriers (Independence Class); 4 Cruisers (Cleveland Class); 21 Destroyers (Fletcher Class); 13 Submarines.

I hope we can share more information/drawings about these ships, and from the others minor navies .
I'm particullary interested in the cruisers mentioned by Tzoli.
I have some especifications about others possible brazilian projected cruiser:
1908 - Design Armstrong for an Armoured Cruiser - 9,500 tons. Six 10in and twelve 4,7in.
1913 - Design Vickers 673 (Light armoured cruiser) - 4,700 tons, 430ft x 46 1/2ft x 15 1/2ft. 28 knots on 37,000 SHP. Ten 6in/50, four 6pdr and two submerged 21in TT.
Design Vickers 682 (Dartmouth type)
Design Vickers 686 - 3,500 tons, 410ft x 39 1/2ft x 13 1/2ft. 28 knots on 30,000 SHP. Two 6in and six 4in.

 

[COLDOWN]

WALLDMANN is a genius. I love his works.

 

[awhalen61]

1945 - American Mission Plan: 2 Battledhips (Nevada Class); 2 Carriers (Independence Class); 4 Cruisers (Cleveland Class); 21 Destroyers (Fletcher Class); 13 Submarines.

Brazil had been asking for these ships since 1942. I suppose nobody ever told them that the second Nevada class, USS Oklahoma, was still capsized in Pearl Harbor!

Gentleman,

Some brazilian naval plans from "The Brazilian Navy Naval Plans Refit Policy, 1904-1945" - WALLDMANN Jr.:

1918 - Ad. Pereira's Plan: 2 Fast Battleships;
1923 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 1 Battleship, 35,000 t, 16' guns; 1 Heavy Cruiser, 10,000 t, 1 Carrier (conversion from a merchant ship);
1923 - Sen. Burlamaqui's Plan: 4 Battleships, 35,000 t; 8 Cruisers, 7,500 t;
1924 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 1 Cruiser, 10,000 t; 5 Destroyers; 5 Submarines.
1925 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 3 Cruisers;
1932 - Ad. Guimaraes' Plan: 2 Cruisers, 8,000 t;
1938 - Governament Plan: 3 American Cruisers (Omaha Class), 7,500 t;

Did these designs progress past this point?

 

[gral_rj]

Some brazilian naval plans from "The Brazilian Navy Naval Plans Refit Policy, 1904-1945" - WALLDMANN Jr.:

Do you have the ISBN for this?

 

[ptdockyard]

Brazil was looking for a 35,000 ton BB?

 

[Akaloso Dudu]

Gentleman,

I can’t give you much more information. ‘The Brazilian Navy naval refit policy, 1904-1945’ from WALDMANN Jr. is available in www.academia.edu, a site for academic papers. It’s free. The article is unfortunately in portuguese, and don’t give any other informantion about specifications of the warships. I could have missed something in the translation, but according to the text all the related plans weren’t implemented for financial reasons.
Another good source of information - in english - is the article ‘Brazilian Dreadnoughts, 1904-1914’ from TOPLISS. It is available in www.jstor.org. This site is free for reading online, but you have to pay for any download.
Some time ago I received the image bellow, of a project for a brazilian battleship just before the ‘Minas Geraes’ design, that doens’t appear in any of the sources I have. I don’t know exactly the name of the book it comes from, but it’s about Armstronsg’s designs. I’d apreciate if someone could give more details about it.
As I said I’m interested in any information/drawings about these cruisers designs related by Tzoli:
Armstrong Design 352 from 1902; Armstrong Design 405 from 1903; Armstrong Design 406 from 1903; Vickers Design 172 from 1906; Vickers Design 172A from 1906; Armstrong Design 532 from 1907; Armstrong Design 575 from 1907; Armstrong Design 650 from 1910; Vickers Design 835 from 1923; Vickers Design 1010 from 1923; Vickers Design 1013 from 1923 and Vickers Design 1045 from 1933.

 

[awhalen61]

Gentleman,

I can’t give you much more information. ‘The Brazilian Navy naval refit policy, 1904-1945’ from WALDMANN Jr. is available in www.academia.edu, a site for academic papers. It’s free. The article is unfortunately in portuguese, and don’t give any other informantion about specifications of the warships. I could have missed something in the translation, but according to the text all the related plans weren’t implemented for financial reasons.
Another good source of information - in english - is the article ‘Brazilian Dreadnoughts, 1904-1914’ from TOPLISS. It is available in www.jstor.org. This site is free for reading online, but you have to pay for any download.
Some time ago I received the image bellow, of a project for a brazilian battleship just before the ‘Minas Geraes’ design, that doens’t appear in any of the sources I have. I don’t know exactly the name of the book it comes from, but it’s about Armstronsg’s designs. I’d apreciate if someone could give more details about it.
As I said I’m interested in any information/drawings about these cruisers designs related by Tzoli:
Armstrong Design 352 from 1902; Armstrong Design 405 from 1903; Armstrong Design 406 from 1903; Vickers Design 172 from 1906; Vickers Design 172A from 1906; Armstrong Design 532 from 1907; Armstrong Design 575 from 1907; Armstrong Design 650 from 1910; Vickers Design 835 from 1923; Vickers Design 1010 from 1923; Vickers Design 1013 from 1923 and Vickers Design 1045 from 1933.

That design comes from "Warships for Export, Armstrong 1867-1927" by Brook, available here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WrikWD7KX7i3n6v6_227_l1LMqdPIk6I/view?usp=sharing

 

[gral_rj]

I can’t give you much more information. ‘The Brazilian Navy naval refit policy, 1904-1945’ from WALDMANN Jr. is available in www.academia.edu, a site for academic papers. It’s free. The article is unfortunately in portuguese, and don’t give any other informantion about specifications of the warships. I could have missed something in the translation, but according to the text all the related plans weren’t implemented for financial reasons.

Managed to get Waldmann Jr. article, thanks. For those who can't, for some reason, access academia.edu, the article was featured on Revista Navigator, a Brazilian naval history magazine printed by the Brazilian Navy.

As for plans not being implemented for financial reasons, that is something that has happened to most modernization efforts of the Brazilian Navy.

 

[gral_rj]

Sorry for the double post. Some details on the above-mentioned article.

Regarding the 1938 plan, the Brazilian government sought to acquire from British firms in 1940 what are described as "7,500 T cruisers", and one or two paragraphs later as "similar to (HMS)Ajax", which was a Leander-class cruiser. I assume that, after Brazil failed to acquire Wickes-class DDs from the US in 1937, they decided to buy British cruisers.

 

[Tzoli]

Friedman's books and the d'Eyncourt papers only contains a limited number of drawings so I can only provide with data:

Armstrong Design 352 ACR from 1902:
134,11 (pp) x 17,37 x 6,55m
8.300tons standard
Armour and Armament unknown

Armstrong Design 405 ACR from 1903:
128,02 (pp) x 18,9 x 7,32m
9.700tons standard
20.000shp VTE, 2 shafts, 43km/h
203mm belt, 25mm deck
6x2 7,5" (Probably /50 Armstrong Mk A)
12x1 3" (Probably /50 Armstrong Mk EE)
12x1 47mm (Probably /50 QF Mk I)
4x1 457mm Torpedoes

Armstrong Design 406 ACR from 1903:
137,16 (pp) x 18,9 x 7,32m
10.250tons standard
20.000shp VTE, 2 shafts, 43km/h
203mm belt, 25mm deck
2x2,8x1 7,5" (Probably /50 Armstrong Mk A)
12x1 3" (Probably /50 Armstrong Mk EE)
12x1 47mm (Probably /50 QF Mk I)
no known Torpedoes

Armstrong Design 532 ACR from 1907
10.000tons standard
No other info

Armstrong Design 575 ACR from 1907
124,97 (pp) x 20,73m
9.500tons standard
3x2 10" (Probably /45 Armstrong Mk W)
12x1 4,7" (Probably /50 Armstrong Mk CC)



Vickers Design 172 ACR from 1906:
128 (pp) x 19,35 x 7,16m
9.500tons standard
43km/h
203mm belt
6x2 7,5" (Probably /45 Vickers Mk D)
10x1 3" (Probably /50 Vickers Mk A)
4x1 457mm Torpedoes

Vickers Design 172A ACR from 1906:
129,54 (pp) x 19,5 x 7,24m
9.950tons standard
43km/h
203mm belt
2x2,4x1 10" (Probably /50 Vickers Mk C)
10x1 3" (Probably /50 Vickers Mk A)
4x1 457mm Torpedoes




Armstrong Design 650 CS from 1910:
128,02 (pp) x 13,11 x 4,34m
4.000tons standard
30.000shp ST, 4 shafts, 54km/h
19mm deck, 38mm Slopes
8x1 6" (Probably /50 Armstrong Mk NN)
6x1 47mm (Probably /50 Armstrong Mk I)
2x1 533mm Torpedoes




Vickers Design 835 CA from 1923:
172,21 (pp) x 17,53 x 5,26m
9.875tons standard
60.000shp ST, 4 shafts, 57km/h
76mm Machinery, 38mm Magazine Belt (or the other way around)
4x2 8" (Probably /50 Vickers Mk D)
6x1 105mm AA (Probably /41 Bofors m/25)
2x3 533mm Torpedoes

Vickers Design 1045 CA from 1933:
173,74 (pp) 182,88 (wl) 184,71 (oa) x 18,5 x 5,5m
9.100tons standard, 11.540tons full load
80.000shp ST, 4 shafts, 59km/h
100mm belt, 38mm deck
3x2 8" (Probably /50 Vickers Mk D)
4x2 4,7" (Probably /50 Vickers Mk A)
4x1 3" AA (Probably /45 QF HA Mk II)
4x2 533mm Torpedoes
2x aircraft




Vickers Design 1010 CL from 1923:
158,5 (pp) 167,64 (wl) 170,7 (oa) x 16,05 x 4,8m
8.300tons standard
76.000shp ST, 4 shafts, 61km/h, 9.300km
Armour unknown
3x2,1x1 6" (Probably /50 Vickers Mk U)
2x1 4" AA (Probably /45 QF Mk V)
4x3 533mm Torpedoes

Vickers Design 1013 CL from 1923:
139 (pp) 147,76 (wl) 148,9 (oa) x 14,17 x 4,47m
6.900tons standard
50.000shp ST, 4 shafts, 57km/h
Armour unknown
2x2,1x1 6" (Probably /50 Vickers Mk U)
2x1 4" AA (Probably /45 QF Mk V)
4x3 533mm Torpedoes

 

[Kugelblitz]

1904 - Ad. Noronha's Plan: 3 Battleships, 15,000 t, 10' guns; 3 Armoured Cruisers, 9,000 t, 10' guns; 6 Destroyers, 400 t; 3 Submarines.
1906 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 3 Battleships, 19,000 t, 12' guns; 3 Scout Cruisers, 3,000 t; 15 Destroyers 600t.
1911 - Proposal for the German Krupp for the 'Rio de Janeiro' battleship.
1918 - Ad. Pereira's Plan: 2 Fast Battleships; 2 Cruisres, 5,000 t; 5 Destroyers, 1,200 t; 3 Submarines, 600 t, 6 Submarines, 250 t.
1923 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 1 Battleship, 35,000 t, 16' guns; 1 Heavy Cruiser, 10,000 t, 8' guns; 1 Carrier (conversion from a merchant ship); 5 Destroyers; 5 Submarines.
1923 - Sen. Burlamaqui's Plan: 4 Battleships, 35,000 t; 8 Cruisers, 7,500 t; 16 Destroyers, 1,000 t; 24 Submarines, 250 t.
1924 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 1 Cruiser, 10,000 t; 5 Destroyers; 5 Submarines.
1925 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 3 Cruisers; 15 Destroyers; 15 Submarines.
1932 - Ad. Guimaraes' Plan: 2 Cruisers, 8,000 t; 9 Destroyers, 1,500 t; 6 Submarines, 900 t; 6 Minelayers, 600 t.
1938 - Governament Plan: 3 American Cruisers (Omaha Class), 7,500 t; 18 Destroyers, 1,500 t; 9 Submerines, 700 t; 12 Minelayers, 600 t.
1942 - Ad. Ghilhem's Plan: 3 British Cruisers (Ajax Class); 6 Destroyers.
1945 - American Mission Plan: 2 Battledhips (Nevada Class); 2 Carriers (Independence Class); 4 Cruisers (Cleveland Class); 21 Destroyers (Fletcher Class); 13 Submarines.

Can anybody shed more light on these plans?
Were they mostly admirals' wish list or politically sanctioned ambitions? While much of the 1906 plan turned into hardware, the Burlamaqui plan must have been more dream than plan? The American mission plan; the sellers plan more than the prospective buyers plan?

 

[gral_rj]

1904 - Ad. Noronha's Plan: 3 Battleships, 15,000 t, 10' guns; 3 Armoured Cruisers, 9,000 t, 10' guns; 6 Destroyers, 400 t; 3 Submarines.
1906 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 3 Battleships, 19,000 t, 12' guns; 3 Scout Cruisers, 3,000 t; 15 Destroyers 600t.
1911 - Proposal for the German Krupp for the 'Rio de Janeiro' battleship.
1918 - Ad. Pereira's Plan: 2 Fast Battleships; 2 Cruisres, 5,000 t; 5 Destroyers, 1,200 t; 3 Submarines, 600 t, 6 Submarines, 250 t.
1923 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 1 Battleship, 35,000 t, 16' guns; 1 Heavy Cruiser, 10,000 t, 8' guns; 1 Carrier (conversion from a merchant ship); 5 Destroyers; 5 Submarines.
1923 - Sen. Burlamaqui's Plan: 4 Battleships, 35,000 t; 8 Cruisers, 7,500 t; 16 Destroyers, 1,000 t; 24 Submarines, 250 t.
1924 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 1 Cruiser, 10,000 t; 5 Destroyers; 5 Submarines.
1925 - Ad. Alexandrino's Plan: 3 Cruisers; 15 Destroyers; 15 Submarines.
1932 - Ad. Guimaraes' Plan: 2 Cruisers, 8,000 t; 9 Destroyers, 1,500 t; 6 Submarines, 900 t; 6 Minelayers, 600 t.
1938 - Governament Plan: 3 American Cruisers (Omaha Class), 7,500 t; 18 Destroyers, 1,500 t; 9 Submerines, 700 t; 12 Minelayers, 600 t.
1942 - Ad. Ghilhem's Plan: 3 British Cruisers (Ajax Class); 6 Destroyers.
1945 - American Mission Plan: 2 Battledhips (Nevada Class); 2 Carriers (Independence Class); 4 Cruisers (Cleveland Class); 21 Destroyers (Fletcher Class); 13 Submarines.

Can anybody shed more light on these plans?
Were they mostly admirals' wish list or politically sanctioned ambitions? While much of the 1906 plan turned into hardware, the Burlamaqui plan must have been more dream than plan? The American mission plan; the sellers plan more than the prospective buyers plan?

Details are forthcoming in Mr. Waldmann Jr.'s articles, mentioned above. They're only in Portuguese, though.

Mr. Burlamaqui was a navy captain who became a senator, and was a supporter of a strong, Mahanian model Navy. His plan was a proposal he sent to the Brazilian Senate. So, yes, more dream than plan. Admiral Antônio Gomes Pereira's 1918 plan was a plan to try to counter the block obsolescence of the 1910 Fleet, didn't proceed due to a lack of money(not many were buying coffee in late 1918).

1923 Admiral Alexandrino de Alencar's plan had the same objective, and didn't proceed again because the lack of money(the price of coffee had recovered by late 1919, which meant Brazil had money again - money which was spent on public works; by late 1920-early 1921, a recession in Europe and US meant Brazil was once more short in income, and what money was available was directed to finish the above-mentioned public works; the following administration, which brought back Alexandrino as Navy Minister was committed to reducing public expense). Alexandrino would scale down this plan to one which would fit within the government's purse in 1924. After that, he managed to get some Brazilian States to pledge money for Navy expansion, which resulted in the 1925 Plan. The 1924 and 1925 plans were squashed because Navy officers were involved in rebellions against President Artur Bernardes, who decided not to improve the Navy's capacities after that.

The American Mission Plan was more of a prospective buyers' plan, although it had some input from US officers stationed in Brazil; main reason it failed was because, after late 1943, US policy changed from propping up Brazil to balancing Brazil and Argentina(and Chile, as well).

 

[COLDOWN]

Hello

Any info about the Vickers Design 1058 or 1059?

• Heavy Cruiser
• +-1.937
• 10.000 t
• 6 (3x2) 203mm

Chilean sauce says it was offered to Brazil (and Chile).

Spoiler

Warships 2010 pdf???

Regards

 

[Akaloso Dudu]

Gentlemen,

I’d like to thanks gral-rj for correcting and completing my post. Following his indications, I checked the Revista Navigator site and found at least three more interesting articles about the brazilian naval plans. The Brazilian armaments politic in the begging of XX century and the Naval Program of 1904 and 1906 by Santana de Araújo – 2005; Brazilian Navy efforts to retake the technologic capacity thru military naval by Santos Val – 2013 and American influence over the Brazilian Navy from the American Naval Mission in 1922 by Silva do Amaral – 2014. You can also read Battleship Diplomacy in South America: 1905-1925 by Livermore published in the University of Chicago Press Journal vol. 16, nº 1 – 1944 and Unexplored Opportunities in Latin American Maritime History by Scheina published in The Americas vol. 48 nº 3 – 1992. The first three texts are in portuguese and the last two in english. According to these authors, USA had a big interest in turning Latin America a field for its military influence, so there’s a great probability that these naval plans called for americans designs. As gral-rj explained all of them weren’t continued by financial reasons.

Scheina indicates in his article as sources of research Historia Marítima Argentina and Revista Del Mar for Argentine’s informations; História Naval Brasileira and Subsídios para a História Marítima do Brasil for Brazil’s informations; La Armada Del Chile - by Fuenzalida Bade and El Poder Naval Chileno – by Collados Núñes for Chile’s informations and Historia Marítima Del Peru and Fuentes para el Estudio de la Historia Naval del Peru – by J. Elias for Peru’s informations. In english he suggests the british The Marine´s Mail and the american The American Neptune. I keep looking for these publications. Good hunting for you.

Finnally I’d like to thanks Tzoli for his good content as always, and ask if you have the intention to finish the drawings of the argentinian never were warship designs and proposals, stopped in Vickers design 293, and do the same for the brazilians designs list.

 

[Tzoli]

Friedman does not specifically mentions Designs 1058 but it mentions design 1059:

 

[COLDOWN]

Hi. I was collecting information on destroyers in Brazil during this same period and I came across a detail that is not mentioned much.
The recently built class of destroyers Marcilio Dias could not receive the armament for its destroyers from the United States due to the threat posed by the German submarines (they supposedly sank the freighter carrying the guns for this class).
So the Brazilian government decided to send these 3 destroyers to collect the weapons themselves. For this they were armed with the secondary battery of the Minas Gerais battleships, the Armstrong-Elswick Mark III 120/50 guns. When they get to the United States guns were changed for the 127/38 Mark 12.
Here you can read a source in its original language:
"Durante a guerra, os contratorpedeiros Marcílio Dias ficaram prontos. Inicialmente, receberam como armamento provisório os antigos canhões de 4,7 polegadas do Minas Geraes, partindo em seguida aos Estados Unidos para receberem o seu armamento definitivo". >>> "Bittencourt, 2005:229. Segundo Mendonça (1986:36), os Marcílios só receberam armamento nos Estados Unidos por causa do receio que os navios que transportassem o armamento fossem afundados no caminho para o Brasil. Tal medo vinha do torpedeamento, algum tempo antes, de um transporte carregado com equipamento para os navios. Ao chegar aos Estados Unidos, o armamento a ser instalado foi mudado, por causa de alterações no navio feitas pelos brasileiros". Source: "A construção naval durante a Segunda Guerra Mundial" Ludolf Waldmann Júnior.
If anyone has pictures of these vessels with those guns, those would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Tzoli]

For anybody who wish to study the Sao Paulo, here are the official deck plans:

平賀譲デジタルアーカイブ · Bragilian BattleShip "St.Paulo" · 東京大学学術資産等アーカイブズ共用サーバ

iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp

 

[Dilandu]

1945 - American Mission Plan: 2 Battledhips (Nevada Class); 2 Carriers (Independence Class); 4 Cruisers (Cleveland Class); 21 Destroyers (Fletcher Class); 13 Submarines.

Hmmmm, interesting: where they supposed to obtain the second Nevada-class?

 

[gral_rj]

1945 - American Mission Plan: 2 Battledhips (Nevada Class); 2 Carriers (Independence Class); 4 Cruisers (Cleveland Class); 21 Destroyers (Fletcher Class); 13 Submarines.

Hmmmm, interesting: where they supposed to obtain the second Nevada-class?

That was something that was never explained. I suspect that they were using "Nevada-class" as a shorthand for "Standard BB".

 

[Dilandu]

That was something that was never explained. I suspect that they were using "Nevada-class" as a shorthand for "Standard BB".

A probability, yes. Unfortunately, "standard battleships" were... not exactly interesting for export, due to their low speed.

 

[gral_rj]

That was something that was never explained. I suspect that they were using "Nevada-class" as a shorthand for "Standard BB".

A probability, yes. Unfortunately, "standard battleships" were... not exactly interesting for export, due to their low speed.

Oh, I agree, but that was they were asking for(and, to be frank, they would be newer than São Paulo and Minas Gerais). They should have asked for Alaskas.

 

[Dilandu]

Oh, I agree, but that was they were asking for(and, to be frank, they would be newer than São Paulo and Minas Gerais). They should have asked for Alaskas.

Yep, it actually might be interesting to consider their sale as AH scenario...

 

[Tzoli]

This might add some details to the Brazilian projects:

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[ptdockyard]

I converted a 1/1200 3D print of HMS York to the 1045 as the Brazilian Admiralte Bassano. I used the camouflage scheme from the WW1 USS New Jersey

Dave G

 

[Tzoli]

It is interesting to know that before Brazil sold Rio de Janeiro which then became Sultan Osman I and then HMS Agincourt, Armstrong offered to modify the design to mount 7x1 15"/45 (Note /45 calibre and not the /42 of the RN finally adopted.) in place of the twin 12" turrets to increase it's firepower! the /45 guns would surely be of Vickers origin.

 

[alexi]

It is interesting to know that before Brazil sold Rio de Janeiro which then became Sultan Osman I and then HMS Agincourt, Armstrong offered to modify the design to mount 7x1 15"/45 (Note /45 calibre and not the /42 of the RN finally adopted.) in place of the twin 12" turrets to increase it's firepower! the /45 guns would surely be of Vickers origin.

Literally a meme ship

 

[Tzoli]

how so?

 

[gral_rj]

It is interesting to know that before Brazil sold Rio de Janeiro which then became Sultan Osman I and then HMS Agincourt, Armstrong offered to modify the design to mount 7x1 15"/45 (Note /45 calibre and not the /42 of the RN finally adopted.) in place of the twin 12" turrets to increase it's firepower! the /45 guns would surely be of Vickers origin.

Probably the same guns as the ones that were going to be installed on Riachuelo, they ended being sold as coastal artillery guns for the Spanish(I think the Spanish retired them in the 2000s).

 

[ptdockyard]

Would they have modified the turrets or made new ones?

Dave G

 

[Tzoli]

As the 18"/40 BL Mark I cannons in single turrets (and I presume the single 20"/40 too) used a slightly modified 15" twin turret a twin 12" could easily handle a single 15" barrel. But as for new turrets or modifications of the old ones is a good question, the answer would lay in cost and time. modifying the existing twin turrets to a single one is fast and cheaper but then you had to fill up the existing gun holes and cut a new one, or just simply replace the entire face section of the turret. If new turrets had to be manufactured, the old ones could be used for a smaller sized Glorious class or for seven such monitors.

 

[COLDOWN]

Let me spam this Brazilian Dreadnoughts from 1904-1914 article.
It is outside the timeline proposed here but it may be of interest.
It's in spanish but you can use google translate

 

[Tzoli]

W

Let me spam this Brazilian Dreadnoughts from 1904-1914 article.
It is outside the timeline proposed here but it may be of interest.
It's in spanish but you can use google translate

hich BB designs are those?

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/brazilian-never-were-warship-proposals-1920-1940.34029/#post-398297

 

[COLDOWN]

W

Let me spam this Brazilian Dreadnoughts from 1904-1914 article.
It is outside the timeline proposed here but it may be of interest.
It's in spanish but you can use google translate

hich BB designs are those?

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/brazilian-never-were-warship-proposals-1920-1940.34029/#post-398297

This is not specified in the original articles, but they do have similarities to the following:

• Vickers 188A (Minas Geraes class as pre-dreadnought, 12x254).
• Armstrong 494A (Minas Geraes class as dreadnought, 12x305).
• Armstrong 653 (Rio de Janeiro as super-dreadnought, 12x356).
• Armstrong 690A (Rio de Janeiro as dreadnought, 14x305)
• "Original Design" (Riachuelo proposal, 8x381)

However, when comparing the schemes between the British and the Brazilian designs, some minor differences are evident in certain equipment (funnels, etc.).

Let me know if I was wrong on any of these.