Boeing Dassault F-XX

Antonio

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From Aerograph 1. F-16. Jay Miller. ISBN. 0-942548-01-9. pg 14

" In February of 1971, Boeing became the third firm to submit a proposal (to F-XX program). Teaming with Dassault, whose attempts to warm the AF to the idea of buying the Mirage F-1 had met with a rather cool reception, Boeing proposed reengining the F-1 with a GE J79-19.
The AF reaction to his idea was also less than enthusiastic. The F-1, even with the J79 engine, offered no apparent improvement over the F-4 and, in some areas was actually a step backward in capability. Shortly thereafter, the Boeing team was convinced to abandon further work and concentrate on a totally new airplane" (Model 908)
 

Deino

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Hi ... I think this is a 3-side drawing ... but I'm not sure !
 

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Schorsch

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Deino said:
Hi ... I think this is a 3-side drawing ... but I'm not sure !

It is definetly a Mirage F.1, but the only change is the exhaust nozzle (seems logical, other differences to the F.1 design are not mentioned). But the nozzle looks very likely to the F-100 of the F-16 rather than the J-79 (Phantom, Starfighter).
Can it possibly be that Boeing proposed a Mirage F.1 with F-100 engine? F-XX was the LWF program?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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An F100 would be rather oversized for the Mirage F1- it would require significant enlargement of the rear fuselage.
 

Antonio

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Wow!

Great comment Schorsch!!


This pic is mine. I produced this drawing in 2003-4 (I can't remember). It is not the real Boeing-Dassault but only a fake I posted in my former MSN Group. As you correctly noted is an F-100 engined Mirage F-1 with Sidewinders. I was trying to imagine how an advanced Boeing-Mirage contender to LWF could look like.

Boeing-Dassault F1 engine was J-79. No further development existed.

I have plans to produce a new drawing about the J79 design.

According to Jay Miller's F-16 book:

"F-XX program started in 1971 to develop a light, highly maneuverable fighter that could be produced at a cost significantly below that of the F-14 and that could be used in combination with, or as a substitute for, the F-15". The F-XX was to be also an ideal choice for NATO and allied nations.
(There was an ancestor program in 1969 for lightweight/austere fighter called IFA_International Fighter Aircraft or Free World Fighter. Northrop F-5-21 and a lightened version of the F-4E were considered. Lockheed CL-985_an F104 development coud have been an option)

F-XX initial proposals:

Lockheed submited CL-1200 Lancer
Northrop offered P-530-3 Cobra
Vought had Super V-1000 (an V-1000 powered by one P&W F100)
Boeing teamed with Dassault to develop the J79 Mirage F1 but had to abandon that idea for a totally new design.

Initial concepts evolved in new proposals:

Vought V-1100
Northrop P-530-4
Northrop P-610
General Dynamics FX-404
Boeing new design (unknown for me)

The version for the US Navy was named VF-XX

On New Year's Eve, 1971, the Air Force officialy launched Lightweight Fighter Prototype Program

New contenders:

General Dynamics Configuration 785
General Dynamics Configuration 786
General Dynamics configuration 401
Boeing Model 908
Northrop P600
Northrop P601
Vought Model V1100
Lockheed Model CL-1200
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Thanks! I didn't know that GD submitted 785 and 786 as well as 401. I have a pic of 785, but not 786.
 

Antonio

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I have a pic of 785, but not 786.

Here's the pic you want, Overscan ;)
 

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Archibald

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Digging this old topic. In November 1970 Lockheed CL-1200 Lancer lost the IFA (mentionned by Jemiba) to the F-5E.

Then Johnson went to Boyd fighter Mafia and tried to get government funding for a CL-1200 prototypes as the X-27 - a demonstrator of LWF. That was in March 1971.

But the US government nor its Air Force were no dupe, and there was no way they would give Lockheed some kind of unfair, non-competitive contract for what amounted to a new fighter.

So I suppose they started F-XX as a way to tell Johnson "if you want to build a prototype CL-1200, you will have to compete with others."

So if I get the story straight, a case could be make that F-XX was both USN and USAF but split between LWF for the Air Force and VFAX for the Navy, before the Navy was forced to drop VFAX and pick one of the two LWF competitors.

I never suspected that Dassault tried their chance with the Air Force, but whatever, their assessment was correct. F-1 even with J79 is barely a Phantom.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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March 1971 Congress 'HEARINGS ON MILITARY POSTURE AND H.R. 3818 AND H.R. 8687'
 

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Avimimus

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Deino said:
Hi ... I think this is a 3-side drawing ... but I'm not sure !

Judging from the discontinuities in the drawing and the style - I suspect this isn't an original three-view, but rather someone read the description and resized a 3-view of a Mirage F-1 and attached the tail of an F-16 from a different three-view...!
 

Archibald

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It's quite funny how Boeing and Dassault were attracted to each others, at least for fighters. AFAIK it nearly happened, three times: Mirage III-W in 1961, another Mirage III in '68, and then this one, a Mirage F1.
 

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