Blohm und Voss Asymmetric Projects

[hesham]

Thank you my dears,

anther asymmetrics aircraft projects for Richard Vogt.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Blohm and Voss
P.157 was a heavy fighter project.

A drawings to BV P.165 and P.172;

 

[Tophe]

Have you ever seen pictures of the asymmetric unknown projects not illustrated in Igor’s http://www.geocities.com/asymmetrics/ nor in my http://cmeunier.chez-alice.fr/Asymm_addition.htm ?
They are the Blohm-und-Voss P.18, 40, 44, 62, 65, 72, 74, 75, 103, 112, 113, 114, 128, 135, 141, 155, 164, 176 and Heinkel P.1071 .
More details are on http://www.luft46.com/pjtlstbv.html , still without picture. Do you have other sources?

 

[Tophe]

For instance, I read:
Heinkel He.P.1071 , Asymmetric Fighter with two unspecified piston engines.
And I would love to see it. I could invent a provisionary drawing as below (from He219), but this is just imagination:

 

[osul]

Hi this is my model of the B&V 141. Made in Cinema 4d. I hope can be useful!

 

[Tophe]

Hi this is my model of the B&V 141. Made in Cinema 4d. I hope can be useful!

It can be very useful for me as a what-ifer (for a double 141 and so on - into the CGI forum: "Scale Modelling, CGI and Profiles", I am going to send you a PM about it), but this is not the main subject here, hoping historical sources, if available. Thanks.

 

[saturncanuck]

Hi this is my model of the B&V 141. Made in Cinema 4d. I hope can be useful!

I have the Airfix kit of this!

 

[BAROBA]

Hi this is my model of the B&V 141. Made in Cinema 4d. I hope can be useful!

Nice modelwork

Great job

 

[Tophe]

The very famous Bv-141 (single-engine reco) is not a secret project, the Bv-P.141 (3-engine transport) is. Sorry. ;D

 

[Tophe]

It seems I have another source (still picture-less) than Igor’s and Dan’s: the wonderful Putnam book “German Aircraft of the Second World War” pages 728-734:
Blohm-und-Voss P.18 : asymmetric fighter, one 540hp Jumo210
P.40: asymmetric ground attack aircraft, one 910hp DB600
P.44: asymmetric reconnaissance aircraft, one Jumo210 or Bramo329 or DB600
P.62: asymmetric naval dive bomber, one 2,700hp DB606
P.72: attack version of Ha-141 (Bv 141), one 725hp BMW132A
P.74 & 75: multi-purpose versions of Ha-141, one 1,200hp Jumo211 or 1,550hp BMW139
P.103: asymmetric airliner, three 1 ,580hp BMW801
P.112: development of P.111, three 1,500hp Jumo208
P.113: asymmetric seaplane, three 1,500hp Jumo208
P.114: heavy fighter version of Bv-141, one 1,600hp BMW801
P.128: asymmetric fighter
P.135: asymmetric fast bomber, one 3,800hp DB613
P.141: asymmetric passenger aircraft, three 1,000hp Bramo323
P.155: asymmetric dive bomber, one 2,500hp Jumo222 or 1,700hp BMW801
P.164: bomber, one 3,800hp DB613
P.176: armoured version of asymmetric Bv 237, one 1,700hp BMW801D
Heinkel P.1071: asymmetric fighter, two piston engines

 

[Tophe]

P.103: asymmetric airliner, three 1 ,580hp BMW801

This could be something like that (based on the Fw200 Condor):

 

[smurf]

Why build that? It seems to be simply making problems to overcome.
I can see the logic of a wide field of view from an asymmetric observation or even ground attack plane, but won't the asymmetric airliner just put off the customers?

 

[Tophe]

Why build that? It seems to be simply making problems to overcome.
I can see the logic of a wide field of view from an asymmetric observation or even ground attack plane, but won't the asymmetric airliner just put off the customers?

Well, I think it is neither a stupid design nor a genius one. A 3-engined asymmetric version of the 747 has been designed this way, and rejected because customers were not ready to accept it, but why desiging such things? I may explain:
Sometimes, a 3-engined layout is required, for instance because the required power corresponds to 3 times the biggest (or cheapest) available engine. From a 2-engined basis (one port, one starboard), where to put the third engine? Either:
- on the tail (Trislander, DC-10, etc): but the tail becomes more fragile or need extra weight to be solid enough
- in the nose (Ju52/3m, S.M.-79-II, etc): but the cockpit has less view forward
- on a pylon over the fuselage : but this is much dragging
- laterally: dealing with asymmetry... Well, the best is not the design above but the less-dragging design below, hiding the third engine behind one of the 2 others:

 

[smurf]

Thank you Tophe. I see some logic, and I don't think the designers stupid. But I still think an asymmetric layout makes needless difficulties. Wouldn't four engines (in in-line pairs if wanted) usually provide the power without the balance problems?

 

[Tophe]

You are right, and that is why asymmetric airplanes are so rare.
Anyway I love the oddity of the rare ones chosing such a layout ;D

 

[AeroFranz]

I've always been intrigued by asymmetric aircraft, as much by the physics behind them as the curious looks.
The May or June issue of "The Aeroplane" had a short article (not the main aircraft database article) by Alfred Price on the BV.141.
The author briefly described the balance of all the forces and moments which must obviously be zero for steady level flight. Does anyone have that article or can offer a similar explanation?

 

[hesham]

Blohm and Voss P.165 & P.166

Hi,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Blohm-Voss-BVP-165-1-72-Bird-Models-resin-kit-new-/230413328178?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_ToysGames_ModelKits_ModelKits_JN&hash=item35a5b45f32#ht_548wt_896

http://cgi.ebay.com/Blohm-Voss-BVP-166-1-72-Resinbausatz-Bird-Models-neu-/230487861360?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Standmodelle_Baus%C3%A4tze&hash=item35aa25a870#ht_1473wt_879

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Re: Blohm and Voss P.165 & P.166

Again, just somewhat nasty looking model kits.

 

[kiradog]

Trying to identify some microfilm with P numbers that I can not make out.

Anyone have an idea what this one was?

 

[Michel Van]

two ideas
BV-237 a fighter based on BV-141 design
P.194 design for Stuka bomber/fighter


Source:
Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945
Band 1 Flugzeugtypen AEG - Dornier
by Heinz J. Nowarra


Page 115 and 132

 

[Justo Miranda]

I disagree, in my opinion the unknown project is a midget attack variant of the BV 141 standard with 11,05 m. lenght and 13,63 m span. ,please see wing planform comparative.

 

[alfakilo]

When I see these asymmetrical designs, I wonder why. What was the aerodynamic advantage?

Where was the longitudinal (roll) axis?

 

[Jemiba]

I think, too, that it is a modification of a then already existing design, because of the
protruding leading edge, where the nacelle was on the Bv 141. The wing planform resembles
the Bv 141B, the larger fin may have been used to compensate for the nacelle set even
further out from the centerline.
AFAIK the reason for those designs just was a better visibility and better field of fire for the
flexible weapons and the fact, that problems due to the asymmetry could be solved with relative
ease. For the fighter/attack variants, additional advantages were seen for placing fixed
weapons, which didn't need synchronisation

 

[richard]

At first , thank you for all the B&V designs you have posted here : it's great you shared them


About this project , the main feature is the big distance between the engine and the nacelle : it's like the P.168 and the P.172 .
The P.172-01-01 is illustrated in " Stukas ! " by Herbert Leonard (a very interesting book (in french) describing the german dive bombers from 1933 to 1945 , with many projects): it's not our mystery bird .
The P.172-02-01 is only described , but all fit well : BMW 801D , single seat , right wing much bigger than the left one , same tail wheel than the P.168...

 

[Michel Van]

i look closer on this Scan
wat i can see on Project number is P 1/2 or P. 1/7 (/ is a long scartch on Microfilm). also is the number 1105 clear to see


it could be that is label as P. 172

 

[kiradog]

Here is a close up of the drawing block

 

[Justo Miranda]

P.168 ....please see http://www.geocities.ws/asymmetrics/bv 168.htm

 

[mrys]

P.168 ....please see http://www.geocities.ws/asymmetrics/bv 168.htm

P.168 has cockpit for two persons. This one looks like for pilot alone - P.172 rather.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Single and twin cockpit comparative...

 

[Michel Van]

Thx Kiradog for close up of the Scan

i try to photoshop it if discover there more written, but sadly mostly unreadable.
the Number is P.1 scratch 7 and n or m and on far end a 1

after study closely the book
Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945
Band 1 Flugzeugtypen AEG - Dornier
by Heinz J. Nowarra

i found this: B&V P.177
Development of asymmetric one seat Fighter-bomber with one Jumo 213 with 1750 hp.
Armament 6x 20 mm MG 151/20 in Cockpit (what let to the BV 237 study)

 

[kiradog]

Here is what I have on the P.172

Did this have Pulse Jet assist?

Looked through my files and nothing on the P.177

Gary

 

[Justo Miranda]

Here is what I have on the P.172

Did this have Pulse Jet assist?

Looked through my files and nothing on the P.177

Gary

Or solid fuel rockets

 

[Michel Van]

the P.172 had a rocket engine in tail section (Walter Engine ?)
for boost fast take off, for interception or if Airbase is under attack.


source
Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945
Band 1 Flugzeugtypen AEG - Dornier
by Heinz J. Nowarra

 

[Justo Miranda]

In my opinion Schmidding solid fuel rockets, please see attached samples.

 

[Jemiba]

AFAIK, the Schmidding solid fuel boosters had a very short duration of a few seconds only
and so they were used as jettisonable take-off boosters, as it would have made not much
sense, to keep the burned out shells. Here it seems to be installed in the rear fuselage, so
I would think, it was a liquid fueled rocket engine.

 

[Michel Van]

AFAIK, the Schmidding solid fuel boosters had a very short duration of a few seconds only
and so they were used as jettisonable take-off boosters, as it would have made not much
sense, to keep the burned out shells. Here it seems to be installed in the rear fuselage, so
I would think, it was a liquid fueled rocket engine.

See as example, the Me 262-C Heimatschutzer I, II, III
in I version a Walter HWK 509 A-2 rocket engine was build into rear end.
by the way the combustion chamber of HWK 509 A-2 is a long tube
it could fit in "cylinder" who stick out from P.172 tail unit


edit: the P.172 is a Stuka dive bomber, this cylinder must be part air brakes
sorry for that error

 

[Justo Miranda]

assymetrics air brakes? :

 

[Jemiba]

Michel might be right in relation to the fuselage they would be symmetric. Could be a
system similar to that of the Dornier Do 217, although the experiences weren't that
good, IIRC.

 

[Justo Miranda]

The tail drive brake of the Ar 240 V4 did not work well as well and both this and the Do 217 were symmetric planes.

 

[Stargazer]

Topics merged.