BAE EAP

Mat Parry

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I was there, aged 13 and took a load of photos, I'll see if I can dig them out
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Scan of a slide in my collection - from Farnborough '86.
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Scan of another slide in my collection - from Farnborough '86.
 

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Thorvic

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Hi Paul

You'll be glad to know the EAP has been reassembled and now on display in the R&D hall at RAF Cosford Museum alongside the TSR2, along with the cancelled projects models so a good time for SPF members to visit.

Didn't have a decent camera to get a good shot of the EAP sorry :(
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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overscan (PaulMM)

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overscan (PaulMM)

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Last one. These copies are scaled down to 33% original size.
 

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blackkite

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F-2

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You the man!

im curious how the EAP if developed would compare to the Eurofighter? The EAP seems to have better slow speed performance and higher AOA, 35 degrees vs 24 on the stock eurofighter, damn impressive for a single vertical stabilizer. The AMK kit seems to give the Eurofighter EAP like low speed handling. I wonder how the EAP would do in the Eurofighter’s domain? High and fast?

also the dummy missiles are interesting, this might be the only time I’ve seen what ASRAAM would have looked like in its first incarnation, superficially it seems to have changed remarkably little considering all the drama in that program.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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The changes to the wing shape were all about optimizing for higher speed maneuvering. Typhoon seems to be following the F-16 philosophy of limiting energy loss with a reasonably low max AOA limit in the FBW control system. Very unlike the TKF-90 ideas from Germany.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Cover of a small EAP brochure I have. Love the 80s page design! Seems to be before they fell back to Tornado vertical fin (lacking the fillet at the bottom) or inaccurate art?
 

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F-2

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The changes to the wing shape were all about optimizing for higher speed maneuvering. Typhoon seems to be following the F-16 philosophy of limiting energy loss with a reasonably low max AOA limit in the FBW control system. Very unlike the TKF-90 ideas from Germany.
Makes sense the Typhoon seems to fight like an F-16 in an F-15s envelope. I know the Germans were very enamored with the F-18 and Herbst would become a pioneer in super maneuverability. Ultimately I think the Typhoon was the right choice, but I wonder how good of a compromise the EAP would have been. The test pilots sure seem to have held it in high regard.
 
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overscan (PaulMM)

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Its important to understand that the EAP was a cheap(ish) technology demonstrator for the ACA to show technical capabilities and test a basic aerodynamic layout. A 'production EAP' was never on the cards; many of its detail design features were not acceptable in a production aircraft (but acceptable in a tech demonstrator.) When Germany and Italy pulled funding EAP got even more 'bare bones'. The ACA would have would have been 4th gen, with much more 'off-the-shelf' equipment (engines, avionics) than the eventual Typhoon.
 

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Springtime

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So from what I've read about the BAE EAP if worse came to worse Turing the EAP into the ACA was a no-go i have to ask were there any "plan B" of sorts for the RAF to replace the Toronto ADV and F-4s
West Germany F-18? And Italy probably F-16C's or F-18C's thay did buy used F-16A ADF's and Spain had the F-18A so newer F-18C? But what about the RAF ???
 

F-2

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So from what I've read about the BAE EAP if worse came to worse Turing the EAP into the ACA was a no-go i have to ask were there any "plan B" of sorts for the RAF to replace the Toronto ADV and F-4s
West Germany F-18? And Italy probably F-16C's or F-18C's thay did buy used F-16A ADF's and Spain had the F-18A so newer F-18C? But what about the RAF ???
RAF could have potentially gotten the Raptor if they really wanted it. Part of the infamous Joust Study was to determine if trying to buy the Raptor or staying with the EFA (this is right after the drama with German reunification) was more cost effective. Honestly the Tornado is an excellent platform and if you don’t have any immediate threat with a high performance fighter it’s perfectly suitable.
 

BLACK_MAMBA

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RAF could have potentially gotten the Raptor if they really wanted it. Part of the infamous Joust Study was to determine if trying to buy the Raptor or staying with the EFA (this is right after the drama with German reunification) was more cost effective. Honestly the Tornado is an excellent platform and if you don’t have any immediate threat with a high performance fighter it’s perfectly suitable.
Worst case scenario I can see Tornado F3 being heavily upgrades with EJ200/XG40 derived engine and more avionic upgrades if EFA fell through. The F3 really got to a very advanced stage in terms of its capabilities. It was just less flashy than the other types at the time.

Maybe even an F-18E derivative with RR engines if they were really keen on a full 4th gen aircraft without a full local design?
 

alertken

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If we here sometimes suffer brain-pain on the theology of AW Deterrence, spare a thought for Ministers after the 1994 Declarations, de-targetting the boomers: those signatures said that the then-AW Powers had no grief each v. the other. They all then proceeded with Stealth, at sea too, because "you never can tell", despite cost+time pain. 30 years' gestation for new kit. One may wonder...why?
Not only FRG wobbled through 1990s on need for (to be) Typhoon. If the core Task was to interrogate trespassers...F-15C for FRG? Tornado F3 is adequate for UK, enhanced by avionics MLU, EJ200 if you really wish.

4 NATO/Euro-Nations decided a multi-role, not-much-stealth Typhoon had a place - don't enquire too closely, so alternatives were not explored after Production MoU, 22/12/97: it was said of Concorde, when its R&D bill went through the ceiling, that it “has acquired a life of its own and is out of control.”
If...at some point after the Wall came down, FRG or UK had pulled the plug, I suggest replacement would have been...nothing, until 2nd, do I mean 3rd. life iterations on Tornados had run their course: say about now. If, as now, Rafale, Gripen and F-35s were available, then licence. But if they too had been abandoned as devoid of role...would we all have initiated one of these FOAS/Tempest/UCAV schemes earlier?
 
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F-2

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RAF could have potentially gotten the Raptor if they really wanted it.
Not necessarily - look up the Obey amendment
I’m aware, I just don’t think it would have held up if the UK wanted the F-22, especially in the early 90s. Same way the F-117 was offered to export in the 80s. Especially if it killed off a domestic European aircraft.
 

Springtime

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I should point out that i was more referring to a off the self opinion
The Japanese and Israeli Air Forces did really want the F-22A and both were willing to pay the full asking price but were turned down
Considering that the JASDF had the second largest Fleet of F-15Cs and the IDF has a large Fleet of F-16I and 24 F-15I i personally doubt that the RAF would have gotten the F-22A and the ATF in the 80s didn't have a Tech Demonstrator like the YF-22 and YF-23 when the EAP was flying in the 80s
Unless the RAF were willing to trust the USAF to basically pick its new Fighter the YF-22 or YF-23
The YF-23 still has Fan saying it should have been picked instead though history has had its weird chapters
 

uk 75

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The Typhoon was originally needed to replace the three squadrons of Jaguars in the UK and two squadrons of Lightnings in RAF Germany.
The 1991 Gulf War showed the limitations of the Tornado F2/3. It was designed to shoot down Bears, Badgers etc over the North Sea.
Had the Typhoon been cancelled its replacement would not have been EAP or a UK national programme.
In the 80s the Jags and Lightnings would have served as they did in real life.
After 1991 either F16 or F18 might have been bought if the RAF had found it needed to replace Tornado/Jaguar in operations in the Balkans and Deny Flight.
But I doubt it given the "peace dividend".
After 2000 would the Tornados and Jags have been replaced. Again, I doubt if the War on Terror would have permitted an F18 or Rafale buy.
So with no Typhoon I give you the Tornado F4 and the Jaguar GR4.
 

starviking

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After 2000 would the Tornados and Jags have been replaced. Again, I doubt if the War on Terror would have permitted an F18 or Rafale buy.
So with no Typhoon I give you the Tornado F4 and the Jaguar GR4.
I suspect the Harrier-replacement programme would have pootered along, but to fruition or cancellation?
 

Springtime

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Just wanted to get your guys thoughts if the RAF had to By the F-16 or F-18 as a ACA replacement post Gulf War 1 would it be the F-16C or F-18C or like Israel the Operational combat F-16D/I or the F/A-18D used by the USMC and RMAF
IAF D's are used as Strike Aircraft the I's are Strike Air superiority
Sorry if this is in the wrong Forum
 

sferrin

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Just wanted to get your guys thoughts if the RAF had to By the F-16 or F-18 as a ACA replacement post Gulf War 1 would it be the F-16C or F-18C or like Israel the Operational combat F-16D/I or the F/A-18D used by the USMC and RMAF
IAF D's are used as Strike Aircraft the I's are Strike Air superiority
Sorry if this is in the wrong Forum
A damn shame several export countries didn't join hands and fund the F-18L.
 

zen

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Just wanted to get your guys thoughts if the RAF had to By the F-16 or F-18 as a ACA replacement post Gulf War 1 would it be the F-16C or F-18C or like Israel the Operational combat F-16D/I or the F/A-18D used by the USMC and RMAF
IAF D's are used as Strike Aircraft the I's are Strike Air superiority
Sorry if this is in the wrong Forum
To salvage what can be from EFA, a UK F18 buy would likely port XG40/EJ200, Blue Vixen/Captor, cockpit and EW/ECM systems.
So it would be an F18K and substantially different.

But what the RAF was focused on was A12 as a Tornado successor.
 

Springtime

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I knew that the USAF was "interested" in the A-12 as a F-111 replacement but not that the RAF was as well
Sadly for better or worse the A-12 didn't make it to Flight testing though i doubt that it would have been adopted by the USN
Question did BAE and Co try to "sell" the ACA to anyone outside of Europe before it became Typhoon
 

thefrecklepuny

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I did read some years ago that Michael Portillo as UK Defence Sec. favoured a buy of F-16's. How much this view was shared within the MOD is anyone's guess, I suppose.
 

uk 75

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The UK tried to get Saudi Arabia to buy and finance the P110 which preceded EAP.
Saudi went on to but Tornados and then Typhoons.
Given the close ties between the Thatcher government and the Kingdom a Saudi funded EAP or ACA development might have replaced a European programme.
RAF F16 or F18 to replace the two RAF Germany F4 squadrons might have happened if the Cold War had gone on after 1990. Given that the Belgians, Danes and Dutch used F16 already, F16 makes sense.
The F117 was offered to the RAF by the Reagan administration but declined as Tornado was using up all funds.
If A12 has been adopted by the USAF, especially in a continued Cold War timeline, an RAF buy seems likely.
The Tornado F3 with updated radar and missiles would have been more likely for UK based units than F16 or F18 if Typhoon did not survive.
 
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Opportunistic Minnow

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I think the F-16 singularly unlikely with heavy emphasis on singular. I also don't see the F/A-18 as a natural EAP successor. Even aerospace engineers vote you know. I can't see any reason why an EAP follow-on wouldn't be an UK-built aircraft bar an SS-18 having flattened Warton. Things had improved from the dark days of the 60s & 70s, if only slightly.
 

zen

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Industry was exerting serious pressure to fund their survival and at the time there was both a lot of criticism of starving domestic industries of support in favour of foreign. Essentially it would look weak on defence and lacking pride.
Enough other areas had been essentially thrown to the wolves to make this a 'brave' decision.

It was also not really clear if the sort of systems and resulting aircraft was inferior to equivalent US aircraft.
Essentially the Typhoon is of superior performance to an F15 in a F18 sized package at the time.
Captor was the equal or better than US equivalents, EJ200 benefits from RR getting the mastery of three shaft turbofans out of the RB.211 effort.
And the cockpit was not behind
And the ECM/EW kit was felt to be worth investment.
All in all it seemed worth it.

Which is why EAP was going ahead with or without Germany. Which is why German industry put pressure on Bonn to get back onboard and have done so every time the politicians wobbled on this.

So the whole 'international partners' was more a sop to those who wanted to ditch the industry.
At that time, UK could have funded and built it's aircraft much as France did with it's effort.

Other partners knew this, especially under Thatcher who had handbagged the EEC over the Rebate and after the Falklands.

Things only looked dicey when Major looked weak and indecisive. Or the early Blair years.
 
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Opportunistic Minnow

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Well I probably wouldn't mention Captor as a plus point. :) It's embarrassing frankly that a AESA still, still hasn't been fielded. Soon hopefully.
 

zen

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Well I probably wouldn't mention Captor as a plus point. :) It's embarrassing frankly that a AESA still, still hasn't been fielded. Soon hopefully.
Yeah but what I said was "at the time", which is well prior to AESA deployment.
In fact back in the early 90's, only the Mig31 using a PESA was in service. Let alone when the real decisions where being taken in the 1980's.
 

red admiral

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It was also not really clear if the sort of systems and resulting aircraft was inferior to equivalent US aircraft.
Essentially the Typhoon is of superior performance to an F15 in a F18 sized package at the time.
Captor was the equal or better than US equivalents, EJ200 benefits from RR getting the mastery of three shaft turbofans out of the RB.211 effort.
And the cockpit was not behind
And the ECM/EW kit was felt to be worth investment.
All in all it seemed worth it.

But Typhoon was significantly later and more expensive. Was the "better" in some aspects worth it? Compare to say P.1216 which is more "different" to the US teen series by doing things they can't, rather than "better".

But as you say the main argument is political for keeping UK aerospace industry going / jobs in the North, much the same argument with Tornado, or Tempest today. And all three are actually coupled to more general European collaboration as well - pro EU Heseltine was a major driver behind Eurofighter (and Westland takeover). It's pretty much irrevelvent what the RAF wanted.

Still I think it's possible to see a watered down UK-only / UK-IT Typhoon continuing. Probably main differences in the Avionics side
 

zen

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No I don't see the RAF being overruled. Heseltine jumped on what was I think ACA at the time, but it was firmly rooted in requirements. Which is why it has survived to service.
Nor do I really see what would be watered down if UK or UK+IT went on without Germany.
Germany was constantly trying to cheapen/water down the effort, not the UK.

What I would say is it doesn't matter whether we speak of P.1216 or a CTOL design around a single large XG40 derived engine.
Either way such an alternative us likely wrapped up in choosing to either go it alone or with the US.

Nor do see the technologies being not worth funding.
Too much negativity and outright prejudice against the UK finding it's own aircraft.....a long standing facet of domestic politics/media based around a standing set of assumptions that are highly questionable.
 
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