B-52 Re-engine Resurfaces As USAF Reviews Studies

[LowObservable]

Re. the discussion as to whether the eight-engine solution was or was not chosen because of the engine-out case - I believe that it certainly was a factor. But a lot of people overlook another issue: there are three candidate engines for an eight-engine layout, but since the last time re-engining was studied, the two engines that would work for a four-engine B-52 (RB211-535 and PW2000) have ceased production.

LO,

Back in 2005 we discussed this often amongst the crew dogs. The original proposal was for 4 RB211-535's, engine out had them looking at other options like CFM-56's on the outboard pods, but two engine types on the same airframe doesn't help the cost argument. Ultimately, the final nail in the coffin for the 4 engine proposals was low oil prices in the late 90's early 2000's and all of the spare TF-33's taken from C-141's and KC-135E's. They could mod the tail and rudder to address the engine out, but that also cut against the cost savings argument. Your points for today's proposal are spot on, the other thing I suspect is they've finally worked their way through the inventory of C-141/KC-135E spares.

FWIW, Boeing Wichita has a model of the 4 engine BUFF hanging from the ceiling down in the B-52 area, we saw it every time we went there.

Right. I heard that story too. But the DSB reviewed the USAF study and found that they had done the assessment based on commercial gas prices. Tanker gas costs a little more...

 

[marauder2048]

Except the USAF has adopted commercial fuel (Jet A) and DSB came up with a fully burdened fuel cost for aerial refueling
that's some 45% higher than any other study published in the intervening ~ 20 years.

 

[mkellytx]

Re. the discussion as to whether the eight-engine solution was or was not chosen because of the engine-out case - I believe that it certainly was a factor. But a lot of people overlook another issue: there are three candidate engines for an eight-engine layout, but since the last time re-engining was studied, the two engines that would work for a four-engine B-52 (RB211-535 and PW2000) have ceased production.

LO,

Back in 2005 we discussed this often amongst the crew dogs. The original proposal was for 4 RB211-535's, engine out had them looking at other options like CFM-56's on the outboard pods, but two engine types on the same airframe doesn't help the cost argument. Ultimately, the final nail in the coffin for the 4 engine proposals was low oil prices in the late 90's early 2000's and all of the spare TF-33's taken from C-141's and KC-135E's. They could mod the tail and rudder to address the engine out, but that also cut against the cost savings argument. Your points for today's proposal are spot on, the other thing I suspect is they've finally worked their way through the inventory of C-141/KC-135E spares.

FWIW, Boeing Wichita has a model of the 4 engine BUFF hanging from the ceiling down in the B-52 area, we saw it every time we went there.

Right. I heard that story too. But the DSB reviewed the USAF study and found that they had done the assessment based on commercial gas prices. Tanker gas costs a little more...

Right, tanker gas is just a multiple of commercial gas, I've sat on both ends of the boom. Big reductions, of the need of commercial gas greatly reduce the need for tanker gas as well and the multiple works in your favor. Also, when tanker gas is a must, cost is less of a concern, in other words, if the mission is that important, cost is a secondary concern.

At the end of the day it's the lifecycle costs that are supposed to tip the balance. When there are hundreds of spares sitting in crates, that undermines the case for a new engine. Now that they're all gone and the Strat Radar and other mod's are funded a new engine is suddenly "cost effective".

 

[TomcatViP]

Reborn B-52H WiZe[e] guy flies again:

View: https://youtu.be/FNFK-I3X-BY

B-52H 'Wise Guy' flies again after being rescued from 'Boneyard'

The B-52H, tail number 60-034, was filmed taking flight at Tinker Air Force Base, Oklahoma, where it had arrived back in April to undergo programmed depot maintenance (PDM) after a 12 year hiatus.

www.dailymail.co.uk

(you might want to tune down your speakers)

 

[bobbymike]

General Electric Wants To Keep America's B-52s In The Air Until 2097 (At Least)

The B-52 Stratofortress ain’t new. The first one flew nearly seventy years ago in 1952. The last ones were built ten years later. But just because it’s already been around for decades doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a lot more fight left in it. At least General Electric seems to think so.

foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com

 

[FighterJock]

General Electric Wants To Keep America's B-52s In The Air Until 2097 (At Least)

The B-52 Stratofortress ain’t new. The first one flew nearly seventy years ago in 1952. The last ones were built ten years later. But just because it’s already been around for decades doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a lot more fight left in it. At least General Electric seems to think so.

foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com

So General Electric wants to keep the B-52's flying until about 2097? Looks like the USAF does not want to give up its BUFF's anytime soon in favour of a replacement bomber.

 

[gtg947h]

General Electric Wants To Keep America's B-52s In The Air Until 2097 (At Least)

The B-52 Stratofortress ain’t new. The first one flew nearly seventy years ago in 1952. The last ones were built ten years later. But just because it’s already been around for decades doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a lot more fight left in it. At least General Electric seems to think so.

foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com

So General Electric wants to keep the B-52's flying until about 2097? Looks like the USAF does not want to give up its BUFF's anytime soon in favour of a replacement bomber.

More like they don’t have/can’t get the budget to come up with an all-new replacement right now...

 

[uk 75]

From discussions on various threads it seems that designing and building a modern B52 or converting a civil widebody would be less cost effective than keeping the tried and tested Buffs flying. Bit like an old wooden ship of the line. Re-engining ought to be a way of doing this.

 

[Excalibur66]

GAO report in 2020 for B-52 engine replacement program

 

[bobbymike]

General Electric Wants To Keep America's B-52s In The Air Until 2097 (At Least)

The B-52 Stratofortress ain’t new. The first one flew nearly seventy years ago in 1952. The last ones were built ten years later. But just because it’s already been around for decades doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a lot more fight left in it. At least General Electric seems to think so.

foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com

So General Electric wants to keep the B-52's flying until about 2097? Looks like the USAF does not want to give up its BUFF's anytime soon in favour of a replacement bomber.

More like they don’t have/can’t get the budget to come up with an all-new replacement right now...

If kept up to date, electronics/avionics/weapons, is there anything a non-stealthy clean sheet design could do “substantially” better than the B-52?

 

[gtg947h]

General Electric Wants To Keep America's B-52s In The Air Until 2097 (At Least)

The B-52 Stratofortress ain’t new. The first one flew nearly seventy years ago in 1952. The last ones were built ten years later. But just because it’s already been around for decades doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a lot more fight left in it. At least General Electric seems to think so.

foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com

So General Electric wants to keep the B-52's flying until about 2097? Looks like the USAF does not want to give up its BUFF's anytime soon in favour of a replacement bomber.

More like they don’t have/can’t get the budget to come up with an all-new replacement right now...

If kept up to date, electronics/avionics/weapons, is there anything a non-stealthy clean sheet design could do “substantially” better than the B-52?

IMHO that’s pretty much it... a clean-sheet non-stealthy “bomb truck” might well be more efficient, easier to support, more easily deployed, and everyone likes new shiny stuff, but the up-front cost is a whole lot higher compared to upgrades on the B-52 fleet. As I understand it the airframe is pretty robust and relatively low-time so they aren’t aging/cracking out like other aircraft in the inventory.

It’s sort of like continuing to drive your paid-for older truck or SUV, even though it’s less efficient, because the capital outlay for a new more-efficient vehicle would exceed the savings on fuel.

 

[Grey Havoc]

On a side note:
https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/lf0gxy View: https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/lf0gxy/went_to_the_start_of_the_american_hand_egg_game/

 

[Grey Havoc]

‘Too early to say’ when B-52 engine contract will be awarded

Companies are still moving through the process of furnishing the government with additional information about their proposals.

www.defensenews.com

 

[shin_getter]

If kept up to date, electronics/avionics/weapons, is there anything a non-stealthy clean sheet design could do “substantially” better than the B-52?

It can be a C-17?

In that it can do other jobs while having fleet commonality. With the exact shape of future conflict being uncertain, multirole is a good thing.

 

[TomcatViP]

Not related to her engines but somewhat relevant:

Global Strike Command Wants VR Refueling Training for B-52 Pilots - Air Force Magazine

The Air Force wants to turn to virtual reality to make their B-52 pilots proficient at aerial refueling.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[TomcatViP]

Air Force Life Cycle Management Center’s Bombers Directorate stated that this is a great initiative to repurpose a retired B-52H into a tool to advance the fleet’s modernisation and sustainment efforts for decades to come. Upon arrival in Oklahoma City, the left wing and fuselage will be reattached and used to test how new technology or modifications will integrate with B-52 aircraft.

The integration model or mock-up will support a number of current and future modification initiatives, to include the Commercial Engine Replacement Programme and Radar Modernisation Programme. Also, as new weapons are developed and come on hand, the B-52H integration model will show how the weapons attach, what needs to change, and if they fit on the aircraft. This is an asset that will help integrate different items and weapons onto USAF's Stratofortresses quicker.

B-52H's future updates, the USAF takes it seriously

B-52H's future updates, the USAF takes it seriously A Stratofortress bomber, named 'Damage Inc. II', was recently taken out of storage and is expected to be towed from Davis Month...

www.scramble.nl

 

[FighterJock]

Air Force Life Cycle Management Center’s Bombers Directorate stated that this is a great initiative to repurpose a retired B-52H into a tool to advance the fleet’s modernisation and sustainment efforts for decades to come. Upon arrival in Oklahoma City, the left wing and fuselage will be reattached and used to test how new technology or modifications will integrate with B-52 aircraft.

The integration model or mock-up will support a number of current and future modification initiatives, to include the Commercial Engine Replacement Programme and Radar Modernisation Programme. Also, as new weapons are developed and come on hand, the B-52H integration model will show how the weapons attach, what needs to change, and if they fit on the aircraft. This is an asset that will help integrate different items and weapons onto USAF's Stratofortresses quicker.

B-52H's future updates, the USAF takes it seriously

B-52H's future updates, the USAF takes it seriously A Stratofortress bomber, named 'Damage Inc. II', was recently taken out of storage and is expected to be towed from Davis Month...

www.scramble.nl

I hope that this accelerates the re-engine programme, as it has been ages since I have seen any news about it for a while.

 

[TomcatViP]

Slight delays and prudence with commercial engine swap:

B-52 Re-engining Cost Up 9% Due to Fresh Data, 'Industrial Realities' - Air Force Magazine

The cost of the B-52 Commercial Re-Engining Program will rise but less so than media reports, according to Acting Air Force Secretary John P. Roth.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[Grey Havoc]

Whenever trying to incorporate COTS these days, expect things to go south.

 

[TomcatViP]

The problem comes too often with the lack of deep understanding of mil. equipment Specifics.
I often take the case of the P-8 Poseidon and all the market counter-offers that simply strap sensor payload onto a civilian airframe thinking that mission profile will be completely compatible with that of an airliner...

With the B-52 the USAF came a long way back from the day most of the offers were big turbofans strapped under the wings.

 

[bobbymike]

B-52 Engine Replacement Could Keep Bomber Flying Through Its 100th Birthday

Other improvements have the Air Force contemplating smaller air crews.

www.defenseone.com

 

[In_A_Dream]

B-52 Engine Replacement Could Keep Bomber Flying Through Its 100th Birthday

Other improvements have the Air Force contemplating smaller air crews.

www.defenseone.com

I shutter every time I see DefenseOne pop up, PTSD from reading their hyperpoliticized reporting during the Trump admin.