Avro CF-105 Arrow and its variants

[Apophenia]

I'm not absolutely sure of that, but I vaguely remind that from 1946 onwards Avro Canada was pretty independant from its U.K counterpart. It was property of the Canadian government.

Avro Canada originated with National Steel Car's Anson production. The Malton plant became a Crown Corporation in 1942 as Victory Aircraft Limited. In 1945, CD Howe set about divesting the Federal Government of its aircraft factories. Victory was bought by the Hawker Siddeley Group that year, becoming their wholly-owned subsidiary, A.V. Roe Canada Ltd.

 

[Murray B]

Were the Arrow ejection seats purpose-build for that aircraft ? Otherwise there is nothing surprising finding Martin Baker ejection seats in Great Britain

Exactly my point. The seller of the seat contacted Martin-Baker and discovered they were standard seats made at the Martin-Baker facility in Canada and fitted to Avro Arrow aircraft. There is no doubt they are Arrow seats. The problem is that there is no reason in the world to ship a standard Martin-Baker seat by itself across the Atlantic to England when there were plenty of these seats already there. It only makes sense if it was installed in an aircraft. This is strong evidence that one Arrow was sent over there and gives good support to the seller's claim.

This is not possible....

It amazes me how history can be corrupted into utter fiction after only a few years. The Avro story is a good example. There is plenty of reliable documents that show Avro Canada was wholly British owned and yet almost all on-line sources indicate it was all-Canadian.

Here is something from a reliable source, "Sir Roy Dobson, managing director of the Hawker Siddeley Group and chairman of A. V. Roe (Canada) Ltd. denied in a statement issued in London on February 24..." [It does not mention if it is London in England or the one in Ontario, Canada but I assume they meant the larger city in the UK.]

See article at http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1959/1959%20-%200654.html

The wisdom of the Liberal government selling so much of the Canadian aerospace industry to foreign interests is something that can be reasonably debated but the ownership of Avro Canada is not. It was always British and certainly was when the Arrow was cancelled in 1959.

Since Avro Canada really was British and there is evidence of a missing Arrow it is reasonable that the aircraft was transferred to the U.K. and many of the seller's claims are correct.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Exactly my point. The seller of the seat contacted Martin-Baker and discovered they were standard seats made at the Martin-Baker facility in Canada and fitted to Avro Arrow aircraft. There is no doubt they are Arrow seats. The problem is that there is no reason in the world to ship a standard Martin-Baker seat by itself across the Atlantic to England when there were plenty of these seats already there. It only makes sense if it was installed in an aircraft. This is strong evidence that one Arrow was sent over there and gives good support to the seller's claim.
for

The seats were returned to the vendor, Martin Baker, for safe deactivation/disposal & credit. Not too mysterious.

It amazes me how history can be corrupted into utter fiction after only a few years. The Avro story is a good example. There is plenty of reliable documents that show Avro Canada was wholly British owned and yet almost all on-line sources indicate it was all-Canadian.

It was British owned, Canadian run and operated, and all profits were retained in Canada and reinvested. It was Hawker Siddeley's belief they could sell products to the USA from Canada, which was the logic behind purchasing the Victory aircraft plant & investing large sums of money in it. This is completely documented, well-known and e.g. Wikipedia managed to get it correct. These "online sources" must be pretty poor.

[Here is something from a reliable source, "Sir Roy Dobson, managing director of the Hawker Siddeley Group and chairman of A. V. Roe (Canada) Ltd. denied in a statement issued in London on February 24..." [It does not mention if it is London in England or the one in Ontario, Canada but I assume they meant the larger city in the UK.]

See article at http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1959/1959%20-%200654.html

The wisdom of the Liberal government selling so much of the Canadian aerospace industry to foreign interests is something that can be reasonably debated but the ownership of Avro Canada is not. It was always British and certainly was when the Arrow was cancelled in 1959.

Since Avro Canada really was British and there is evidence of a missing Arrow it is reasonable that the aircraft was transferred to the U.K. and many of the seller's claims are correct.

RL202 missed some photos after being damaged, but there's photos of it in the scrapping line being scrapped. What "evidence" exists of a missing Arrow?

 

[Murray B]

The seats were returned to the vendor, Martin Baker, for safe deactivation/disposal & credit. No too mysterious.

Thanks, PaulMM, for the comments.

Martin-Baker made ejection seats in several different countries. The seller's documentation indicates these were Canadian-made standard Martin-Baker seats. Even if the Canadian plant had closed Avro Canada would still have returned the seats by ground to Martin-Baker in the U.S. and not shipped them clear across the Atlantic for no apparent reason. Finding these Canadian seats in the U.K. would be like finding English longbows on the moon. They just shouldn't be there.

It was British owned, Canadian run and operated... This is completely documented, well-known and e.g. Wikipedia managed to get it correct. These "online sources" must be pretty poor..

Wikipedia had it wrong for years and have only recently corrected a small amount of the material. That is a large problem with dynamic information sources. They can change daily or even hourly. Wikipedia's Avro Arrow material is still mostly wrong but that discussion is not in keeping with the topic of this thread.

RL202 missed some photos after being damaged, but there's photos of it in the scrapping line being scrapped. What "evidence" exists of a missing Arrow?

The problem is that I should have clarified what I meant by "made" in my earlier post. What I meant was that there were six Arrows completed and ready to fly. Five were equipped with P&W J75s and one was equipped with a pair of experimental Orenda Iroquois engines. One Iroquois "threw a blade" so the aircraft could not be tested before cancellation but it was otherwise ready to fly.

RCAF records indicate they destroyed five completed aircraft and the parts for the remaining aircraft but they do not seem to mention what happened to the sixth aircraft that was completed. It might be possible that soldiers would destroy a finished multimillion dollar aircraft without a specific order to do so. The truth is I don't really know for sure because I never served in the military but my gut feeling is they wouldn't.

Nevertheless, the sixth aircraft had already been assigned a serial number and fitted with an identity plate so there should have been no confusion about its status. I have read some of the RCAF records and they only mention the destruction of five competed aircraft not six. The missing sixth aircraft is perfectly consistent with the seller's claims of an Arrow being in the U.K.

If anyone is interested in the real mach 1.9 Arrow and not the imaginary mach 3.5 one i could start a new thread and continue the discussion there.

 

[aam641]

RCAF records indicate they destroyed five completed aircraft and the parts for the remaining aircraft but they do not seem to mention what happened to the sixth aircraft that was completed.

Could you, please, be more specific about those records?


One major problem with RL-206 flying to England is that the Canada Aviation and Space Museum claims to have its nose section.
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/collections/artifacts/aircraft/AvroCanadaCF-105Arrow/

 

[JFC Fuller]

Could you, please, be more specific about those records?


One major problem with RL-206 flying to England is that the Canada Aviation and Space Museum claims to have its nose section.
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/collections/artifacts/aircraft/AvroCanadaCF-105Arrow/

And here is said nose section: http://www.wingweb.co.uk/Images/79/Avro_Arrow_CF105_Nose

And at a better angle and higher resolution here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AvroArrowRL206-02.JPG It looks pretty scrapped to me.

Palmiro Campagna has written in both his works that cover the Arrow (Requiem for a Giant: A.V. Roe Canada and the Avro Arrow and Storms of Controversy: The Secret Avro Arrow Files Revealed that the destruction orders specifically stated that one nose section was to be retained for research purposes which is why it ended up at the Institute of Aviation Medicine in Toronto where it was apparently used as a pressure chamber before being donated to its current residence in 1965.

As for how two ejection seats may have made it back to the UK, might I offer supply chain. It was not just Avro Canada (and thus its parent company) hit by the Arrow cancellation. Martin Baker had a facility in Collingwood Ontario that had been manufacturing ejection seats for Avro Canada aircraft, I understand that this was wound down in 1959 but was never a substantial facility. When it was shut it is entirely plausible that Martin Baker machinery and assets were shipped back to the UK, shipping does not cost a lot and it is entirely reasonable to suggest that this is what happened. I would argue that the truth about these seats probably lies in the what happened when the Martin Baker Canadian unit was shut down- not in any conspiracy relating to "missing" Arrows. Just as Orenda Iroquois X-116 was a test engine apparently transferred to the UK when design capability in Canada was shut down it is probably what happened with these seats.

 

[Bill Walker]

The RCAF records refer to the RCAF destroying only five Arrows (25201 to 25205) because these were the only 5 on the RCAF books on Black Friday. 25206 and on were still property of Avro Canada, and all were destroyed by Avro Canada. 25206 was "reasonably complete" on the line, but I have been told by those who worked there that it was weeks, if not not months, away from flying. This was the first Iroquois powered aircraft, so we have to assume that the aircraft was completed in secret, tested in secret, and then flown to the UK in secret months after the rest had been scrapped. Very hard to believe. Bits and pieces of Arrows emerged from basements and garages of ex-employees over the next 20 years as they realized they wouldn't be arrested. Very hard to believe that no one involved in getting an aircraft to the UK has come forward yet.

As others have said, there are clear photos of 25201 to 25205 being cut up. The forward fuselage of 25206, and a few other bits and pieces, are in various Canadian museums. There are records of custody for most of these (not published, as far as I know) that shows these chunks never left Canada. 25207 was barely recognizable as an aircraft in its last known photos. Serials were assigned to 25237 (at least), but the last of these were reported as 5% to 10% complete when scrapped. Pieces in bins.

Part of the source of this rumour was an Avro Canada study on flying an Arrow to the UK, in short hops, if they had been able to sell one to the UK. Paper copies of this study still exist. Sadly, it remained only a study.

 

[ekiqa]

It amazes me how history can be corrupted into utter fiction after only a few years. The Avro story is a good example. There is plenty of reliable documents that show Avro Canada was wholly British owned and yet almost all on-line sources indicate it was all-Canadian.

It was British owned, Canadian run and operated, and all profits were retained in Canada and reinvested. It was Hawker Siddeley's belief they could sell products to the USA from Canada, which was the logic behind purchasing the Victory aircraft plant & investing large sums of money in it. This is completely documented, well-known and e.g. Wikipedia managed to get it correct. These "online sources" must be pretty poor.

[Here is something from a reliable source, "Sir Roy Dobson, managing director of the Hawker Siddeley Group and chairman of A. V. Roe (Canada) Ltd. denied in a statement issued in London on February 24..." [It does not mention if it is London in England or the one in Ontario, Canada but I assume they meant the larger city in the UK.]

See article at http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1959/1959%20-%200654.html

The wisdom of the Liberal government selling so much of the Canadian aerospace industry to foreign interests is something that can be reasonably debated but the ownership of Avro Canada is not. It was always British and certainly was when the Arrow was cancelled in 1959.

Since Avro Canada really was British and there is evidence of a missing Arrow it is reasonable that the aircraft was transferred to the U.K. and many of the seller's claims are correct.

Regarding nationality of Avro Canada, in the early 50's they started to publicly trade shares, about 40% on the Toronto Stock Exchange. All profits were kept in Canada and re-invested and used to buy suppliers. In 1959, Avro Canada was the 3rd largest corporation in Canada.

The upper management were all concerned with running the Company for Canada, not for Hawker-Siddeley.

deHavilland Canada and Canadair were both 100% foreign owned and exported all their profits to the UK and USA respectively.

 

[Johnbr]

The 206 arrow.So on the CBC a long time a film that it said was the 206 under going taxi tests.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I'm pretty happy we have demolished this particular myth.

Murray B:

Since Avro Canada really was British and there is evidence of a missing Arrow it is reasonable that the aircraft was transferred to the U.K. and many of the seller's claims are correct.

This is poor reasoning. Leaving aside the fact there is no missing Arrow, there is no "reasonable" to be drawn here.

Which is more likely:

1) An Arrow was not disposed but illegally and secretly flown to England for unknown reasons. Everyone involved in both countries has concealed this perfectly for 50+ years. The Arrow in question disappeared, leaving no traces behind save its ejection seat.

2) A number of Arrow ejection seats were returned to Martin-Baker Canada and either sold off when M-B Canada closed, or shipped to the parent company in the UK, eventually ending up in private hands.

 

[Archibald]

I'm pretty happy we have demolished this particular myth.

It was a pleasure to help, plus I learned a lot (and now know where to ask for RL-206 photos)

 

[royabulgaf]

Thanks, Overscan. Explanation 2 makes complete sense, especially since I understand a number of Arrows were in various stages of construction.

 

[jmnjohn]

I recently fount this "Avro News" news letter dated October 4, 1957 ... Here are some pics (11) ........thx John ..

 

[jmnjohn]

Last 3 pics .....

 

[donaldson1]

The Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow was a delta-winged interceptor aircraft, designed and built by Avro Canada as the culmination of a design study that began in 1953. Considered to be an advanced technical and aerodynamic achievement for the Canadian aviation industry, the CF-105 (Mark 2) held the promise of near-Mach 3 speeds at altitudes likely exceeding 60,000 ft. (18,000 m), and was intended to serve as the Royal Canadian Air Force's primary interceptor in the 1960s and beyond.

Not long after the 1958 start of its flight test program, the development of the Arrow (including its Orenda Iroquois jet engines) was abruptly halted before the project review had taken place, sparking a long and bitter political debate.

The controversy engendered by the cancellation and subsequent destruction of the aircraft in production remains a topic for debate among historians, political observers and industry pundits. "This action effectively put Avro out of business and its highly skilled engineering and production personnel scattered...."
http://youtu.be/7sFRiacvNYo

 

[hesham]

Great find Donald

 

[Antonio]

Private video, can't be seen

 

[Stargazer]

Private video, can't be see

Same here...

 

[sferrin]

The OP just needs to uncheck a box on his Youtube page to make it viewable.

 

[hesham]

Also from the report; Arrow Countdown


the Arrow wind tunnel Model.

 

[Johnbr]

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/aircraft-cutaways/p25652-cf-105-electronic-systems.html
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/aircraft-cutaways/p25650-cf-105-mk-11.html

Found this in the book the arrow Scrapbook

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG04_Ixzhw4

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UmDYc8s3YY

 

[galgot]

Hi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UmDYc8s3YY

B) Very cool !

 

[blackkite]

I thought that Mk.3 looks like this.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi-2

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi-3

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi-4

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi-5

 

[CiTrus90]

Mr. Miranda, words cannot describe the gratitude i feel for all the awsome drawings you're sharing. Thank you so much!

Regards.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Tre topolino sorci verdi ?
205ª Squadriglia

 

[Orionblamblam]

Some feller has a number of Avro Arrow diagrams on ebay, including some proposal stuff. Not really my area, but might be somebodies.

Here

 

[Hobbes]

$75 shipping for a 7x9" drawing?

 

[hesham]

Nice find my dear Scott.

 

[Orionblamblam]

$75 shipping for a 7x9" drawing?

You begin to see why these diagrams aren't really my thing.

Besides: I suspect that what's really going on here is the seller isn't so much selling diagrams, but shipping himself out of Canada piecemeal. The desperation of the poor Canadian refugees trying to flee their blighted land is really quite heartbreaking. But we must remain firm: if there is a mass migration of Canucks, they're bring their problems with them, and we'll soon be overrun with wendols and poutine and Celine Dion.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Browsing his stuff I found a "Korean British AVRO Vulcan Reference Book"

Wow, the little-known Korean British Avro Vulcan.

 

[Apophenia]

... if there is a mass migration of Canucks, they're bring their problems with them, and we'll soon be overrun with wendols and poutine and Celine Dion.

Too late ... Celine Dion already 'snowbirds' in Vegas. Ha! She's your's and we won't take her back! You can't make us! ;D

 

[Archibald]

and let's not forget the devastation caused by Bryan Adams
https://www.google.fr/webhp?ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=ZWn1VsuWIIfyUOeRgcAJ#q=south+park+bryan+adams

 

[sferrin]

and let's not forget the devastation caused by Bryan Adams
https://www.google.fr/webhp?ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=ZWn1VsuWIIfyUOeRgcAJ#q=south+park+bryan+adams

But for every Bryan Adams there's a Rush or William Shatner.