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Artemis Moon Program

fredymac

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Artemis is the overall NASA program aimed at re-establishing manned lunar exploration which includes the "lunar gateway".

A human rated, reusable lander is being developed using the model of the commercial crew program. The schedule goal is to conduct the first, un-crewed landing in 2024 followed by a manned landing in 2025. Aerojet Rocketdyne, Blue Origin, Boeing, Dynetics, Lockheed Martin, Masten Space Systems, Northrop Grumman, OrbitBeyond, Sierra Nevada, SpaceX and Maxar are all bidding for a 2 contractor downselect about 1 year from now.

Contractors are not required to use the SLS to get the lander on the moon. However, NASA wants the ability to eventually dock with the lunar gateway.

Story here:
https://spaceflightnow.com/2019/10/07/nasa-opens-competition-to-build-human-rated-lunar-landers/

NASA program description
https://www.nasa.gov/nextstep/humanlander2
 

Michel Van

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For my part is Artemis waste of money
it focus on construction of a "lunar gateway" that need billions dollars to build and launch and assembly what take too much time
Pull money away from R&D budget needed to build the Landers and needed equipment like new Spacesuits.

My proposal drop the "Lunar Gateway" and spend the money into Reusable lander (base like on Blue Origin "Blue Moon")
Drop the SLS and goes with Falcon Heavy Falcon 9 and New Glenn or Vulcan
and Starliner and crew Dragon to get crews to landers

The Reusable lander operate from low earth orbit and use aerobraking on return to LEO
are refuel by exchange of Propellant tanks in LEO
The Reusable lander use a Direct landing trajectory to arrive on Moon and back
if there a emergency the crew module could land on Earth with help of aerobraking heat shield and parachutes.
 

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RanulfC

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For my part is Artemis waste of money
it focus on construction of a "lunar gateway" that need billions dollars to build and launch and assembly what take too much time
Pull money away from R&D budget needed to build the Landers and needed equipment like new Spacesuits.
It's a 'gateway' more than a "lunar gateway" is the plan and keep in mind that current plan is for NASA to NOT 'own' the landers and equipment. They are still paying to develop them :)

My proposal drop the "Lunar Gateway" and spend the money into Reusable lander (base like on Blue Origin "Blue Moon")
It's in the competition which has seperate funds from the gateway

Drop the SLS and goes with Falcon Heavy Falcon 9 and New Glenn or Vulcan
Could happne now that Congress is changing but if certain people aren't out in 2020 NASA will have to run both.

and Starliner and crew Dragon to get crews to landers
Again that depends mostly on politics. Orion may only fly on the SLS and may only be used a couple of times every couple of years. We can hope.

The Reusable lander operate from low earth orbit and use aerobraking on return to LEO
You realize that's a lot of extra gear to carry all the way to the surface of the Moon and back right? The whole idea of basing a reuable lander at the Gateway is to allow the lander to carry more gear/crew to the surface and back. Basing it in LEO means it then has that much more propellant needed to get TO the Moon let alone back again.

are refuel by exchange of Propellant tanks in LEO
The idea is to keep moving 'excess' propellant outward to fuel (pardon the pun) future work. Having a LEO depot and one in Lunar orbit means propellant can 'rideshare' from LEO to the Moon for the lander and other uses.

The Reusable lander use a Direct landing trajectory to arrive on Moon and back
HIgher propellant useage/needs due to higher initial mass and lower landed and returned mass. Breaking it up is more efficent.

if there a emergency the crew module could land on Earth with help of aerobraking heat shield and parachutes.
An Orion capsule mounted on the Blue Origins lander which also mounts an aerobrake system and extra propellant tanks. What have you saved with all this?
Seriously OTHER than being a NASA idea and a government run program, (and don't get me wrong there are issues with both :) ) what is wrong with the Gateway?

RAndy
 

Michel Van

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Again that depends mostly on politics. Orion may only fly on the SLS and may only be used a couple of times every couple of years. We can hope.
if SLS is axe by Capitol Hill remain only Starliner and crew Dragon to LEO

You realize that's a lot of extra gear to carry all the way to the surface of the Moon and back right? The whole idea of basing a reuable lander at the Gateway is to allow the lander to carry more gear/crew to the surface and back. Basing it in LEO means it then has that much more propellant needed to get TO the Moon let alone back again.
and
You realize that's a lot of extra gear to carry all the way to the surface of the Moon and back right? The whole idea of basing a reuable lander at the Gateway is to allow the lander to carry more gear/crew to the surface and back. Basing it in LEO means it then has that much more propellant needed to get TO the Moon let alone back again.
Launch all that stuff up to L1-point to Lunar gateway, has only benefit that Lander has lower propellant need as LEO version.
but if the Heat-shield and return Propellants left in Lunar orbit, the lander could be much smaller.

An Orion capsule mounted on the Blue Origins lander which also mounts an aerobrake system and extra propellant tanks. What have you saved with all this?
Seriously OTHER than being a NASA idea and a government run program, (and don't get me wrong there are issues with both :) ) what is wrong with the Gateway?
That too heavy , what i mean with crew module is habitat section of Lunar lander not the capsule
 

Archibald

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what is wrong with the Gateway?
I've followed the Gateway story since June 1999 and the Decadal Planning Team. Its prehistory reach back to Robert Farquhar in 1970.

So what's wrong with it ? just that it is a super idea castrated by NASA politics.
 

FighterJock

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what is wrong with the Gateway?
I've followed the Gateway story since June 1999 and the Decadal Planning Team. Its prehistory reach back to Robert Farquhar in 1970.

So what's wrong with it ? just that it is a super idea castrated by NASA politics.
I agree with you on that point Archibald, money and politics do not go along with one another when it is concerning NASA (look at what happened to the previous Constellation rocket).
 

Archibald

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If anybody interested I could provide a whole bunch of documents - and you will see how the ongoing LOP-G is a much downrated variant of much more formidable designs.

The Gateway is part of my "holly trilogy" of space projects - with suborbital refueling and an underground lunar base in the Marius Hills lava tube. The three work hand in hand.
 

RanulfC

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if SLS is axe by Capitol Hill remain only Starliner and crew Dragon to LEO
Big "if" of course :) IIRC didn't LM-et-al post some concepts of Orion going up on other launchers at some point in time?

Launch all that stuff up to L1-point to Lunar gateway, has only benefit that Lander has lower propellant need as LEO version.
but if the Heat-shield and return Propellants left in Lunar orbit, the lander could be much smaller.
And if you didn't have to haul the lander all the way from Earth orbit then your propellant loading and mass-in-LEO is also smaller :) Or course what we're both REALLY arguing for is resuable aerobraking Orbital Transfer Vehicle from LEO to the Moon I suspect :)

That too heavy , what i mean with crew module is habitat section of Lunar lander not the capsule
The 'habitat' section would have to be built much like the Orion capsule to survive Earth reentry and landing for the idea to work though and that's my point. Or are you suggesting if things go badly they Orion (and it's SM attachment) are what is used to haul the lander from LEO to the Moon and then back? Didn't sound like it but unless they DO drag an Orion/Dragon/Starliner to the Moon and back then the Lunar lander cabin has to be just as robust as they are AND set up to carry all the neccessary equipment to land on Earth as well as the Moon.

Keep in mind that the 'Gateway' isn't only for the Moon though they are 'selling' it that way on the Hill. (Smart idea actually since the Moon has their attention)

Randy
 

Flyaway

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Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon and private space venture Blue Origin, announced that he is teaming up with three old-school aerospace companies for the upcoming Artemis mission to the moon in 2024.

Bezos made the announcement at the ongoing International Astronautical Congress (IAC), which kicked off on Mondayin Washington, D.C. On Tuesday, he received the IAC’s first Excellence in Industry Award for his company’s contributions to human presence in space.
Blue Origin will be the lead contractor for a newly formed “national team,” as Bezos referred to it, joining forces with aerospace veterans Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, and Draper to build a lunar landing system that transports humans to the moon.
“We could not ask for better partners,” Bezos told the crowd at the IAC. “This is a national team for a national priority.”

 
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sferrin

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Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon and private space venture Blue Origin, announced that he is teaming up with three old-school aerospace companies for the upcoming Artemis mission to the moon in 2024.

Bezos made the announcement at the ongoing International Astronautical Congress (IAC), which kicked off on Mondayin Washington, D.C. On Tuesday, he received the IAC’s first Excellence in Industry Award for his company’s contributions to human presence in space.
Blue Origin will be the lead contractor for a newly formed “national team,” as Bezos referred to it, joining forces with aerospace veterans Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, and Draper to build a lunar landing system that transports humans to the moon.
“We could not ask for better partners,” Bezos told the crowd at the IAC. “This is a national team for a national priority.”
It's interesting that BO is leading when they've done relatively little in space compared to the likes of LM and NG. A hopper and a couple engines. They've never even put anything into orbit. Sure, eventually they'll probably get there but now? :confused:
 

fredymac

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I would bet BO is fronting the biggest chunk of cash. The other companies are probably more like risk sharing partners who would not be willing to fund anything more than component level contributions.
 
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