Another Malaysian Airliner down - in East Ukraine

[Thorvic]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-28354787

Doesn't sound good

 

[Orionblamblam]

A 777 with 295 souls on board shot down - apparently by the pro-Russian rebels/militants/terrorists/separatists/whatever - while cruising at over 33,000 feet.

*Wow.*

Reportedly a "Buk" missile was used. Recently supplied to the separatists by the Russians.

 

[JFC Fuller]

I know absolutely nothing about the protocols to this so I am just posing the question. There have been reports for weeks of separatists engaging Ukrainian military aircraft with increasingly sophisticated missile systems, at what point is/should air traffic be re-routed?

 

[Triton]

Reuters News Agency

tweets: #BREAKING: Eastern Ukraine separatist leader Alexander Borodai says airliner shot down by Ukrainian gov. forces, Kiev denied involvement

Source:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-28354787

 

[Avimimus]

If the separatists had vehicles of that scale - wouldn't the Ukrainian airforce be hunting them pretty actively? Is there any evidence that the separatists have been supplied with armour? It'd just seem surprising. I mean, with the emphasis on plausible deniability and all...

Of course, defection of military equipment from Ukraine is another possibility.

 

[Triton]

"Ukraine: Air Force Jet Downed by Russian Missile"
KIEV, Ukraine — Jul 17, 2014, 10:52 AM ET
By PETER LEONARD Associated Press

Source:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraine-air-force-jet-downed-russian-missile-24598894

A Ukrainian fighter jet was shot down by an air-to-air missile from a Russian plane and Ukrainian troops were fired upon by missiles from a village inside Russia, a spokesman for Ukraine's Security Council said Thursday.

The alleged episodes mark what Ukraine says is mounting evidence that Moscow is directly supporting the separatist insurgents in eastern Ukraine who have been seen to have substantial quantities of powerful weapons in recent weeks.

Security Council spokesman Andrei Lysenko said the pilot of the Sukhoi-25 jet hit by the air-to-air missile Wednesday evening was forced to bail after his jet was shot down. He said the rockets launched at Ukrainian troops were fired from the Russian village of Kuibyshevo.

Pro-Russia rebels, meanwhile, claimed responsibility for strikes Wednesday on two Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 jets.

The Defense Ministry said the second jet was hit by a portable surface-to-air missile, but added the pilot was unscathed and managed to land his plane safely

Moscow denies Western charges that is supporting the separatists or sowing unrest in its neighbor. The Russian Ministry of Defense could not be reached for comment Thursday about the latest accusations and Russia's foreign ministry did not respond to multiple requests for comment.

Earlier this week, Ukraine said a military transport plane was shot down Monday by a missile fired from Russian territory. Security Service chief Valentyn Nalyvaichenko said he had "unconditional evidence" that Russia was involved in downing that craft.

The rebels are known to possess portable anti-aircraft rocket launchers, but Ukrainian officials say that kind of weapon would have been unable to reach the plane at the altitude at which it was flying Monday. Aviation experts, however, have questioned whether the stricken transport plane was flying at the altitude Ukrainian officials had claimed.

Although the pro-Russia insurgents fighting the government in Kiev suffered a major setback earlier this month when they abandoned their stronghold in the city of Slovyansk, they still appear well-supplied militarily and have incurred heavy losses among government troops.

An Associated Press reporter on Thursday saw seven rebel-owned tanks parked at a gas station outside the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne. In the town, he also observed a Buk missile system, which can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet).

Ukraine's border service said Thursday it has evidence that five Grad multiple-rocket launchers and two armored personnel carriers were brought across the border Wednesday from Russia.

"Having crossed 60 meters (yards) over the border, they fired in the direction of Ukrainian army positions," the border service said in a statement. "In the location from which they fired, we found fragments of missiles and the traces of burned ground."

The U.S. slapped tougher sanctions against Russia on Wednesday for its actions in Ukraine. That prompted a strong reaction Thursday from Russian President Vladimir Putin, who said the sanctions will hamper bilateral relations and hurt not only Russian but also American businesses.

Russia's benchmark MICEX was down 2.4 percent in trading late Thursday after news of the sanctions while Russia's biggest oil company, Rosneft, was 4.4 percent down.

The U.S. sanctions target Rosneft and another major Russian energy firms, a pair of powerful financial institutions, eight weapons firms and four individuals.

The U.S. penalties, however, stopped short of the most stringent actions the West has threatened, which would fully cut off key sectors of Russia's oil-dependent economy. But officials said those steps were still on the table if Russia fails to abide by the West's demands to stop its support for the pro-Russia insurgents.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I suspect there are some other photos that are substantially more graphic and disturbing that just chunks of airplanes. Note, though, that one photo seems to show a portion of fuselage amongst some houses. Gotta wonder how much damage was done on the ground.

 

[Triton]

"Ukraine’s anti-aircraft missile system dispatched to Donetsk Wednesday"

Source:
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741173

MOSCOW, July 17. /ITAR-TASS/. Ukraine’s armed forces dispatched the Buk anti-aircraft missile system battalion to the area of the city of Donetsk on Wednesday, a well-informed source said referring to the data recording system.

Another battalion of the same weapons is said to be in the process of embarkation in the city of Kharkiv, northwest of Donetsk, the source said adding that the aircraft at an altitude of over 10,000 meters could be shot down only with the weapons of the S-300 or Buk (Beech) missile systems.

In the meantime, militias of the self-proclaimed republics of Donetsk and Luhansk have said they do not possess armament systems of this class.

Militias of the self-proclaimed republics in Ukraine's east are not armed with the Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, the press service of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People's Republic said in comments on the Ukrainian authorities' statements about a possible involvement of the Donetsk and Luhansk militias to the downing of the Malaysian plane.

 

[Triton]

Source:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-28354787

 

[NilsD]

Some very graphic images of corpses have been added to that twitter link. An NSFW notice might be prudent.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Debris pictures!
twitter.com/MatevzNovak

:-[ &

I suspect there are some other photos that are substantially more graphic and disturbing that just chunks of airplanes.

As it turns out, I was correct. As the Twitter feed listed above has updated, new photos have been added, showing victims. So... if such things are troubling for you, be warned. Falling from 33,000 feet does the human body no favors, especially that stop at the end. So... FYI.

 

[fightingirish]

I have deleted that post now.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I've modified the link to make it not a link.

Social media sure changes the way things are reported.

Another twitter feed - https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine - has some interesting stuff, showing how social media is being used here:

#Russia'n cmdr Strelkov commented on downed #MH17 (thinking it was Ukrainian): "We warned - do not fly in our skies"

And

Russian media reported that RU forces shot down a Ukrainian cargo plane but it turned out to be the #MH17 jetliner

And

Russian fighters are now deleting social media posts that can be used as proof that they shot or are capable of shooting down #MH17 jetliner

But the thing is... once you post something online, it's For The Ages.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Reuters World @ReutersWorld · 22m #BREAKING: Number of dead from crash of #MH17 more than 300, includes 23 U.S. citizen: Interior Ministry adviser, quoted by Interfax

 

[Avimimus]

So, the Russians think they may have done it. The Ukrainians had units of appropriate capability in the area. The Separatists may have tanks according to one sighting but don't seem to think they have the ADA capability...

...and there is still a small possibility that this loss was due to cabin depressurisation from poor maintenance or a design defect (it isn't like this airline hasn't had similar issues outside of the Ukraine recently). Of course, it isn't like there aren't multiple historical cases of accidental shoot downs of civilians (including in the Ukraine, as well as by the Russians - and by NATO mistakes as well)...

In any case - a tragic loss of life - and one that hopefully won't be exploited for political rhetoric (which is, IMHO, disrespectful to the victims).

 

[Triton]

I have deleted that post now.

I don't believe it was necessary to delete the link. I needed to know what an airliner crash scene looked like with uncensored photos.

 

[Orionblamblam]

hopefully won't be exploited for political rhetoric

Sorry, no. Doesn't matter who shot this thing down or why, it is *going* to be fed directly into the propaganda mills on *every* side.

 

[Triton]

Let's not rush to judgment while the propaganda mills are running at full speed and the facts of the incident are in dispute. Hopefully, we will get a statement soon from a third party of what happened.

 

[sublight_]

It is bad enough an Airliner got shot down but Christ why did it have to be another Malaysian 777? There is going to be a lot of time wasted (or not) trying to find a connection between the two.

 

[Orionblamblam]

why did it have to be another Malaysian 777?

Two possibilities spring to mind:

1) There *is* a link between the two. There may be a common thread of "inside job" terrorism, or perhaps a fleet-wide lapse in maintenance. It's not yet confirmed that todays plane was brought down by a missile; it's possible that it exploded - as that 747 did years back - due to a flaw in the fuel system or some such. And the earlier flight remains a complete mystery.

2) "Because flying over an active combat zone is inherently dangerous." A 777 is about as big as a target gets.

 

[sublight_]

I'm hoping there are at least two aviation responses to these events.

1. Don't even remotely fly over a goddamn conflict country if they are armed with anything more than rocks.

2. Lets get some kind of high resolution flight tracking system in place on international flights.

 

[Jemiba]

...I needed to know what an airliner crash scene looked like with uncensored photos.

Any special reason for the desire to see debris and maybe human remains ? :
Don't think, that from some pictures or footage of the crash site we can make
conclusions about the reasons for the crash. So I think fightingirish was quite
right. No need to support sensation mongering.

 

[Triton]

Any special reason for the desire to see debris and maybe human remains ? :
Don't think, that from some pictures or footage of the crash site we can make conclusions about the reasons for the crash. So I think fightingirish was quite right. No need to support sensation mongering.

I wanted to be informed on what the situation looked like on the ground as events were happening. I wanted to know what the responders were seeing without someone else making the decision of what I can see and what I can't see. We're adults here on the forums and capable of making our own decisions and judgments based on the images and tweets. I agree that it was probably prudent to give forum members a warning over the graphic content, but I believe that it was unnecessary for fightingirish to delete the link. We agree to disagree on this issue.

Now I feel like you believe I am a ghoul. :'( That I have to defend myself.

 

[JFC Fuller]

Based on the various things appearing from reputable people via twitter it certainly looks like a separatist Buk was to blame. If so, it might be time for the Russians to put the toys back in the box and stop spreading heavy weapons around like they are confetti.

 

[Orionblamblam]

2. Lets get some kind of high resolution flight tracking system in place on international flights.

You'd think some sort of GoPro systems would be easy to install... one above the cockpit looking aft, one below the cockpit looking aft, one each above and below the wingtips looking towards the fuselage (below might not actually be useful... maybe move it inboard), one at the top of the vertical fin looking down & forward, one each on the undersides of the tips of the horizontal stabs looking forward, one in the tail looking aft, one "dashcam" looking forward. Did my math right, that's 11 cameras. Would provide pretty much complete coverage of the aircraft and the space around it. Slow the framerate down to 5-10 per second, and you can store pretty much any route in onboard flash cards; or wire them in to an onboard "black box." Heck, make the footage available to the passengers to watch in flight, in real time; at the end of the flight they can push a button that orders DVDs of the flight footage. And if a missile tags the plane, it's a safe bet at least a few of the cameras will have caught sight of it.

 

[robunos]

You don't think...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2693454/US-preparing-unilateral-sanctions-Russia.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490


cheers,
Robin.

 

[sublight_]

I wanted to be informed on what the situation looked like on the ground.....

How about a picture of what looks like blast pits on the fan blades....

 

[Triton]

Was there any sort of flight advisory issued after the downing of a Ukrainian Antonov An-26 on Tuesday or the downing of another Ukrainian Antonov An-26 yesterday? Was Air Malaysia ignorant of the risks to civilian air traffic in the region or did they believe that the risk was negligible?

 

[sublight_]

2. Lets get some kind of high resolution flight tracking system in place on international flights.

You'd think some sort of GoPro systems would be easy to install...

I meant a realtime GPS stream that could not be disabled by the flight crew. It would take a very minimal data stream and yet have a very accurate accounting of where the plane is moment to moment. It could still be spoofed of course, and in that scenario we'd at least know it was a nation state doing it and not Dudley Douchebag.

 

[Triton]

How about a picture of what looks like blast pits on the fan blades....

Refer to post above:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,22468.msg227032.html#msg227032

 

[Orionblamblam]

I wanted to be informed on what the situation looked like on the ground as events were happening. ... I believe that it was unnecessary for fightingirish to delete the link. We agree to disagree on this issue.

FYI... the original Twitter feed seems to have been cleaned up, the photos of gore removed. And therefore...
https://twitter.com/MatevzNovak

There are very likely other good Twitter feeds, but this one is available and - at least for now - gore free.

Others:

https://twitter.com/Planesonearth

https://twitter.com/KyivPost

https://twitter.com/ReutersAero

http://ban.jo/News/Europe/20140717/Passenger-Plane-Shot-Down-Over-Ukraine-Shakhtarskyi/


https://twitter.com/Planesonearth/status/489862046247579648/photo/1
A stunning picture of the world's airplanes avoiding Ukraine right now. Diverted via Russia Airspace. #MH17crash pic.twitter.com/ZFaT8qb65g

• Reply
• Retweet
• Favorite

 

[Orionblamblam]

I meant a realtime GPS stream ...

Apparently, here ya go:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/ W MKK/tracklog

 

[Triton]

English translation of intercepted call between Russian fighters who admit to shooting down #MH13 jetliner

Source:
https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/status/489877190184796160

http://youtu.be/VnuHxAR01Jo

 

[sublight_]

I meant a realtime GPS stream ...

Apparently, here ya go:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/ W MKK/tracklog

Mode S doesn't work in the middle of nowhere (ocean) and pilots can turn it off. We need a global system that cannot be disabled, maybe an updated Cospas-Sarsat that receives GPS location streams.

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

2. Lets get some kind of high resolution flight tracking system in place on international flights.

You'd think some sort of GoPro systems would be easy to install... one above the cockpit looking aft, one below the cockpit looking aft, one each above and below the wingtips looking towards the fuselage (below might not actually be useful... maybe move it inboard), one at the top of the vertical fin looking down & forward, one each on the undersides of the tips of the horizontal stabs looking forward, one in the tail looking aft, one "dashcam" looking forward. Did my math right, that's 11 cameras. Would provide pretty much complete coverage of the aircraft and the space around it. Slow the framerate down to 5-10 per second, and you can store pretty much any route in onboard flash cards; or wire them in to an onboard "black box." Heck, make the footage available to the passengers to watch in flight, in real time; at the end of the flight they can push a button that orders DVDs of the flight footage. And if a missile tags the plane, it's a safe bet at least a few of the cameras will have caught sight of it.

Airliner inflight landscape camera systems that the passengers can watch have been available and used
for years. We used to joke about the 747 belly-mounted camera being the 'land-scrape camera'.

 

[phrenzy]

English translation of intercepted call between Russian fighters who admit to shooting down #MH13 jetliner

Source:
https://twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/status/489877190184796160

http://youtu.be/VnuHxAR01Jo

Its a civilian plane with a Malaysian Airlines logo on it, they were flying and we shot them down...they must have been dropping spies. Perfect conjecture!

I suppose being a rebel and dealing with sketchy intelligence folks makes you wildly conspiratorial and paranoid, because that sort of thinking seems to be prevalent in non state fighters.

 

[Triton]

"Plane Disaster in Ukraine Deepens Malaysia Airlines' Tragic Year"
By Bruce Einhorn July 17, 2014

Source:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-17/ukraine-plane-crash-deepens-malaysian-airlines-tragic-year

Four months after the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, tragedy has again struck the Southeast Asian carrier. According to the government of Ukraine, a Malaysian plane carrying 295 people crashed in the strife-torn eastern part of the country, near the border with Russia.

Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak has issued a statement on Twitter (TWTR) saying he is shocked by the crash and is launching “an immediate investigation.” Defense Minister Hishammuddin Hussein, who drew criticism for his handling of the Flight 370 disaster, is back in the spotlight and reported via Twitter that he is in constant touch with the prime minister, foreign minister, and transport minister.

The disaster comes while Malaysia Airlines (MAS:MK) is still trying to recover from the damage to its business from the disappearance of Flight 370. More than 150 Chinese nationals were on board the lost plane, and anger about the way the airline and government handled the crisis has kept many Chinese tourists away from Malaysia. Malaysia Airlines suffered a 4 percent decline in traffic for May, and the company’s stock price has dropped 27 percent so far this year.

Still, before Thursday’s crash in Ukraine, investors had demonstrated some optimism that the worst was over for the carrier. Khazanah Nasional, the government-owned investment fund that controls Malaysia Airlines, is considering restructuring the company along with possibly delisting the stock. After speculation last month that the investment fund would look to the Middle East for a partner to step in and help save Malaysia Airlines, the company’s Kuala Lumpur-listed shares soared 14 percent in one day. Contributing to the excitement were reports that the airline would team up with Etihad Airways, the carrier based in Abu Dhabi.

Etihad has indeed shown interest in bailing out distressed carriers, but unfortunately for Malaysia Airlines, so far those airlines are in Europe. Last month, Etihad unveiled a plan to take a 49 percent stake in Italian airline Alitalia, part of what Etihad Chief Executive James Hogan calls its role as a “rescue investor.” Among the other airlines getting a lift from Etihad are Aer Lingus (AERL:ID) and Air Serbia.

Whether Malaysia Airlines joins the list of sick airlines on the receiving end of an Etidhad lifeline remains to be seen. Khazanah issued a statement on July 3 saying media reports about a plan to take the airline private were “speculative.” The company did add, however, that “a comprehensive review of restructuring options for [Malaysia Airlines] is being undertaken and evaluated.”

 

[Jemiba]

Now I feel like you believe I am a ghoul. :'( That I have to defend myself.

If someone, who posted a link later deletes it again, because he thinks, that it is not
appropriate any longer, maybe we just should trust his judgement.
If someone says, he needs to know, what aircraft XYZ looked like on uncensored
photos, that's absolutely ok, because the reason is absolutely intelligible even to me.
But to ask the same for a crash site isn't just the same. Is it reasonably possible to
identify victims from such footage ? Or to identify the reason for the crash ?
And how can we be sure, that such material isn't censored either ?
So, what would it be worth ?

 

[Arjen]

NY Times has information about MH17's flight path and how some airlines were avoiding Ukrainian airspace

 

[blackkite]

Sad. :'(