MH17 photo of fighter jet...

Orionblamblam

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Or, more accurately...

MH17 photo of fighter jet released in Russia slammedA rather obvious Photoshop purports to show a Ukrainian fighter jet shooting down MH17. A Ukrainian SU-25 (according to the Russian government) that just happens to look a whole lot like a MiG-29 is shown shooting a missile at a 777 that just happens to look a whole lot like a 767 image found on Google, with Malaysian Airlines markings where Malaysian Airlines doesn't put 'em. Hasn't stopped Putin's media from proclaiming this as evidence that the Ukrainian air force, and not the pro-Russian separatists, shot down the airliner.
 

Stargazer2006

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When elaborating a lie of such proportions, you'd think the guys would resort to the most seasoned photoshopping experts to make it plausible... and yet they come up with this ridiculous fake and expect everyone to buy it...
 

Orionblamblam

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As with North Korean propaganda about Dear Leader being born on a mountaintop to a choir of angels and hitting a hole in one every time he golfs and so on, the goal isn't to get *everyone* to believe. Just to bolster those who already do. As with the Nork nonsense, there may even be perceived value in putting out propaganda that *outsiders* will find thoroughly laughable: it's a good way to drive a wedge between Them and Us.
 

UpForce

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Orionblamblam said:
As with North Korean propaganda about Dear Leader being born on a mountaintop to a choir of angels and hitting a hole in one every time he golfs and so on, the goal isn't to get *everyone* to believe. Just to bolster those who already do. As with the Nork nonsense, there may even be perceived value in putting out propaganda that *outsiders* will find thoroughly laughable: it's a good way to drive a wedge between Them and Us.

Guess so. There could also always be int'l information space control issues: obfuscate, distract, misinform, waste adversaries' resources. Bellincat just came out with their investigation which provides all the circumstantial evidence one might want about the Russians or their proxies operating a BUK AA system in the area and "displacing" one of their missiles while the Malaysian flight was brought down by "an energetic external event". Dutch investigators are removing the wreckage. Cold shoulders and stark comments abounded for Putin at G20.

The siloviki of course have a lot of experience in this kind of thing. As you say, such things are wedge issues. They scale very well, from micro to macro. A useful metric on one's authoritarian grip on a country/group is to introduce patently absurd statements into public discourse and measure the reaction. The more people publicly subscribe to them against basic rational reasoning the more passive/acquiescent/afraid they have become, the more society's structures revolve around one's "vertical power". Apart from the depravity of the leadership's motivation the process of such consolidation can be quite empirical within its own framework.

There's also the issue of projecting power. It is thoroughly distasteful to utilize (not to mention to possibly intentionally cause) civilian casualties in this way. This is a very purposeful signal of impunity and utter disdain for the perceived adversary and even the international community as a whole - much in the vein of overtly assassinating people in other countries, abductions of foreigners and so on and so on. Again the reactions are gauged and future (offensive, hostile) actions are scaled for effect.

On the whole it's a very petty and disappointing affair all around. The rest of us shouldn't constrain ourselves to reactive thinking.
 

Orionblamblam

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UpForce said:
A useful metric on one's authoritarian grip on a country/group is to introduce patently absurd statements into public discourse and measure the reaction. The more people publicly subscribe to them against basic rational reasoning the more passive/acquiescent/afraid they have become, the more society's structures revolve around one's "vertical power".

There is a specific psychological concept dealing with how people dig in when their beliefs are adequately shown to be false. The name escapes me.

Apart from the depravity of the leadership's motivation the process of such consolidation can be quite empirical within its own framework.

On the whole it's a very petty and disappointing affair all around. The rest of us shouldn't constrain ourselves to reactive thinking.

Indeed. Instead of constantly reacting, we should be proactive...

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Abraham Gubler

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Self-Deception. Triver's theory elaborates that self-deception evolved as a necessary trait for hunters to be better at deception of prey. That is as George Costanza would say "It isn't a lie if you believe its true" in order to defeat a polygraph. If you hide the truth from yourself you are better at hiding it from others. Of course in a more advanced society has the downside of meaning that lots of people are better at being deceptive and hold harmful self deceptive beliefs.
 

Triton

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The truth of the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17) crash is that the facts of this incident don't matter. The United States propaganda machine blames the Russian Federation and the Russian Federation propaganda machine blames Ukraine. According to American and German intelligence sources, the plane was shot down by pro-Russian separatists using a Buk surface-to-air missile fired from the territory which they controlled. What you believe to be true is more of an indication of where your loyalties lie. In twenty or thirty years perhaps we may find out what really happened on July 17, 2014.
 

Orionblamblam

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Or maybe we found out the day it happened when the separatists proudly proclaimed what they'd done (though they were wrong as to who).

Yes, every story has two sides. Doesn't mean both sides are equally valid.

teach_the_controversy_t-shirt_designs.jpg
 

Avimimus

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Pah, it is a Su-27... not a Mig-29 Scott :p

Although, oddly enough a Su-25 *might* be able to intercept a 777...

Also, with enough photoshop... maybe Airforce One could do it (didn't some AWACS have two external hardpoints? Wire up an AIM-9 and set it up so it is uncaged?)
 

marauder2048

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Orionblamblam said:
Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't PS an F-16 in there.

Or an F-22 so it could be like that episode of "The X-Files."
 

phrenzy

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This is par for the course with modern propaganda. Make something provocative that gets people riled up that's so obviously fake the government putting it out can't be tagged with making it because it's obviously not a serious effort at disinformation.

for example See: the whole Chinese internet.
 

Orionblamblam

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MH17 for English speakers

phrenzy said:
This is par for the course with modern propaganda. Make something provocative that gets people riled up that's so obviously fake the government putting it out can't be tagged with making it because it's obviously not a serious effort at disinformation.

Speaking of which, this supposed collection of audio intercepts among CIA operative discussing their dark conspiracy to bring down MH17. It's supposedly getting traction in Russia, but if you're a native English speaker... well...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BhJifVhqFU
 

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