An alternate F-11 Tiger

[SSgtC]

So are we concluding here that the actual Super Tiger could operate off a Majestic?

oh no... you might be able to land it if you were lucky.. but you are going to get craned off

Yeah, to launch off of these smaller carriers would require extensive modifications. You would need an extended nose wheel (like the double extending strut of the F-4K), BLC, and a high thrust engine including launching in burner. The extended strut would knock about 17 knots off the minimum launch speed, while the BLC would knock off another 4-5 knots. An enlarged wing would take off a few more and bigger flaps another few. All told, you could probably knock about 25-30 knots off the minimum launch speed with the right modifications. But the RW Super Tiger couldn't launch off of anything less than a C11 cat.

 

[GK Dundas]

Look for the Burchell ( sp. ?) Report roughly 63-64.
It laid out a marvelous possible general purpose Navy . It made not only for interesting reading because it wasn't the usual attempt at fantasy.
Burchell was one of the Government's top men and had a no nonsense reputation.

Tried to find the Burchell Report of 1964: lots of references on the web, no hits for the report itself

It dates back to the early bronze age if you like of modern computing. I suspect it exists only in paper form . Published sometime in the early sixties for some reason 1964 pops into my head.

 

[bobtdwarf]

No they couldn’t - the Majestics, even when significantly refitted, could just about take straight wing generation combat jets and later (only relatives lightly loaded) subsonic designs like the Skyhawk.
The Crusader with specific modifications only just about operated off the rather larger and more modern French carriers.

The determining factor here is wing loading. The historic Tiger weighs 13,810 pounds empty, 21,035 gross. The F2H Banshee which was used on mod Majestics weighs 13,183 empty, 21,013 gross and had about a 2000 pound greater max take off weight than the tiger... and 294-ish square feet of wing. The wing doesn't know, or care if you are subsonic or super, it cares how much lard it has to get skyward. You get the wing loading down to the same level as a Banshee on the Tiger and off she goes! At 250 square feet and a weight of 21k the Tiger has a WL of 84 the Banshee 71. The A-4 at the same weight is 81, and you could not get a full load A-4 off the deck, but you could get one about 18-19k and that is a WL in the low 70's.

 

[bobtdwarf]

So are we concluding here that the actual Super Tiger could operate off a Majestic?

oh no... you might be able to land it if you were lucky.. but you are going to get craned off

Yeah, to launch off of these smaller carriers would require extensive modifications. You would need an extended nose wheel (like the double extending strut of the F-4K), BLC, and a high thrust engine including launching in burner. The extended strut would knock about 17 knots off the minimum launch speed, while the BLC would knock off another 4-5 knots. An enlarged wing would take off a few more and bigger flaps another few. All told, you could probably knock about 25-30 knots off the minimum launch speed with the right modifications. But the RW Super Tiger couldn't launch off of anything less than a C11 cat.

You probably don't have to go that far if you only need a basic A2A load out or to carry a couple of small rocket pods or a couple of 500 pounders.. the bigger wing will get you all the way there on its own... you want a launch weight over 20-21k you are going to need all the bells and whistles. Don't think the extended nose wheel would be possible with how the Tiger sits already.. she would drag her tail.

 

[Pioneer]

As a matter of fact, nobody tried to "shrink" the Crusader around a J79, or go even smaller. Crusader killed Skylancer and Super Tiger, N-156N never happened, SR-177 was scrapped in infancy and France went for Crusaders.

Well Archibald there was the Chance-Vought V-384 design, a smaller derivative of larger V-383 (F8U-1 Crusader), powered by the J65 turbojet. Although not the J79, the J65/V-384 derivative would have been supersonic, smaller and lighter and hence more suited to the smaller Majestic-class type carrier.

How many V-384 do you thing would have to be ordered before Vought would actually tool up and produced them?

Regards
Pioneer

I did raise a thread on this once if I reccal correctly.....no one wanted to engage with it oddly...

Since more could be achieved by AS on the Sapphire it wasn't unreasonable a concept.

On the Colossus/Majestic front, there were studies into Trade Protection Carriers based on the Scimitar. It was possible to design them to operate such in limited numbers.

Sorry Zen, could you please direct me to your said post please:

I did raise a thread on this once if I reccal correctly.....no one wanted to engage with it oddly...

At the end of the day, in my humble opinion, the Supermarine Scimitar was both over-sized, overly heavy and all but obsolete in terms of a fighter.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Archibald]

So are we concluding here that the actual Super Tiger could operate off a Majestic?

oh no... you might be able to land it if you were lucky.. but you are going to get craned off

Yeah, to launch off of these smaller carriers would require extensive modifications. You would need an extended nose wheel (like the double extending strut of the F-4K), BLC, and a high thrust engine including launching in burner. The extended strut would knock about 17 knots off the minimum launch speed, while the BLC would knock off another 4-5 knots. An enlarged wing would take off a few more and bigger flaps another few. All told, you could probably knock about 25-30 knots off the minimum launch speed with the right modifications. But the RW Super Tiger couldn't launch off of anything less than a C11 cat.

You probably don't have to go that far if you only need a basic A2A load out or to carry a couple of small rocket pods or a couple of 500 pounders.. the bigger wing will get you all the way there on its own... you want a launch weight over 20-21k you are going to need all the bells and whistles. Don't think the extended nose wheel would be possible with how the Tiger sits already.. she would drag her tail.

Never thought before that raising the nose with an extended nose wheel strut could cut so much launching speed out of a naval fighter. That explains why the Etendard IVM nose was perched so high. I suppose the most important word is "incidence" as in "Crusader variable incidence wing". "Varied incidence nosewheel strut" - VINS

 

[SSgtC]

Never thought before that raising the nose with an extended nose wheel strut could cut so much launching speed out of a naval fighter. That explains why the Etendard IVM nose was perched so high. I suppose the most important word is "incidence" as in "Crusader variable incidence wing". "Varied incidence nosewheel strut" - VINS

Yeah, it's something to do with the angle of attack and the required airspeed to put the wing in that position for the aircraft to take off. The USN (prior to the F-4K) studied it and determined that an extended nose wheel would reduce the minimum launch speed of the F-4 by 17 knots. IIRC, they proposed it to Australia when the RAN inquiried about purchasing an Essex class carrier and Phantoms to fly off of it. It was proposed as a way to make operations in hot and humid conditions more reliable (and to compensate for the reduced speed an Essex class could deliver during flight operations).

The variable incidence wing on the Crusader was done for the same reason. It increased the wing's angle of attack, which reduced the minimum launch speed (IIRC, it was reduced by around 10 knots).

 

[zen]

As a matter of fact, nobody tried to "shrink" the Crusader around a J79, or go even smaller. Crusader killed Skylancer and Super Tiger, N-156N never happened, SR-177 was scrapped in infancy and France went for Crusaders.

Well Archibald there was the Chance-Vought V-384 design, a smaller derivative of larger V-383 (F8U-1 Crusader), powered by the J65 turbojet. Although not the J79, the J65/V-384 derivative would have been supersonic, smaller and lighter and hence more suited to the smaller Majestic-class type carrier.

How many V-384 do you thing would have to be ordered before Vought would actually tool up and produced them?

Regards
Pioneer

I did raise a thread on this once if I reccal correctly.....no one wanted to engage with it oddly...

Since more could be achieved by AS on the Sapphire it wasn't unreasonable a concept.

On the Colossus/Majestic front, there were studies into Trade Protection Carriers based on the Scimitar. It was possible to design them to operate such in limited numbers.

Sorry Zen, could you please direct me to your said post please:

I did raise a thread on this once if I reccal correctly.....no one wanted to engage with it oddly...

At the end of the day, in my humble opinion, the Supermarine Scimitar was both over-sized, overly heavy and all but obsolete in terms of a fighter.

Regards
Pioneer

Can't remember where that was now.
Anyway the reference to Scimitar is relevant due to size, weight and TO&L speeds. Not the actual Scimitar performance capabilities.

Essentially it's of use for opting for Crusaders if the carrier was designed around notional aircraft similar to the Scimitar in size, weight and TO&L speeds.

The context of the smaller and lighter Vought offering with J65 is they should be even easier.

 

[bobtdwarf]

Never thought before that raising the nose with an extended nose wheel strut could cut so much launching speed out of a naval fighter. That explains why the Etendard IVM nose was perched so high. I suppose the most important word is "incidence" as in "Crusader variable incidence wing". "Varied incidence nosewheel strut" - VINS

Yeah, it's something to do with the angle of attack and the required airspeed to put the wing in that position for the aircraft to take off. The USN (prior to the F-4K) studied it and determined that an extended nose wheel would reduce the minimum launch speed of the F-4 by 17 knots. IIRC, they proposed it to Australia when the RAN inquiried about purchasing an Essex class carrier and Phantoms to fly off of it. It was proposed as a way to make operations in hot and humid conditions more reliable (and to compensate for the reduced speed an Essex class could deliver during flight operations).

The variable incidence wing on the Crusader was done for the same reason. It increased the wing's angle of attack, which reduced the minimum launch speed (IIRC, it was reduced by around 10 knots).

The Tiger squats pretty far down in the tail to take advantage of that to a point. All of the illustrations have it down but some photos show it higher than illustrated.. no reference to active hydraulics so the photos may be for a totally EMPTY-EMPTY aircraft and they aren't under much pressure.

 

[bobtdwarf]

I don't understand how Grumman missed the boat on the Tiger. The Cougar starts off with a 300 wing.. the navy wanted even more lift so they eventually went up to 337 and the BLC experiments. I must be missing some aspects of timing but they had to know that 250 was just NOT going to cut it.

Edit: We can see that with the 98-L which was drawn up pretty early on but they must have been sacrificing a lot to go for the lowest amount of drag to get the fastest speed.

 

[SSgtC]

I don't understand how Grumman missed the boat on the Tiger. The Cougar starts off with a 300 wing.. the navy wanted even more lift so they eventually went up to 337 and the BLC experiments. I must be missing some aspects of timing but they had to know that 250 was just NOT going to cut it.

Edit: We can see that with the 98-L which was drawn up pretty early on but they must have been sacrificing a lot to go for the lowest amount of drag to get the fastest speed.

Well, the Tiger was designed around the same time as the F-104 and that thing has a minuscule wing. So I'm thinking it may have been one of those "facts" that "everyone knows" that supersonic aircraft need smaller wings

 

[bobtdwarf]

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/you-have-40-ish-million-pounds-to-build-a-cv-for-the-rn-early-60s-what-does-it-look-like.40164/page-4

Been a bit stressed so have been thinking about this again as a stress reliever... Using the 50 million pound budget assigned to the development of the F-4K and using $2.80 as the exchange rate for the era... that is enough to afford 140 SuperTigers at $950k per unit. That cost was for the original historic run and spread the program costs amongst the units built.

So since those hard costs are already paid for that margin can be used to pay for any tweaks and keep the per unit costs constant. This would leave the money spent on the 48 or so RN Phantoms after the development costs to go toward the construction of a replacement for Ark Royal instead of her rebuild. I can't see the swapping of an Avon costing all that much so the only unknown that I have no means of a reasonable guess on is integration of avionics.

 

[Archibald]

Been a bit stressed so have been thinking about this again as a stress reliever

Sounds familiar. I've been doing the same since 2008. Sometimes it really helps to retreat to a personal aerospace daydreaming & world building exercise. In fact I actually survived 2014 horror year and brutal midlife crisis that way.

 

[bobtdwarf]

Been a bit stressed so have been thinking about this again as a stress reliever

Sounds familiar. I've been doing the same since 2008. Sometimes it really helps to retreat to a personal aerospace daydreaming & world building exercise. In fact I actually survived 2014 horror year and brutal midlife crisis that way.

using a different part of the brain to chew on something for a bit is a good thing for resilience

 

[Archibald]

Amen to that, bro' .

 

[orlovsky]

Ok.. so lets look at a best case scenario.. with the additional fuel in the wing Tiger easily meets the loiter/range requirement for the USN GP fighter which would replace the F3 Demon, perhaps not en masse since the Phantom replaced many of those, but at least in usage on the Essex class carriers. So at the worst the Tiger would stay in carrier service until 1964. In a best case they slot J-79 into some new build airframes and convert some existing (if practical), and still use the F-8 in the day fighter role, one Tiger squadron and 1 Crusader on the CVA-19s and however many the CVS's carried to chase Bears/Badgers away even if still fitted with the J-65 in that role the economics now make sense with other Tiger units in service.

I guess the CVS are the only niche to squeeze in a third type besides Crusader and Phantom. The CVS had a fighter detachment, banshees or later 4 skyhawks with sidewinders (not all weather capable).

CVS Carrier Self Defense

In the mid-1950s, several Essex-class carriers were repurposed from attack to antisubmarine warfare and redesignated from CVA to CVS. Althou...

thanlont.blogspot.com

The VSF Story by CDR Robert R. 'Boom' Powell Part 1 - VSF-1 Anti-Submarine Warfare Fighter Squadron One ADMIN/Personnel Office

www.ebdir.net

So for some reason, the navy decides it needs better fighter protection for the CVS and looks for an all weather fighter that can be launched from the H8 catapult and land with the MK5 arresting gear. Difficult, but if you pull it off, it will work from virtually all steam catapults, including short and low pressure ones. The export markets look bright, but only if the USN orders the type. Might even eat into the crusader due to its lack of radome space.

The H8 had 105 kts endspeed @ 15k lbs, from there on 1-2 kts down per 1000 lbs. Can launch heavy aircraft, just at slow speeds. Even an S-3.

Problem: The wind over deck requirement rises fast, especially with 50s type jets, and it is no longer practical. If you are looking for something like 25k lbs, this is from the F-6 Skyray SAC:



So at 23k lbs the F-6 needs 26 kts wod. Stall speed would be about 120 kts. That's about the limit you'd have to keep to with the super tiger, less at higher weights.
The Tiger had a stall speed of 133 kts @ 24k lbs. If you are looking for a heavier plane, you have to pull out all the stops: nose gear for angle, maybe blc - but it might be too early for that...

 

[SSgtC]

Ok.. so lets look at a best case scenario.. with the additional fuel in the wing Tiger easily meets the loiter/range requirement for the USN GP fighter which would replace the F3 Demon, perhaps not en masse since the Phantom replaced many of those, but at least in usage on the Essex class carriers. So at the worst the Tiger would stay in carrier service until 1964. In a best case they slot J-79 into some new build airframes and convert some existing (if practical), and still use the F-8 in the day fighter role, one Tiger squadron and 1 Crusader on the CVA-19s and however many the CVS's carried to chase Bears/Badgers away even if still fitted with the J-65 in that role the economics now make sense with other Tiger units in service.

I guess the CVS are the only niche to squeeze in a third type besides Crusader and Phantom. The CVS had a fighter detachment, banshees or later 4 skyhawks with sidewinders (not all weather capable).

CVS Carrier Self Defense

In the mid-1950s, several Essex-class carriers were repurposed from attack to antisubmarine warfare and redesignated from CVA to CVS. Althou...

thanlont.blogspot.com

The VSF Story by CDR Robert R. 'Boom' Powell Part 1 - VSF-1 Anti-Submarine Warfare Fighter Squadron One ADMIN/Personnel Office

www.ebdir.net

So for some reason, the navy decides it needs better fighter protection for the CVS and looks for an all weather fighter that can be launched from the H8 catapult and land with the MK5 arresting gear. Difficult, but if you pull it off, it will work from virtually all steam catapults, including short and low pressure ones. The export markets look bright, but only if the USN orders the type. Might even eat into the crusader due to its lack of radome space.

The H8 had 105 kts endspeed @ 15k lbs, from there on 1-2 kts down per 1000 lbs. Can launch heavy aircraft, just at slow speeds. Even an S-3.

Problem: The wind over deck requirement rises fast, especially with 50s type jets, and it is no longer practical. If you are looking for something like 25k lbs, this is from the F-6 Skyray SAC:
View attachment 687416


So at 23k lbs the F-6 needs 26 kts wod. Stall speed would be about 120 kts. That's about the limit you'd have to keep to with the super tiger, less at higher weights.
The Tiger had a stall speed of 133 kts @ 24k lbs. If you are looking for a heavier plane, you have to pull out all the stops: nose gear for angle, maybe blc - but it might be too early for that...

The one thing that the H8 equipped Essex class had going for them, is that their cats don't need any steam diverted from propulsion. So unlike the C11 equipped Essex class, the H8 boats can still make 31-33 knots during flight operations. With any kind of a wind, you could easily get 40-50+ knots of WOD to launch heavier aircraft.

 

[Archibald]

... that very Simpsons D'OOOOOH moment when you realizes that plain old HYDRAULIC catapults have that big advantage over STEAM ones: they don't draw their power from the ship powerplant...

Now that's an interesting question. Which one is best: hydraulic H-8 with a 33 kt ship, or steam C11 with a steam ship, slowing it down ?

 

[SSgtC]

... that very Simpsons D'OOOOOH moment when you realizes that plain old HYDRAULIC catapults have that big advantage over STEAM ones: they don't draw their power from the ship powerplant...

Now that's an interesting question. Which one is best: hydraulic H-8 with a 33 kt ship, or steam C11 with a steam ship, slowing it down ?

Steam, 100% of the time. The C11 could launch an aircraft weighing 39,000 pounds at 136 knots. Add in the roughly 19 knots that the ship could give you while diverting steam to the cats, and you're at 155 knots. Plus whatever ambient wind there is. Hell, even an aircraft weighing 70,000 pounds could still be fired off a C11 at 108 knots. And the numbers only go up from there with the C7 and C13. The higher shuttle end run speed also ensures that you can launch in more conditions than the H8 can. What if there's no wind? Now you're only getting whatever the cat can give you plus ship speed. Well, the C11 can give you 130+ knots. The H8 can give you 105, max. I'll go with the C11 every single time

 

[orlovsky]

If you look at the RN Phantom plans, they calculated with 25 kts Hermes and 28kts Eagle ship speed which is just 2-3 kts below maximum. That is a very small penalty compared to the advantage of steam catapults. And even if it goes to 5 kts or more in the extreme, it's still small. Just look at the gap for the S-3:



Also, more than 40 kts wod appears are not practical, the charts usually end about there. And you can't rely on it - when you have zero wind, the plane, expecially the fighter, should still be able to launch....

 

[bobtdwarf]

That 133 MPH is minimum safe approach speed.. power on STALL was 105. I listed it and the adjustments for additional wing area in the first post... it does get potentially dicey at some weights on the CVS but it is worth it to have a higher performance all weather fighter on it. Might actually push the USN to do a turboprop conversion on the S2/E1's so you could get a tanker function or just launch at a slightly lower fuel state to give some margin.

 

[bobtdwarf]

Ok.. so lets look at a best case scenario.. with the additional fuel in the wing Tiger easily meets the loiter/range requirement for the USN GP fighter which would replace the F3 Demon, perhaps not en masse since the Phantom replaced many of those, but at least in usage on the Essex class carriers. So at the worst the Tiger would stay in carrier service until 1964. In a best case they slot J-79 into some new build airframes and convert some existing (if practical), and still use the F-8 in the day fighter role, one Tiger squadron and 1 Crusader on the CVA-19s and however many the CVS's carried to chase Bears/Badgers away even if still fitted with the J-65 in that role the economics now make sense with other Tiger units in service.

I guess the CVS are the only niche to squeeze in a third type besides Crusader and Phantom. The CVS had a fighter detachment, banshees or later 4 skyhawks with sidewinders (not all weather capable).

CVS Carrier Self Defense

In the mid-1950s, several Essex-class carriers were repurposed from attack to antisubmarine warfare and redesignated from CVA to CVS. Althou...

thanlont.blogspot.com

The VSF Story by CDR Robert R. 'Boom' Powell Part 1 - VSF-1 Anti-Submarine Warfare Fighter Squadron One ADMIN/Personnel Office

www.ebdir.net

So for some reason, the navy decides it needs better fighter protection for the CVS and looks for an all weather fighter that can be launched from the H8 catapult and land with the MK5 arresting gear. Difficult, but if you pull it off, it will work from virtually all steam catapults, including short and low pressure ones. The export markets look bright, but only if the USN orders the type. Might even eat into the crusader due to its lack of radome space.

The H8 had 105 kts endspeed @ 15k lbs, from there on 1-2 kts down per 1000 lbs. Can launch heavy aircraft, just at slow speeds. Even an S-3.

Problem: The wind over deck requirement rises fast, especially with 50s type jets, and it is no longer practical. If you are looking for something like 25k lbs, this is from the F-6 Skyray SAC:
View attachment 687416


So at 23k lbs the F-6 needs 26 kts wod. Stall speed would be about 120 kts. That's about the limit you'd have to keep to with the super tiger, less at higher weights.
The Tiger had a stall speed of 133 kts @ 24k lbs. If you are looking for a heavier plane, you have to pull out all the stops: nose gear for angle, maybe blc - but it might be too early for that...

The fun thing about the alternate here is the wing is a ripoff of the FJ-4 which operated from H-8 ships so it should work without much issue, even with the shorter span wing the wing loading would be comparable to the A-4's that operated from the CVS. So A2A load outs should be mostly fine even some A2G ones should be doable.

As long as you can launch at a given load at about 110-115 knots you should fit within practice of the time, though 130+ would be ideal... they would generally be happy with 5 knots above stall which with power on is roughly 105 knots... the 133 figure is for safe approach speed according to the SAC.

 

[orlovsky]

Ok.. so lets look at a best case scenario.. with the additional fuel in the wing Tiger easily meets the loiter/range requirement for the USN GP fighter which would replace the F3 Demon, perhaps not en masse since the Phantom replaced many of those, but at least in usage on the Essex class carriers. So at the worst the Tiger would stay in carrier service until 1964. In a best case they slot J-79 into some new build airframes and convert some existing (if practical), and still use the F-8 in the day fighter role, one Tiger squadron and 1 Crusader on the CVA-19s and however many the CVS's carried to chase Bears/Badgers away even if still fitted with the J-65 in that role the economics now make sense with other Tiger units in service.

I guess the CVS are the only niche to squeeze in a third type besides Crusader and Phantom. The CVS had a fighter detachment, banshees or later 4 skyhawks with sidewinders (not all weather capable).

CVS Carrier Self Defense

In the mid-1950s, several Essex-class carriers were repurposed from attack to antisubmarine warfare and redesignated from CVA to CVS. Althou...

thanlont.blogspot.com

The VSF Story by CDR Robert R. 'Boom' Powell Part 1 - VSF-1 Anti-Submarine Warfare Fighter Squadron One ADMIN/Personnel Office

www.ebdir.net

So for some reason, the navy decides it needs better fighter protection for the CVS and looks for an all weather fighter that can be launched from the H8 catapult and land with the MK5 arresting gear. Difficult, but if you pull it off, it will work from virtually all steam catapults, including short and low pressure ones. The export markets look bright, but only if the USN orders the type. Might even eat into the crusader due to its lack of radome space.

The H8 had 105 kts endspeed @ 15k lbs, from there on 1-2 kts down per 1000 lbs. Can launch heavy aircraft, just at slow speeds. Even an S-3.

Problem: The wind over deck requirement rises fast, especially with 50s type jets, and it is no longer practical. If you are looking for something like 25k lbs, this is from the F-6 Skyray SAC:
View attachment 687416


So at 23k lbs the F-6 needs 26 kts wod. Stall speed would be about 120 kts. That's about the limit you'd have to keep to with the super tiger, less at higher weights.
The Tiger had a stall speed of 133 kts @ 24k lbs. If you are looking for a heavier plane, you have to pull out all the stops: nose gear for angle, maybe blc - but it might be too early for that...

The fun thing about the alternate here is the wing is a ripoff of the FJ-4 which operated from H-8 ships so it should work without much issue, even with the shorter span wing the wing loading would be comparable to the A-4's that operated from the CVS. So A2A load outs should be mostly fine even some A2G ones should be doable.

As long as you can launch at a given load at about 110-115 knots you should fit within practice of the time, though 130+ would be ideal... they would generally be happy with 5 knots above stall which with power on is roughly 105 knots... the 133 figure is for safe approach speed according to the SAC.

I am not sure I follow you there. Stall speed depends on weight, and the 105 kts is for the light trap weight. But we need launch weight.

For example, f-4j sac. 51k launch weight, stall 145 kts. For trap weight 119 kts. The c-11 + engine power is about 120 kts, and you need 30+ knts wod. 145stall+5 safety - 120=30 wod.

So the Tiger needs 135+ kts for launch.

 

[SSgtC]

I am not sure I follow you there. Stall speed depends on weight, and the 105 kts is for the light trap weight. But we need launch weight.

For example, f-4j sac. 51k launch weight, stall 145 kts. For trap weight 119 kts. The c-11 + engine power is about 120 kts, and you need 30+ knts wod. 145stall+5 safety - 120=30 wod.

So the Tiger needs 135+ kts for launch.

Your numbers are off a bit. At a launch weight of 51,000 pounds, the C11 will give you 125 knots, plus 19 knots from the ship, gives you 144 knots total. Even a Midway class can only give you 148 total (pre-SCB101.66). Yet they operated Phantoms just fine. Even the Essex could easily launch a Phantom, and did so routinely during training, carrier qualifications, and when used as an emergency landing area (there's a rather famous picture of an F-4 "captured" by Bonnie Dick after it ran low on fuel). At 52,000 pounds, per the F-4J SAC, the C11-1 needs 24 knots WOD to launch.

For the Tiger, at 24,000 pounds, it has a power off stall speed of 133 knots. Again, power off. At that weight, the H8 can give you 96 knots and the carrier can give you another 31 for a total of 127. But with the proposed mods, including a new wing, that number will drop significantly. Between a new wing, a BLC system and possibly a modified nose wheel to increase the angle of attack on launch, you could drop your power off stall speed down to about 100 knots (based on how the F-4K had a much lower launch speed than the J because of the nose wheel (17 knots reduction) and the BLC (4-5 knots reduction)).

 

[orlovsky]

The numbers are pretty much the same, just that wod = natural wind + ship speed.

So for the tiger you get 37 wod. For a heavier plane, add 2-3 kts per 1000 lbs. We should get down to 30, better 25 kts, to keep it practical: if need be, wod completely from ship speed, and also in the tropics.

Phantom experience:
Nosegear 9-12 kts
Drooped ailerons 3-4 kts
Blc a good deal, will post the graph later. But also adds further weigt.

 

[Archibald]

WOD : Wind Over Deck, I presume ?

 

[bobtdwarf]

Ok.. so lets look at a best case scenario.. with the additional fuel in the wing Tiger easily meets the loiter/range requirement for the USN GP fighter which would replace the F3 Demon, perhaps not en masse since the Phantom replaced many of those, but at least in usage on the Essex class carriers. So at the worst the Tiger would stay in carrier service until 1964. In a best case they slot J-79 into some new build airframes and convert some existing (if practical), and still use the F-8 in the day fighter role, one Tiger squadron and 1 Crusader on the CVA-19s and however many the CVS's carried to chase Bears/Badgers away even if still fitted with the J-65 in that role the economics now make sense with other Tiger units in service.

I guess the CVS are the only niche to squeeze in a third type besides Crusader and Phantom. The CVS had a fighter detachment, banshees or later 4 skyhawks with sidewinders (not all weather capable).

CVS Carrier Self Defense

In the mid-1950s, several Essex-class carriers were repurposed from attack to antisubmarine warfare and redesignated from CVA to CVS. Althou...

thanlont.blogspot.com

The VSF Story by CDR Robert R. 'Boom' Powell Part 1 - VSF-1 Anti-Submarine Warfare Fighter Squadron One ADMIN/Personnel Office

www.ebdir.net

So for some reason, the navy decides it needs better fighter protection for the CVS and looks for an all weather fighter that can be launched from the H8 catapult and land with the MK5 arresting gear. Difficult, but if you pull it off, it will work from virtually all steam catapults, including short and low pressure ones. The export markets look bright, but only if the USN orders the type. Might even eat into the crusader due to its lack of radome space.

The H8 had 105 kts endspeed @ 15k lbs, from there on 1-2 kts down per 1000 lbs. Can launch heavy aircraft, just at slow speeds. Even an S-3.

Problem: The wind over deck requirement rises fast, especially with 50s type jets, and it is no longer practical. If you are looking for something like 25k lbs, this is from the F-6 Skyray SAC:
View attachment 687416


So at 23k lbs the F-6 needs 26 kts wod. Stall speed would be about 120 kts. That's about the limit you'd have to keep to with the super tiger, less at higher weights.
The Tiger had a stall speed of 133 kts @ 24k lbs. If you are looking for a heavier plane, you have to pull out all the stops: nose gear for angle, maybe blc - but it might be too early for that...

The fun thing about the alternate here is the wing is a ripoff of the FJ-4 which operated from H-8 ships so it should work without much issue, even with the shorter span wing the wing loading would be comparable to the A-4's that operated from the CVS. So A2A load outs should be mostly fine even some A2G ones should be doable.

As long as you can launch at a given load at about 110-115 knots you should fit within practice of the time, though 130+ would be ideal... they would generally be happy with 5 knots above stall which with power on is roughly 105 knots... the 133 figure is for safe approach speed according to the SAC.

I am not sure I follow you there. Stall speed depends on weight, and the 105 kts is for the light trap weight. But we need launch weight.

For example, f-4j sac. 51k launch weight, stall 145 kts. For trap weight 119 kts. The c-11 + engine power is about 120 kts, and you need 30+ knts wod. 145stall+5 safety - 120=30 wod.

So the Tiger needs 135+ kts for launch.

https://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/FJ-4B_SAC_-_30_January_1959.pdf

https://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/F11F-1_Tiger_SAC_-_30_June_1957.pdf

So we got them handy... yeah stall is weight dependent and I forgot that the standard landing weight for the F-11 is listed at variations of 15k and change. That ranged from 103.3 to 104.9 with approach power 106/107 without so you are probably correct scaling up the weight. I will note though that 51k is about double the launch weight of the FJ-4 so I think what happened is you read the weight listed in pounds as listed in kilos and did the math..

Okay so looking at launch weights, which I generally have used 25k for with this deducting the listed light weight, comparing the increase between the two highest weights I make it at about 124/5 knots. It is a bit over 9000 pounds difference in listed weights on the SAC about 500 pounds difference between the listed weights and about a knot difference so call it 18 knots and change added to the listed stall and add 5 knots for the margin I have been told on here they used... lets call it 130 knots needed to launch this bird at 25k pounds with the 250 sqft. wings of the Tiger, it gets a bit more difficult to eyeball with the FJ-4 style wing on the alternate as there are control surface changes that will affect lift.

The FJ-4 has a listed landing weight 1000 pounds higher than the Tiger, and the one knot difference is closer to 350 pounds than 500 so I have in the past compared it more to the F9F-8 Cougar which at 15,915 pounds trap weight and 337 sqft of wing, but closer to the Tiger in control surfaces has a approach power stall of 99.1 knots to "eyeball" this sucker. Grumman did BLC tests on the -6 Cougar at 300 sqft. of wing and that knocked 17 MPH off the landing and added the equivalent of 7 MPH WOD on takeoff but when using it as a factor for discussion I have used 5/15 just to make the math easier.

 

[orlovsky]

I was using the f-4j as an example only. And it's almost the fj-4, but only almost...

 

[bobtdwarf]

speaking of nose wheel... the Tigers is already kind of jacked up given the ground line on the drawings.. not sure how much more you could jack her up without dragging her tail

 

[bobtdwarf]

I was using the f-4j as an example only. And it's almost the fj-4, but only almost...

yeah the wing and nearly weight so a fair comparison... I am just not qualified on the difference in performance between leading edge droop and slats when it comes to lift and which is "better"

 

[orlovsky]

Give it a tailwheel like the buccaneer?

 

[bobtdwarf]

Give it a tailwheel like the buccaneer?

I did not consider that! The part I am most worried about rubbing is the AB. Not saying you probably couldn't squeeze a few inches out but I have no clue how that would effect things.

In post 1 the difference in wing area effect on lift/launch speed is based on math I found online of how increased wing area alters that.. and it was generally in keeping with the comparison to the F9F-6/8 figures so I kept them. I have tried to be cautious and conservative.

 

[bobtdwarf]

The listed minimum cat launch for the F9F-8 is 127 knots.


Edit: The number of aircraft with launch speeds in the 125+ knot range that operated off the H-8 ships amazes me! Especially given their listed weights and weapons loads.

 

[bobtdwarf]

oh lord I am an idiot! Orlovsky.. I thought you were referring to the F-4JB FURY not the Phantom!!!! I apologize

 

[uk 75]

Not sure if this is the right place to pose this question, but it seems to fit.
Why do the US and UK navies go for ever larger aircraft in this period when it is clear that smaller aircraft would be easier to use even on the Forrestals.
We seem to have reversed the process since the 80s with F14 giving way to F18 and then to F35.
The paper exercise here with SuperTiger suggests there were other options.

 

[SSgtC]

I was using the f-4j as an example only. And it's almost the fj-4, but only almost...

yeah the wing and nearly weight so a fair comparison... I am just not qualified on the difference in performance between leading edge droop and slats when it comes to lift and which is "better"

You could also put telescoping main wheels (or even just taller main gear period) on the Tiger in order to give it an extending nose wheel. It really depends how badly you want to get it on board or not

 

[SSgtC]

Not sure if this is the right place to pose this question, but it seems to fit.
Why do the US and UK navies go for ever larger aircraft in this period when it is clear that smaller aircraft would be easier to use even on the Forrestals.
We seem to have reversed the process since the 80s with F14 giving way to F18 and then to F35.
The paper exercise here with SuperTiger suggests there were other options.

In short, you got better performance out of the aircraft. Even today, the Super Bug and Lightning don't have anywhere near the range or payload of the aircraft they replaced. And in the Hornet's case, it's also significantly slower than the Tomcat when conducting a deck launched intercept. So yeah, they don't take up as much room, but you're trading off some capability for that space savings

 

[uk 75]

Not sure if this is the right place to pose this question, but it seems to fit.
Why do the US and UK navies go for ever larger aircraft in this period when it is clear that smaller aircraft would be easier to use even on the Forrestals.
We seem to have reversed the process since the 80s with F14 giving way to F18 and then to F35.
The paper exercise here with SuperTiger suggests there were other options.

In short, you got better performance out of the aircraft. Even today, the Super Bug and Lightning don't have anywhere near the range or payload of the aircraft they replaced. And in the Hornet's case, it's also significantly slower than the Tomcat when conducting a deck launched intercept. So yeah, they don't take up as much room, but you're trading off some capability for that space savings

I suppose the end of the Cold War explains that willingness to some extent. But was the high end stuff like the F4 and F14 always necessary?

 

[SSgtC]

Not sure if this is the right place to pose this question, but it seems to fit.
Why do the US and UK navies go for ever larger aircraft in this period when it is clear that smaller aircraft would be easier to use even on the Forrestals.
We seem to have reversed the process since the 80s with F14 giving way to F18 and then to F35.
The paper exercise here with SuperTiger suggests there were other options.

In short, you got better performance out of the aircraft. Even today, the Super Bug and Lightning don't have anywhere near the range or payload of the aircraft they replaced. And in the Hornet's case, it's also significantly slower than the Tomcat when conducting a deck launched intercept. So yeah, they don't take up as much room, but you're trading off some capability for that space savings

I suppose the end of the Cold War explains that willingness to some extent. But was the high end stuff like the F4 and F14 always necessary?

Yes! Especially as ASMs got longer ranged. Aircraft like the Banshee and Tiger could (barely) intercept a Badger carrying a KS-1 Komet that had a range of 80nm. They had no hope of intercepting a Badger that was carrying a KH-22 that had a range of 320nm, a top speed of Mach 4.6, and possibly packing a nuclear warhead. Keep in mind, a Tiger has a combat radius of 290nm. So a Badger could launch outside of the Tiger's intercept range.

And a Backfire? Forget about it. The Navy needed a plane that could intercept a Backfire at least 500 miles from the carrier, and that could engage multiple bombers from one aircraft. The Navy desperately needed the Tomcat to keep its carriers safe(ish). It was the only aircraft that had any kind of prayer of conducting a successful intercept if we ever went to the war with the USSR.

 

[bobtdwarf]

Not sure if this is the right place to pose this question, but it seems to fit.
Why do the US and UK navies go for ever larger aircraft in this period when it is clear that smaller aircraft would be easier to use even on the Forrestals.
We seem to have reversed the process since the 80s with F14 giving way to F18 and then to F35.
The paper exercise here with SuperTiger suggests there were other options.

only speculation on my part but... I suspect that it is about manipulating the US congress into funding LARGE nuclear carriers: Big planes don't fit on small carriers particularly well. Sure you can say it is about being able to carry big radars and there is a point to it, but they wanted large carriers and this ensures it best. The RN was just playing follow the leader, their looking into VTOL shows they knew smaller carriers were a way forward, but they they wanted a big capable hull.