An alternate F-11 Tiger

bobtdwarf

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Although the Sverdlov cruisers alarmed the RN sufficiently for it to develop Buccaneer and get it into service on Victorious, Hermes, Eagle and Ark (Green Cheese was not so lucky) the main work of RN carriers in general war was seen as being ASW.
The focus was on getting whatever could be got into service.
Reinforcing Singapore and providing fighter cover with their Tigers would have been the main impetus for using Bulwark and Albion as well as Centaur and Hermes as fixed wing carriers. With Victorious, Eagle and Ark they would have worked hard up until 1966 East of Suez.
After 1966 the focus has to shift to NATO for both political and budgetary reasons. But Eagle and Hermes could have survived with their Tigers into the 70s with Centaur and Bulwark taking over from Ocean and Theseus as Commando ships.
The AFVG/Mirage M is selected to replace the Tigers in 1970. The incoming Conservative government orders the Hermes sized anglo french carrier (PACV70) to enter service from 1979. The RN gets Queen Elizabeth and Eagle (Prince of Wales is renamed Eagle after the latter became the star of the BBCTV doc "Sailor" and is adopted by HM theQueen Mother). France gets Charles De Gaulle and Richelieu.
Queen Elizabeth and Hermes sail for the Falklands in 1982. QE has the new Tornado/Mirage M fighter/attacker while Hermes operates Tigers and Bucs. Hermes and her airgroup had been sold to Australia as HMS Australia. Canberra agrees to let the RN keep her for the duration. But Eagle is completed at breakneck speed. Hermes returns to Portsmouth in the Summer to be refurbished for the RAN with her Tigers and Bucs. The Tiger has had its second combat moment with the RN (the first was in the F East in 1963 against Indonesian Migs and Badgers)

I would generally concur on the overall flow of things here... even if the RN kept the centaurs conventional eventually Albion and Bulwark go the commando route. I had not thought about new carriers being possible
 

Archibald

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If you look at my posts elsewhere you will see that the 1956-57 iteration of the Medium Fleet Carrier could have blended very well with the French PA54 PA55 PA58/59 - that is, Clemenceau Foch and Verdun. A 42000 tons compromise would nail it.

Foch and Clem' carriers actually borrowed Eagle and Ark BS-5A catapults - the short, 46 m variant.
The 61 m variant did not fit Foch and Clem. PA58 however at 45000 tons could handle it.

This would greatly help French Crusaders later on...
 

Archibald

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I exactly mean, this very one

(copied from this book
)

1588263343018.png

The above is the exact moment when *French and British carriers* should have been happened.

PA58 "Verdun" was 45 000 tons (as per above)

PA59 was closer from Foch and Clemenceau to try and reduce cost - so 35 000 tons, again - as per above.

With the full length BS-5 catapults, and the Suez crisis, and Arromanches being a Colossus, and the Aéronavale first jets (SNCASE Aquilons) being licence-build Sea Venoms...



 
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bobtdwarf

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I exactly mean, this very one

(copied from this book
)

View attachment 631862

The above is the exact moment when French and British should have been happened.

PA58 "Verdun" was 45 000 tons (as per above)

PA59 was closer from Foch and Clemenceau to try and reduce cost - so 35 000 tons, again - as per above.

With the full length BS-5 catapults, and the Suez crisis, and Arromanches being a Colossus, and the Aéronavale first jets (SNCASE Aquilons) being licence-build Sea Venoms...





Yup.. this is what lead me down the path of my proposed carrier plan vis a vis the Implacable's and Indomitable that I detailed in the other thread...

I do like the PA58
 

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posted these caps on another site, posting here as well
 

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bobtdwarf

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the last two.

Fun bits in this is that they actually got the navy to seriously reconsider....
 

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Archibald

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The two big advantages of this alt- Super Tiger, over the Crusader, are
- shorter fuselage, no need for V.I wing, because no J57 - it went straight from J65 to J79
- much larger nose for larger radar dishes, since the intake(s) are far away

Just thought about something... if that alt S.T is so good, maybe Vought will see the writting on the wall. Making Crusader III a very different beast.
Indeed, instead of competing with the Phantom with a big J75 - maybe Vought could instead get a J79 Crusader ? and where it gets even more funny, there is a dark horse coming very fast: that other fantastic flying machine that was the F-5D Skylancer. Maybe early successes of the "Alt Super Tiger" will motivate Douglas to dust off this one, too ?

Skylancer, Super Tiger and J79 Crusader (V-1000 anybody ?) - this is true "naval fighter porn".

when you think about it, it is a shame none of the three could get a short production run, if only to extend those old Essex OR (even better) for the two crippled WWII veterans hold in reserve - USS Franklin and USS Bunker hill.
 

bobtdwarf

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The two big advantages of this alt- Super Tiger, over the Crusader, are
- shorter fuselage, no need for V.I wing, because no J57 - it went straight from J65 to J79
- much larger nose for larger radar dishes, since the intake(s) are far away

Just thought about something... if that alt S.T is so good, maybe Vought will see the writting on the wall. Making Crusader III a very different beast.
Indeed, instead of competing with the Phantom with a big J75 - maybe Vought could instead get a J79 Crusader ? and where it gets even more funny, there is a dark horse coming very fast: that other fantastic flying machine that was the F-5D Skylancer. Maybe early successes of the "Alt Super Tiger" will motivate Douglas to dust off this one, too ?

Skylancer, Super Tiger and J79 Crusader (V-1000 anybody ?) - this is true "naval fighter porn".

when you think about it, it is a shame none of the three could get a short production run, if only to extend those old Essex OR (even better) for the two crippled WWII veterans hold in reserve - USS Franklin and USS Bunker hill.


yeah it gets to be interesting... Tiger fitted with AI.23 and enough room to fit CW illuminators... the J-79 crusader would be like an A-7 with area ruling.

I keep forgetting that the Marines flew F-8's.. replace all of those squadrons with AltF-11 and it will last in US service until 90's
 
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Archibald

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I keep forgetting that the Marines flew F-8's.. replace all of those squadrons with AltF-11 and it will last in US service until 90's

that TL reminds us how "lucky" was LWF (F-16 and later F-18) were OTL. Indeed Boyd and his Fighter mafia could start from a blank sheet of paper (using the F15 engine), since
- F-104 was too old, had bad rep, and was not very agile
- Vought had stopped the Crusader production line with the French birds in 1964 and moved to the A-7
- the F-5 was underpowered and for export only
- Phantom was too big

Crucially, there was no LWF with a J79 (early 60's) and ready to take a TF41 by 1968. In a nutshell: a US Viggen or Mirage F1.

ITTL if the Alt Super Tiger hangs on with a J79 or (worse) a TF41 then the LWF path is partially blocked.

Vought biggest mistake was they never build a J79 Crusader. They missed that bus in 1956, 1960, 1965 - and the V-1000 come too late and lost to the F-5E.

Northrop made a similar mistake moving toward the P.530 Cobra with the J101. Had they made a "proto F-20" with a J79 or TF41... those engines of course were far bigger and thirsty than the F404.

Lockheed also tried with the CL-1200 but once again picked the wrong engine - TF33.

Seriously, folks: early LWF, 1958-59, screams for J79 later upgraded to TF41.

I think the key of all this is that the F-104 was that J79 bird, and then the F-5 come and swept the unexpensive fighter market. In the end the two sold 2200*2 copies, total 4400 aircraft. It is not a coincidence the F-16 sold similar numbers... and this remains the F-35 target.

It would make for an interesting TL to have an aircraft able to crush both F-104G and F-5 on export markets, taking a J79 first and then a TF41.
 

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An Avon Tiger with a lower wing loading and BLC sounds outstanding, almost like a supersonic A-4?

Does anyone know why the middle wing pylons were stressed to 3500 pounds? Ferry tanks?

Super-Tiger-98J5.jpg
 

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An Avon Tiger with a lower wing loading and BLC sounds outstanding, almost like a supersonic A-4?

Does anyone know why the middle wing pylons were stressed to 3500 pounds? Ferry tanks?

View attachment 656888
Yup... I think the inner pylon was a "wet" one as well but might be confusing it with the A-7 in my mind. The mid pylon was for big ferry tanks and nuclear weapons.
 

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not to bump this but need to add this data.. http://www.teamgivan.com/underblog/f11f. the per unit cost of the Tiger is under a million, by way of comparison the F-8 per unit was 1.2 million and F-4 over 2

adding some 98L data found here in another thread about Grumman 110 project... notes the wing area as 300 square feet at the correct wingspan. The top view indicates a place on the wing where you could fold it and take her down to about 18 feet across
 

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bobtdwarf

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A return to the hobby horse but using the as built F-11 and SuperTiger

The alternate version I previously presented was based in part on my bias toward NOT trusting the amount of folded wing depicted in the illustrations for the Tiger modified for the AN-1 project.

Though I trusted the Buccaneer and Cougar with similar amount of folded wing span because they were thicker wings which I equated with being "stronger"... while not taking into account that that also made them heavier so proportionally it would be a wash most likely. In the case of the F9F-8 if it could pull greater G's using a wing built using a weaker construction method than the F-11 while also being thinner than the -6 version then I have no valid reason to distrust it.

This has a major impact on my reasoning to position the Tiger as a fallback for the SR.177. The primary role for which was a high altitude interceptor with a secondary attack role.. SuperTiger had a minimum time to 65,000 feet of 9.5 minutes, not as high, nor as fast as the SR with the rocket motor; but the rocket was out in what the RN was going to get if it was built. So ST still gets up high and pretty fast with a higher service ceiling than the SeaVixen....


This is the air group for Victorious in 1963 as projected in October 1956

8 SR.177

8 Buccaneer

10 Sea Vixen

8 ASW helicopters

4 Gannet AEW

2 SAR helicopters


40 Total


This is the air group for Eagle in 1963 as projected in October 1956

12 SR.177

12 Buccaneer

10 Sea Vixen

8 Gannet ASW or ASW helicopters

6 Gannet AEW

2 SAR helicopters


50 total

These are the two RN carriers that had fueling facilities for the SR.177 built into them... let me look at the impact of the as built AN-1 Tiger/SuperTiger would have as a replacement for the SR.177, and possibly overall. The above air groups include the safety gap between aircraft and hangar.

SR.177, Buccaneer and SeaVixen are all longer than even the possible two seat ST but not by so much that I really have to assess impact. Width though?

AN-1 modified is a 10 foot folded span.

The RN version of the SR.177 has a folded span of 18 feet... 8x8= 64 feet. One foot between aircraft gives you room for five more aircraft on the Victorious if that is all you do. They can replace SeaVixen 2-1 without the need to factor in additional room for safety gap and Buccaneer 2-1 with figuring in additional safety gap space. So a total air group replacement would look like this:

16 in place of Bucc's. 64 feet -8 feet for safety= 56 feet... need to keep track of this..
20 in place of SV
13 in place of SR with safety space taken into account

A total of 49 combat jets...63 total aircraft with Gannet's and helicopters. Call it 48 and 62 because I like even numbers.

Another thing to factor in here, though tangentially related, is that we often talk about the materiel state of RN carriers and much of that is based on the poor quality of war time steel used in construction... Victorious was about 2 years into her construction at the start of WW2; so what was left of the original Victorious after her reconstruction would have been excellent quality pre war steel... she probably came out of the barn with a 25-30 year hull life in '58.

Lets swap four SeaVixen's for Buccaneers: Bucc's fold to 20 feet, SV to 23, 4x3= 12 feet so you gain one ST in that swap for a total of 26.. a total air wing of 52 on Victorious!

Eagle was in better shape than Ark Royal, but both were built with wartime steel in their deep down so prone to rot, but for a time she could be a monster! Swapping SR for ST gives 96 feet of available space. Swapping out the SV's for ST gives you 40 plus 12 Bucc's... or 20 Bucc's and 24 ST's easy.

EDIT: Even if we go with the 98L with an 18 foot folded span(which makes me more comfortable) that leaves you a slightly better than 1-1 replacement for SV, for every 10 SV you get 50 feet (23-18=5), enough for 2 98L's and some spare space. On Victorious swap 4 SV's for Bucc's to give you 12, swap the remaining SV's for 98L's gives you 42 feet: So 16 98L's and 12 Bucc's.
 
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