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An alternate F-11 Tiger

bobtdwarf

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Although the Sverdlov cruisers alarmed the RN sufficiently for it to develop Buccaneer and get it into service on Victorious, Hermes, Eagle and Ark (Green Cheese was not so lucky) the main work of RN carriers in general war was seen as being ASW.
The focus was on getting whatever could be got into service.
Reinforcing Singapore and providing fighter cover with their Tigers would have been the main impetus for using Bulwark and Albion as well as Centaur and Hermes as fixed wing carriers. With Victorious, Eagle and Ark they would have worked hard up until 1966 East of Suez.
After 1966 the focus has to shift to NATO for both political and budgetary reasons. But Eagle and Hermes could have survived with their Tigers into the 70s with Centaur and Bulwark taking over from Ocean and Theseus as Commando ships.
The AFVG/Mirage M is selected to replace the Tigers in 1970. The incoming Conservative government orders the Hermes sized anglo french carrier (PACV70) to enter service from 1979. The RN gets Queen Elizabeth and Eagle (Prince of Wales is renamed Eagle after the latter became the star of the BBCTV doc "Sailor" and is adopted by HM theQueen Mother). France gets Charles De Gaulle and Richelieu.
Queen Elizabeth and Hermes sail for the Falklands in 1982. QE has the new Tornado/Mirage M fighter/attacker while Hermes operates Tigers and Bucs. Hermes and her airgroup had been sold to Australia as HMS Australia. Canberra agrees to let the RN keep her for the duration. But Eagle is completed at breakneck speed. Hermes returns to Portsmouth in the Summer to be refurbished for the RAN with her Tigers and Bucs. The Tiger has had its second combat moment with the RN (the first was in the F East in 1963 against Indonesian Migs and Badgers)
I would generally concur on the overall flow of things here... even if the RN kept the centaurs conventional eventually Albion and Bulwark go the commando route. I had not thought about new carriers being possible
 

Archibald

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If you look at my posts elsewhere you will see that the 1956-57 iteration of the Medium Fleet Carrier could have blended very well with the French PA54 PA55 PA58/59 - that is, Clemenceau Foch and Verdun. A 42000 tons compromise would nail it.

Foch and Clem' carriers actually borrowed Eagle and Ark BS-5A catapults - the short, 46 m variant.
The 61 m variant did not fit Foch and Clem. PA58 however at 45000 tons could handle it.

This would greatly help French Crusaders later on...
 

Archibald

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I exactly mean, this very one

(copied from this book
)

1588263343018.png

The above is the exact moment when *French and British carriers* should have been happened.

PA58 "Verdun" was 45 000 tons (as per above)

PA59 was closer from Foch and Clemenceau to try and reduce cost - so 35 000 tons, again - as per above.

With the full length BS-5 catapults, and the Suez crisis, and Arromanches being a Colossus, and the Aéronavale first jets (SNCASE Aquilons) being licence-build Sea Venoms...



 
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bobtdwarf

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I exactly mean, this very one

(copied from this book
)

View attachment 631862

The above is the exact moment when French and British should have been happened.

PA58 "Verdun" was 45 000 tons (as per above)

PA59 was closer from Foch and Clemenceau to try and reduce cost - so 35 000 tons, again - as per above.

With the full length BS-5 catapults, and the Suez crisis, and Arromanches being a Colossus, and the Aéronavale first jets (SNCASE Aquilons) being licence-build Sea Venoms...




Yup.. this is what lead me down the path of my proposed carrier plan vis a vis the Implacable's and Indomitable that I detailed in the other thread...

I do like the PA58
 

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Archibald

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The two big advantages of this alt- Super Tiger, over the Crusader, are
- shorter fuselage, no need for V.I wing, because no J57 - it went straight from J65 to J79
- much larger nose for larger radar dishes, since the intake(s) are far away

Just thought about something... if that alt S.T is so good, maybe Vought will see the writting on the wall. Making Crusader III a very different beast.
Indeed, instead of competing with the Phantom with a big J75 - maybe Vought could instead get a J79 Crusader ? and where it gets even more funny, there is a dark horse coming very fast: that other fantastic flying machine that was the F-5D Skylancer. Maybe early successes of the "Alt Super Tiger" will motivate Douglas to dust off this one, too ?

Skylancer, Super Tiger and J79 Crusader (V-1000 anybody ?) - this is true "naval fighter porn".

when you think about it, it is a shame none of the three could get a short production run, if only to extend those old Essex OR (even better) for the two crippled WWII veterans hold in reserve - USS Franklin and USS Bunker hill.
 

bobtdwarf

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The two big advantages of this alt- Super Tiger, over the Crusader, are
- shorter fuselage, no need for V.I wing, because no J57 - it went straight from J65 to J79
- much larger nose for larger radar dishes, since the intake(s) are far away

Just thought about something... if that alt S.T is so good, maybe Vought will see the writting on the wall. Making Crusader III a very different beast.
Indeed, instead of competing with the Phantom with a big J75 - maybe Vought could instead get a J79 Crusader ? and where it gets even more funny, there is a dark horse coming very fast: that other fantastic flying machine that was the F-5D Skylancer. Maybe early successes of the "Alt Super Tiger" will motivate Douglas to dust off this one, too ?

Skylancer, Super Tiger and J79 Crusader (V-1000 anybody ?) - this is true "naval fighter porn".

when you think about it, it is a shame none of the three could get a short production run, if only to extend those old Essex OR (even better) for the two crippled WWII veterans hold in reserve - USS Franklin and USS Bunker hill.

yeah it gets to be interesting... Tiger fitted with AI.23 and enough room to fit CW illuminators... the J-79 crusader would be like an A-7 with area ruling.

I keep forgetting that the Marines flew F-8's.. replace all of those squadrons with AltF-11 and it will last in US service until 90's
 
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Archibald

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I keep forgetting that the Marines flew F-8's.. replace all of those squadrons with AltF-11 and it will last in US service until 90's
that TL reminds us how "lucky" was LWF (F-16 and later F-18) were OTL. Indeed Boyd and his Fighter mafia could start from a blank sheet of paper (using the F15 engine), since
- F-104 was too old, had bad rep, and was not very agile
- Vought had stopped the Crusader production line with the French birds in 1964 and moved to the A-7
- the F-5 was underpowered and for export only
- Phantom was too big

Crucially, there was no LWF with a J79 (early 60's) and ready to take a TF41 by 1968. In a nutshell: a US Viggen or Mirage F1.

ITTL if the Alt Super Tiger hangs on with a J79 or (worse) a TF41 then the LWF path is partially blocked.

Vought biggest mistake was they never build a J79 Crusader. They missed that bus in 1956, 1960, 1965 - and the V-1000 come too late and lost to the F-5E.

Northrop made a similar mistake moving toward the P.530 Cobra with the J101. Had they made a "proto F-20" with a J79 or TF41... those engines of course were far bigger and thirsty than the F404.

Lockheed also tried with the CL-1200 but once again picked the wrong engine - TF33.

Seriously, folks: early LWF, 1958-59, screams for J79 later upgraded to TF41.

I think the key of all this is that the F-104 was that J79 bird, and then the F-5 come and swept the unexpensive fighter market. In the end the two sold 2200*2 copies, total 4400 aircraft. It is not a coincidence the F-16 sold similar numbers... and this remains the F-35 target.

It would make for an interesting TL to have an aircraft able to crush both F-104G and F-5 on export markets, taking a J79 first and then a TF41.
 
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