Aircraft development in the world were Germany won WW1.

[Michel Van]

I working on Timeline were Germany win WW1
How would affect this Aircraft development ?

Some Background Information on what is Different in this Timeline
USA remain neutral in WW1 except they went almost armed conflict with Great Britain do Sea Blockade
USSR establish in 1917 with June Bolshevik Revolution
France had military putsch against Clemenceau government. replace him with Joseph Caillaux.
Irland and India has uprise thanks German weapon delivery.
The Ottoman Empire and Austria-Hungary collapse, A-H germans parts are absorb by German Empire.

Back to Aircraft productions:
One of obvious changes is no Versailler Treaty against Germany, means no exodus of Fokker or Dornier to foreign countries.
But for French under Potsdamer Treaty, will have limitation on there Military aircraft production.

Also how would affect end of war, the German Aircraft manufactures ?
would Siemens and others continue to build Aircraft, since the military demands to ooze away ?
Allot of running programs like gigantic Bombers would stoped also in 1918,
Some completed Bomber Prototype would tested to see it they worked, later in 1920 scrap, if they not crashed during test flights.
what complicated mattes for Junkers to find investors for his gigantic airliner proposals of 1920s and 1930s.

I guess that Zeppelins still are build in Germany after the War, but how they evolved dependent on two events,
If USA are willing to sell Helium to German Empire and Hindenburg Disaster.

 

[uk 75]

Michel Are you thinking of a Jour J style scenario?

Technology is always driven by the likely opponents:

Does Russia develop along the same lines as in our reality? If so, its technology would be unable to draw on German experience as it did in real life.

Does the USA still face an emerging threat from Japan, or is it more concerned with keeping Germany and Britain out of the Americas?

France presumably is less innovative than in real life? Maginot Line etc?

Civil developments like in the real 20s might have accelerated if Germany had ok relations with USA

 

[Michel Van]

you thinking of a Jour J style scenario?

Hell no, allot of those scenarios are to far fetch and illogical.

Does Russia develop along the same lines as in our reality?

Until 1941 under a Stalin Analog. then they make mistake to attack German Empire.

Does the USA still face an emerging threat from Japan

Yes, let me say like that, Japan profit from France ls the looser of WW1 and make fatale mistake to under estimate China, USA, Germany and Britain.
note German empire got in 1942 Aircraft carriers and they have rendezvous with US Navy on way to Midway...

France presumably is less innovative than in real life? Maginot Line etc?

Do Potsdamer Treaty no Maginot line and a DMZ at long Belgium German Swiss border
But the ruling french Communist get innovative to circumvent Potsdamer Treaty and have there revenge for WW1 and 1870
Like building rockets, a V1 analog and move Aircraft factory to secret location in Algeria and USSR.

 

[uk 75]

I was thinking more of the artwork from Jour J (we have nothing like this in UK) rather than the odd stories.
I would leave Lenin in charge of the USSR (he would have been very bit as bad as Stalin).
Japan's invasion of China in 1931 was arguably the start of WW2. Will this happen in your AR.
One scenario for a postwar Germany in 1919 which I think is in a 1990s role play series has Germany as an authoritarian but technologically advanced country which has most in common with the rising USA. It was in a Role Playing Series which had two volumes on alternate realities. Tesla etc
Britain might have turned inward faced with rising dissent in the British Empire (Governments unwilling to clamp down on Gandhi after Amristar. Attlee takes over from Baldwin in 1938 instead of Chamberlain.

 

[Michel Van]

Thanks for suggestions, UK75
But i have already roadmap for all mayor event in TL like Second Great War and wen and why
On Britain, There will go another path in 1926 thanks Oswald Mosley (not fascism way)
and Stanley Baldwin meet his fate after King Edward VIII was injured after Assassination Attempt by Jerome Bannigan

The German Empire will remain a Democratic Federal State ruled by elected government under a Emperor.
with all it benefits and flaws
On technologically advanced country, Germany not will have braindrain of OTL Third Reich in 1930s.
Because No Hitler or NSDAP, neither persecution of the Jews and no Holocaust !

This will have serious impact on USA post war technological development, special in Aerospace or nuclear tech.

 

[pathology_doc]

I think your US and French starting premises are EXTREMELY unlikely to the point of being fanciful.

There is no way India will turn on Britain, nor will Germany be able to supply enough weapons to it.

Ireland is an annoyance that can be swatted down with ease.

The US will get to where it got even without German knowledge. If there is no Second World War and no wholesale looting of Germany by the Russians, the Russians won't get the German tech either.

 

[Michel Van]

I think your US and French starting premises are EXTREMELY unlikely to the point of being fanciful.

There is no way India will turn on Britain, nor will Germany be able to supply enough weapons to it.

Ireland is an annoyance that can be swatted down with ease.

The US will get to where it got even without German knowledge. If there is no Second World War and no wholesale looting of Germany by the Russians, the Russians won't get the German tech either.

I forgott here the TL https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/kaiserreich-a-tl.411319/

To the "Point of Difference"
On US stay neutral.
1912 Theodore Roosevelt Assassination by John Flammang Schrank
1914 Marco „Midas“ Polis successful establish „Midaspolis“ with Shipping to Neutral Netherlands and Sweden
Were goods are smuggled to German Empire, the Navy got there instruction on what Ship to use a torpedo.
1915 the German Submarine U-20 is to successful in patrol and has to return earlier to there Base, 4 hour later the the RMS Lusitania past by unharmed
The Ship was required by British Navy as Troop-ship to replace one at Gallipoli campaign, what was torpedo by German submarines.
The Zimmerman Telegram was intercepted by Secretary of State Gottlieb von Jagow before it was send.
The Irish uprise (thanks German help) let to Irish Americans to join actively the Irish Ógaligh na hÉirann, what let to tension with Great Britain.
As Royal Navy intercept US freighters, with one is accidental shoot on (the Bedford Incident) now is Capitol Hill Hostile with Britain.

On French
The Neville Offensive is more disastrous as OTL, what let to rebellion under french soldiers.
Were Commander-in-Chief Petain and Charles „The Butcher“ Mangin are Assassinated by soldiers.
It let to fall of french Government Ribot and Georges Clémenceau rule with hard hand make matter worst until the Military Putsch in December 1917

Britain
The Irish uprise with weapon delivery by Germany and Americans volunteers turn Irland into war zone.
The India uprise i write about is actually the Punjab region with weapon delivery by Germany (US Weapons) what let more tension with USA.
The British government redirect troops from Canada to Irland and ANZAC to India for riot control.

German Empire
There Strumtruppen use the pump action shotgun build by Fabrique National d’ Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Kingdom of Belgium.
General marshal Paul von Hindenburg dies in car accident near Belgium town of Spa.
Generalmajor Max Hoffmann rise to second in command to support Ludendorff
Thanks to earlier Bolshevik Revolution in June 1917, the German army is able to start Operation George Autumn 1917
There successful conquest of north west France, but its a Pyrrhic victory, the war parties are exhaust and there empires on edge of total Collapse...

 

[RanulfC]

On technologically advanced country, Germany not will have braindrain of OTL Third Reich in 1930s.
Because No Hitler or NSDAP, neither persecution of the Jews and no Holocaust !

This will have serious impact on USA post war technological development, special in Aerospace or nuclear tech.

While the general 'brain-drain' will not happen the US still gets some good brains simply because they came to teach

And it depends on how much money/motivation everyone has for the development of nuclear power and weapons. The US had a pretty low-key but intensive nuclear power development program in the Navy in the late 30s with a uranium 'bomb' design pretty well understood if lacking the materials to make either. And aerospace wise let me point out that the biggest contribution Von Braun and company made to the US effort was NOT 'techinical' in nature but socially in popularizing the idea of space travel and rocket flight. NACA was considered one of the leading aeronautical development agencies in the world through the 20s and 30s ranking right up with European works. In the 40s and 50s the US's main issue was the war and then Truman's lack of spending which curtailed most advanced aerospace work till the early 50s. (Keep in mind Von Braun and company had dismissed the idea of "balloon tank" rockets till they actually took a sledg hammer to the prototype Atlas and were suitably impressed!)

As to WWI Wilson was neutral with a leaning towards the English until it became clear that the only way to significantly participate in the post-war peace was to get involved in the fighting. (It'd be great if he wasn't President of course ) Having all sides take his peace treaty negotiations seriously would go a long way towards keeping him out of the war.

Uhm, having a "German" (Bavarian) murder a favorite US President isn't going to make the US happy with the Germans? I'm assuming you want Taft in place for the war? It might be a lot better if the Republican's don't split in the first place. Maybe have Roosevelt killed while on safari in 1910? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt#Africa_and_Europe_(1909–1910))
(Having him die under suspscios circumstances in the Belgian Congo might be interesting )

Taft taking a "strict neutrality with a heart" (meaning considering humanitarian trade such as food and medical supplies not being interdicted which the British and French won't like) would cause a lot of heart-ache between Britain/France and the US. Why would the Soviet's attack a German Empire? They'd only do so if they felt they had an overwhelming advantage or the Empire was significantly distracted elsewhere. Otherwise they'd stay on the defensive and try to tie themselves into the Empire's economy to disauade the Empire from attacking them. (Remember the ideaoloty says the Capitlists will always attack and destroy each other given half a chance)

As for aircraft well I'd see a better and more prosecuted development of the Junkers J1/2 metal monoplane fighter

Junkers J 1 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Junkers J 2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As well as the first armored trench (ground attack) straffer the J.I.

Junkers J.I - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Ursinus Retracting Float Seaplane was a very interesting design

Arcana from the Great War

(Have to admit I'm using this, the J1/2 and a steam power plant for an idea of mine )

Civil avaiation will immediatly post-war be a mix of converted Zepplin's and bombers as passenger aircraft like OTL. But Germany had a couple of advanced passenger aircraft ready right after the war OTL but were denied due to the treaty.

Randy

 

[riggerrob]

"

I working on Timeline were Germany win WW1
How would affect this Aircraft development?
I guess that Zeppelins still are build in Germany after the War, but how they evolved dependent on two events,
If USA are willing to sell Helium to German Empire and Hindenburg Disaster.

"

Zeppelins would still be limited to hydrogen lifting gas because the supply of helium is limited and it is a by-product of the petroleum industry. Back then the USA was by far the largest exporter of petroleum.
The Hindenberg was destroyed by static electricity. Better attention to detail and repairs could have prevented that disaster.
Another possible POD is that tobacco becomes un-fashionable around aircraft.

On the subject of Russian technological development ... Russia produced some very smart engineers, but they were limited by the Russian economy. A Russia that industrialized more rapidly would need far more long-range airplanes.
By liberalization, I mean liberalization for a few noblemen and a few captains of industry. Factory workers and peasants would still toil hard all their lives without ever learning how to read, much less visit other parts of the Russian Empire. A smart Tzar would allow a few nobles and capitalists to profit as long as they shared profits with the Romanov Dynasty.

 

[Michel Van]

Thanks for the Reply riggerrob and Randy

on Randy remarks
jep USA will face a German Airforce with advance Jetfighters, but they will start to D&R to catch up
And they will goes unconventional ways to Meet German challenge fast.
This Forum is full of magnificent US proposal what i can use for my TL

Uhm, having a "German" (Bavarian) murder a favorite US President isn't going to make the US happy with the Germans? I'm assuming you want Taft in place for the war? It might be a lot better if the Republican's don't split in the first place. Maybe have Roosevelt killed while on safari in 1910? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt#Africa_and_Europe_(1909–1910))
(Having him die under suspscios circumstances in the Belgian Congo might be interesting )

nice Idea, Taft had no chance to get POTUS since Woodrow Wilson won with electoral vote with 435 against 96 vote Taft got in TL.


on riggerrob remarks
Good info about Helium, the Germans plans was to make dual hull internal filled with Hydrogen, external hull filled with Helium.
But had Zeppelin company had build the Hindenburg using this idea is another matter
To save cost the Zeppelin Company use a color coating made from cellulose nitrate and mixture of Aluminum with iron oxide powder
Mythbuster Show how devastated this mixture burns like Termite...

In German Empire the Zepplines were used mostly by German Navy and airliners
in 1930s the Navy would switch on Seaplanes and Long range anti-shipping/maritime patrol bomber like FW-200 Kondor and FW-300 Andenkondor
A Hindenburg Disaster would only accelerate this development.

 

[Sineva]

Thanks for the Reply riggerrob and Randy

on Randy remarks
jep USA will face a German Airforce with advance Jetfighters, but they will start to D&R to catch up
And they will goes unconventional ways to Meet German challenge fast.
This Forum is full of magnificent US proposal what i can use for my TL

Uhm, having a "German" (Bavarian) murder a favorite US President isn't going to make the US happy with the Germans? I'm assuming you want Taft in place for the war? It might be a lot better if the Republican's don't split in the first place. Maybe have Roosevelt killed while on safari in 1910? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt#Africa_and_Europe_(1909–1910))
(Having him die under suspscios circumstances in the Belgian Congo might be interesting )

nice Idea, Taft had no chance to get POTUS since Woodrow Wilson won with electoral vote with 435 against 96 vote Taft got in TL.


on riggerrob remarks
Good info about Helium, the Germans plans was to make dual hull internal filled with Hydrogen, external hull filled with Helium.
But had Zeppelin company had build the Hindenburg using this idea is another matter
To save cost the Zeppelin Company use a color coating made from cellulose nitrate and mixture of Aluminum with iron oxide powder
Mythbuster Show how devastated this mixture burns like Termite...

In German Empire the Zepplines were used mostly by German Navy and airliners
in 1930s the Navy would switch on Seaplanes and Long range anti-shipping/maritime patrol bomber like FW-200 Kondor and FW-300 Andenkondor
A Hindenburg Disaster would only accelerate this development.

The german navy had already started work on naval R planes,both float plane and flying boat designs,during the latter part of the war to match the army airforce programs,tho hardly any of these naval R-planes actually made it into service.One that did was the zeppelin-lindau RS-III,this and its successor the RS-IV were designed bu Claude Dornier who went on to design numerous flying boats including the massive Do X.The germans were very far advanced when it came to large multi engined bomber designs and were already starting to make the transition to large metal monoplane designs when the war ended.I`d recommend tracking down a copy of the excellent book The German Giants,this does a great job of telling the various stories behind the german ww1 R-plane program.The scale of the program was pretty incredible and even featured attempts at "stealth" bombers with reduced optical visibility.
Ironically the most advanced zeppelins in the post ww1 era were the ones built in the us by the goodyear-zeppelin company as the akron and the macon.These had been designed from the outset to use helium as their lift gas,which at the time was produced at only one site in the us as a by product of natural gas extraction,it was considered as a strategic resource and was hideously expensive so even the us navy only had enough gas to keep one rigid aloft at one time.The other clever little feature of these rigids was the ability to carry small fighter/scout planes to use for reconnaissance to extend the rigids range.They rigids also had internal engine rooms,swiveling props and engine exhaust water recovery systems for ballast so as to avoid valving expensive helium gas.Sadly both the akron and macon were lost in disasters.

 

[RanulfC]

Zeppelins would still be limited to hydrogen lifting gas because the supply of helium is limited and it is a by-product of the petroleum industry. Back then the USA was by far the largest exporter of petroleum.
The Hindenberg was destroyed by static electricity. Better attention to detail and repairs could have prevented that disaster.
Another possible POD is that tobacco becomes un-fashionable around aircraft.

Helium was arguably part of the "problem" with US LTA development, it gave a false sense of security with the idea you didn't have to worry about bursting into flames. The Germans on the other hand were a lot more conservative and cautious BECAUSE they were flying around in hydrogen filled airships. Hindenburg was due to a number of factors few of which the crew could have done anything about really. And you're asking a LOT with the smoking thing as it was socially on the rise at the time (And didn't have anything to do with any of the hydrogen airship accidents )

[quot]On the subject of Russian technological development ... Russia produced some very smart engineers, but they were limited by the Russian economy. A Russia that industrialized more rapidly would need far more long-range airplanes.
By liberalization, I mean liberalization for a few noblemen and a few captains of industry. Factory workers and peasants would still toil hard all their lives without ever learning how to read, much less visit other parts of the Russian Empire. A smart Tzar would allow a few nobles and capitalists to profit as long as they shared profits with the Romanov Dynasty.[/QUOTE]

A 'smart' Tzar would be a key as it was often the matter of whim what got done and what didn't.

Randy

 

[RanulfC]

Thanks for the Reply riggerrob and Randy

on Randy remarks
jep USA will face a German Airforce with advance Jetfighters, but they will start to D&R to catch up
And they will goes unconventional ways to Meet German challenge fast.
This Forum is full of magnificent US proposal what i can use for my TL

Interesting

nice Idea, Taft had no chance to get POTUS since Woodrow Wilson won with electoral vote with 435 against 96 vote Taft got in TL.

There was a low voter turn out due to discust with the Republican split which wouldn't have happened, (as badly or as publicly) without Roosevelt around. So it's still Wilson then? The thing was he was all about leaving a "lasting legacy" mark on international politics and while orginally opposed to entering the war he was heavily leaning in doing so by 1916 since no one was listening to his attempts at brokering a peace. As in other things in life if you don't play the game, you don't get to sit at the table with the Big Boys and Wilson was determined to do just that. Even with the ability to get "humanitarian" supplies to Germany through neutral ports as things run down he'll choose a side he thinks will win and go all in to be a part of the peace talks. (He was not prepared for the reality of doing so and his near-fatal bout of the Spanish Flu did nothing to help him either) Taft I can see staying out of the war entirely but not so much Wilson so it will be interesting to read.

on riggerrob remarks
Good info about Helium, the Germans plans was to make dual hull internal filled with Hydrogen, external hull filled with Helium.

I understood it to be the gas-bags not the actual hull

But had Zeppelin company had build the Hindenburg using this idea is another matter

The Hindenburg was supposed to use helium originally but the US was balking at negotiations so they re-built it for hydrogen which was one of it's design issues. (Note the REASON the US was balking at selling helium was because we had very little until after WWII began and the infrastructure was finally expanded. During the 20s and 30s there was only enough helium to inflate ONE (1) of our airships at a time and every time we lost one we had to spend months re-building the supply. In fact even if the US had been actually interested in selling Germany helium we couldn't have done in on-time or within budget. As it was it was difficult at best for the US "helium industry" to meet domestic demands once Congress mandated ONLY helium in LTA vehicles as a law) I doubt they would have gone with any of the hybrid plans as the design constraints were too demanding and the 'benifits' fewer than one might think.

To save cost the Zeppelin Company use a color coating made from cellulose nitrate and mixture of Aluminum with iron oxide powder
Mythbuster Show how devastated this mixture burns like Termite...

Ya but it has to be ignited first which took a hydrogen fire And it was actually a pretty common aircraft cloth 'dope' at the time though only Airships used it in that quantity.

In German Empire the Zepplines were used mostly by German Navy and airliners

Ah but like in any nation what one service has the other tries to gain to keep 'even' with the REAL enemy

in 1930s the Navy would switch on Seaplanes and Long range anti-shipping/maritime patrol bomber like FW-200 Kondor and FW-300 Andenkondor
A Hindenburg Disaster would only accelerate this development.

Eh, not really as it was already clear that Airships only had limited utility in combat and aircraft technology was going to clearly eclipse it in most of its remaining roles pretty quickly. The thing with most European uses of LTA aviation was that once aircraft got to a certain point LTA vehicles no longer had a reason to be built. The US on the other hand while also lacking a rationale for airships still had a good number of reasons to retain and expand LTA development for non-rigid airships. The Great Depression coupled with early post-war disarmament and lowered research and development priorities is what really limited things.

Randy

 

[RanulfC]

The german navy had already started work on naval R planes,both float plane and flying boat designs,during the latter part of the war to match the army airforce programs,tho hardly any of these naval R-planes actually made it into service.One that did was the zeppelin-lindau RS-III,this and its successor the RS-IV were designed bu Claude Dornier who went on to design numerous flying boats including the massive Do X.The germans were very far advanced when it came to large multi engined bomber designs and were already starting to make the transition to large metal monoplane designs when the war ended.I`d recommend tracking down a copy of the excellent book The German Giants,this does a great job of telling the various stories behind the german ww1 R-plane program.The scale of the program was pretty incredible and even featured attempts at "stealth" bombers with reduced optical visibility.

Good points and a non-treaty-limited Germany will activly purse Trans-Atlantic travel more aggresivly as it was pretty much ONLY the OTL treaty that held them back till the Depression hit.

Ironically the most advanced zeppelins in the post ww1 era were the ones built in the us by the goodyear-zeppelin company as the akron and the macon.

And without the Versilles Treaty does the Zepplin company even team up with Goodyear at all in TTL? Not that I don't think Goodyear could do as well on its own mind you, (in fact they over-rode the more conservative Zepplin engineers on several issues) but it makes me wonder where post-war Imperial German LTA work would go? Keeping in mind they would have a good number of "war-surplus" Zepplins available which would not go to the Allies or be destroyed TTL I can see a pretty robust business of long distance air routes being serviced by these airships very early on.

On that same note I should point out that in that context there are several things that probably WON'T happen TTL, while others will be quite different. For example the US's first Airship "Shenandoah" is likely still built using erroneous data and design and the switch from hydrogen to helium for lift is still going to be a problem. (The additonal cell needed to compensate for the lower lift of helium was always a weak spot in the design along with the scarcity of the helium which mandated other design changes) Of course if you don't haver OTL's "Roma" disaster which was blamed on being hydrogen filled rather than the design flaws and operational issues, then it may be less likely you get the Congressional mandate and maybe US LTA isn't as limited so early on...

But ZR-2 isn't going to happen as per OTL since it was a 'war-reperation' so the US would have to outright 'buy' it from Germany which is questionable given the circumstances. Which probably means that whatever TTL's ZR2 is it probably won't have "Los Angleles" record. Which makes you wonder what TTL's US LTA experiance will be.

These had been designed from the outset to use helium as their lift gas,which at the time was produced at only one site in the us as a by product of natural gas extraction,it was considered as a strategic resource and was hideously expensive so even the us navy only had enough gas to keep one rigid aloft at one time.The other clever little feature of these rigids was the ability to carry small fighter/scout planes to use for reconnaissance to extend the rigids range.They rigids also had internal engine rooms,swiveling props and engine exhaust water recovery systems for ballast so as to avoid valving expensive helium gas. Sadly both the akron and macon were lost in disasters.

There were some pretty awsome advanced LTA-carrier airship designs in the works before the loss of Akron/Macon that would have been interesting but there were also plans for a US long-distance air service using helium airships which was impossible without a lot of money being spent to expand the helium extraction and storage system. That didn't happen OTL till WWII started but I have to wonder if seeing a rather successful Imperial German airship travel industry and less "war-experiance/fatiuge" in the US might not push Congress to fund that expansion earlier to support a US 'safer-using-helium' competitor? A lot of the inovations on Macon/Akron turned out to be less sound in operation than in theory the internal engines and swiviling props being one fo them it seems as future plans went back to external engines in dedicated engine pods/cars. (Don't get me wrong, the actual operations were extremely functional it was the complexity of the drive trains and loss of internal space that were the main issues) They could never get the water recovery system working properly but with more time and effort I'm sure it could be fixed but they also wanted to install a rainwater storage and handling system and/or atmopsheric water condenser system to try and keep up with the fuel usage. And as noted the lack of helium was always going to be a problem.

Still now that I think about it, that's probably something that would/does get overlooked in any timeline where Germany 'wins' or at least isn't crippled post-WWI. Especially if they manage to keep or re-gain their Africa and Pacific territory. They are in immediate possesion of both an heavier than air and lighter than air long distance transport system that they can get up and running in a very short order and while it's not perfect it is arguably better (and they have more experiance to draw from) than anyone else for a good long period.

Randy

 

[Michel Van]

Still now that I think about it, that's probably something that would/does get overlooked in any timeline where Germany 'wins' or at least isn't crippled post-WWI. Especially if they manage to keep or re-gain their Africa and Pacific territory. They are in immediate possesion of both an heavier than air and lighter than air long distance transport system that they can get up and running in a very short order and while it's not perfect it is arguably better (and they have more experiance to draw from) than anyone else for a good long period.

Yes Germany after WW1 establish a scale down Mittelafrika on cost of Belgium and France and Portugal
Same goes for French possession in Asia and Pacific, that is not occupy by Imperial Japan "in order to protect them" after WW1
Airships would still used als Airliner or better say as Aircruiser for tourists either to fly to Mittelafrika or Pacific destination or other cruise-ship destination.
One main reason why German Airship era ended after the Hindenburg Disaster was Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring order "No more airships".

Oh By the way What happen to him in TL ?

Obituary notice

Statt Der Besonderen Anzeige
Den Heldentod für das Vaterland Starb am
26 September in Himmel über La Bassée
unser innigstgeliebter Sohn

Oberleutnant Hermann Wilhelm Göring
Ritter des Eiserner Kreuzes II. Klasse

In tiefster Schmerze
Heinrich Ernst Göring Reichskommissar a.d.
Franziska Göring (geb. Tiefenbrunn)
Karl Ernst Göring, Albert Göring Olga Theresa Sophie und Paula Elizabeth, Rosa Göring

 

[martinbayer]

That would be Reichskommissar, not Reichskommesar.

 

[Michel Van]

corrected

 

[RanulfC]

Yes Germany after WW1 establish a scale down Mittelafrika on cost of Belgium and France and Portugal
Same goes for French possession in Asia and Pacific, that is not occupy by Imperial Japan "in order to protect them" after WW1
Airships would still used als Airliner or better say as Aircruiser for tourists either to fly to Mittelafrika or Pacific destination or other cruise-ship destination.

A question is how would German-Japanese relations develop after WWI? I can't see Japan actually keeping it's ex-German territory, I mean it would probably be a financial 'win' for Germany but that would include Germany's China consessions as well which were a major loss in trade with China. But Japan went all in with the Entente for the war effort and Germany while wanting to keep stable realations has to fully believe that Japan and Britian are solid allies and act accordingly. So rather than being ignored at the peace table like they were OTL they'd be forced to accept some pretty distasteful adjustments post-war. I'd like to think that post-war relations would be more cordial but I have my doubts since Germany will be just as euro-centric as the Allies were.

So the German's inherit Veitnam as well? Wonder how that works out. And the Congo? Ya, they may have not gotten the best out of those deals in the long run

I wonder if a willingness to work with the American's no developing a helium infrastructure wouldn't be something that Germany might look into? Granted the miltary use of Zepplins will always be limited but there's good portion of time there where it would make senes for transportation and supply to the far off corners of the Empire. If they can keep their economy intact and don't overdo the assumed war reperations from the allies, (does that happen TTL?) the Depression will likely have a lesser effect in Europe and Asia than OTL.

Randy

 

[Michel Van]

A question is how would German-Japanese relations develop after WWI? I can't see Japan actually keeping it's ex-German territory

Is very bad, as part of Entente Japan occupy German Asia territory, like Kiautschou in China and the Marshall Islands
Follow by occupation of French Indochina after WW1, before the Germans could send a Fleet with troops there.
Kiautschou was return in 1922 to German Empire

So the German's inherit Veitnam as well?

nope it's Japanese Empire who take it and try to keep it with Hard hand

For rest of interim period between WW1 and WW2 the Japanese and German (and USA) have issue about dominance in Asia and Pacific
This let to support of Republic of China by Germany and there allies Chiang Kai-shek who Graduate in The Preußische Kriegsakademie in Berlin, 1911
Then Chinese use German tactics and equipment against Japanese force in China
Then makes the Japanese Military the fatal underestimation that USA and Germany would not fight back after attack in 1941
Oh boy were there bad surprised as US battle Fleet and a German Taskforce arrived at Midway...
...the fast Battleship KAISER WILHELM II and the Aircraft Carrier HANS FLEMING and there support.

 

[Michel Van]

Back to Topic

The German Empire Navy and Army have there Aircraft and there prefer manufactors
There designation system change over time, special with the 1930s Reform in Military Aircraft because:

After new Crown prince Louis Ferdinand Prinz von Preußen took his duty for Military Aircraft division in 1933
he was in way "the Black Sheep" of Family, no military education, instead has degree on economics, spent several years in USA therefor.
until his Brother Wilhelm was expelled from Family by the Emperor, as the former Crown prince marry Dorothea von Salviati
Louis Ferdinand takes the duty to please his grandfather Wilhelm II. who consider him as weakling because no military education.

The Military has the luck that Louis Ferdinand von Preußen has the technical understanding and knowledge for new Task
Under Crown prince started needed Reforms and R&D projects for future of both German Air forces.
like Aerodynamic research, development of new aircraft engines and this new Jet-engine Heinkel is working on.
next to that development of new Aircraft weapons like Auto-cannon and experiment with rockets.
also use of studies like one of Abraham Wald about analysis and optimizations of aircraft armor.

The New designation system Luftstreikrafte in 1933/34
A - Ausbildung - unarmed aircraft used as training aircraft
B - Aufklärung - armed reconnaissance and training aircraft with two pilots
C - Abfangjäger - Interceptor
D - Jagdflugzeug - Fighter one pilot - one engine
E - Erdkampfflugzeug - Ground attack aircraft also as Bomber (Kskb Dive bomber like JU-87)
G - Großflugzeug - Multi engine aircraft medium cargo (GT) or Bomber (GB)
M - Mehrzweckflugzeug - Multi combat aircraft
N - Nachtbomber - aircraft adapted for Night bombing
R - Riesenflugzeug - Giant aircraft - RT cargo, RB Bomber.
S - Schlachtflugzeug - Heavy fighter mit two engines
T - Tanker - either for in flight refueling or fuel transport. (end of WW2)
V - Versuchsflugzeuge - Experimental and Prototypes

Example
Fokker D.XXI would be FoK-D.21
Focke-Wulf FW 190 is Fw-M5
Junkers Ju-87 is Ju-M4
Messerschmitt Me 109 would be Me-V1 (prototype for fighter Me-D1)
Junker Ju-52 is Ju-GT52

 

[Anderman]

Back to Topic

The German Empire Navy and Army have there Aircraft and there prefer manufactors
There designation system change over time, special with the 1930s Reform in Military Aircraft because:

After new Crown prince Louis Ferdinand Prinz von Preußen took his duty for Military Aircraft division in 1933
he was in way "the Black Sheep" of Family, no military education, instead has degree on economics, spent several years in USA therefor.
until his Brother Wilhelm was expelled from Family by the Emperor, as the former Crown prince marry Dorothea von Salviati
Louis Ferdinand takes the duty to please his grandfather Wilhelm II. who consider him as weakling because no military education.

The Military has the luck that Louis Ferdinand von Preußen has the technical understanding and knowledge for new Task
Under Crown prince started needed Reforms and R&D projects for future of both German Air forces.
like Aerodynamic research, development of new aircraft engines and this new Jet-engine Heinkel is working on.
next to that development of new Aircraft weapons like Auto-cannon and experiment with rockets.
also use of studies like one of Abraham Wald about analysis and optimizations of aircraft armor.

The New designation system Luftstreikrafte in 1933/34
A - Ausbildung - unarmed aircraft used as training aircraft
B - Aufklärung - armed reconnaissance and training aircraft with two pilots
C - Abfangjäger - Interceptor
D - Jagdflugzeug - Fighter one pilot - one engine
E - Erdkampfflugzeug - Ground attack aircraft also as Bomber (Kskb Dive bomber like JU-87)
G - Großflugzeug - Multi engine aircraft medium cargo (GT) or Bomber (GB)
M - Mehrzweckflugzeug - Multi combat aircraft
N - Nachtbomber - aircraft adapted for Night bombing
R - Riesenflugzeug - Giant aircraft - RT cargo, RB Bomber.
S - Schlachtflugzeug - Heavy fighter mit two engines
T - Tanker - either for in flight refueling or fuel transport. (end of WW2)
V - Versuchsflugzeuge - Experimental and Prototypes

Example
Fokker D.XXI would be FoK-D.21
Focke-Wulf FW 190 is Fw-M5
Junkers Ju-87 is Ju-M4
Messerschmitt Me 109 would be Me-V1 (prototype for fighter Me-D1)
Junker Ju-52 is Ju-GT52

As an alternative you could use

L for Lehrflugzeug Trainer

freeing A for Aufklärung

J for Jagdflugzeug/Jagdbomber

and i would S Schlachtflugzeug for the ground attac aircraft like in Rl.

 

[Michel Van]

So a more Literate acronym ?

A - Aufklärung - armed reconnaissance and training aircraft with two pilots
B - Bomber - also in combination like GB, MB and RB ?
C - Abfangjäger - Interceptor
J - Jagdflugzeug - Fighter one pilot - one engine
G - Großflugzeug - Multi engine aircraft medium cargo (GT) or Bomber (GB)
L - Lehrflugzeug - unarmed aircraft used as training aircraft
M - Mehrzweckflugzeug - Multi combat aircraft
N - Nachtbomber - aircraft adapted for Night bombing
R - Riesenflugzeug - Giant aircraft - RT cargo, RB Bomber.
S - Schlachtflugzeug - Ground attack aircraft also as Bomber (Kskb Dive bomber like JU-87)
T - Tanker - either for in flight refueling or fuel transport. (end of WW2)
V - Versuchsflugzeuge - Experimental and Prototypes

 

[RanulfC]

I don't know... Shouldn't you keep "R" available for "Raumshiffes"?

Raumpatrouille – Die phantastischen Abenteuer des Raumschiffes Orion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Randy

 

[Michel Van]

What i have to say, in Timeline they made also Raumpatrouille for German TV
in color and several seasons, i'm so free to correct those little errors of history...
By the way the success show bring the German People on the taste of Space Exploration...
and a R Designation for Raumschiffe at Reichsamt für Luft und Weltraumschifffahrt

 

[Anderman]

So a more Literate acronym ?

A - Aufklärung - armed reconnaissance and training aircraft with two pilots
B - Bomber - also in combination like GB, MB and RB ?
C - Abfangjäger - Interceptor
J - Jagdflugzeug - Fighter one pilot - one engine
G - Großflugzeug - Multi engine aircraft medium cargo (GT) or Bomber (GB)
L - Lehrflugzeug - unarmed aircraft used as training aircraft
M - Mehrzweckflugzeug - Multi combat aircraft
N - Nachtbomber - aircraft adapted for Night bombing
R - Riesenflugzeug - Giant aircraft - RT cargo, RB Bomber.
S - Schlachtflugzeug - Ground attack aircraft also as Bomber (Kskb Dive bomber like JU-87)
T - Tanker - either for in flight refueling or fuel transport. (end of WW2)
V - Versuchsflugzeuge - Experimental and Prototypes

Yes and you could use N as a prefix like the R so a nightfighter will NJ# similiar like the current US system like F-4F etc.

Another question will be the Air Force a independent branch or will it still part of the army and if independent will this branch
have it own rank system like the RAF ?

 

[Michel Van]

Another question will be the Air Force a independent branch or will it still part of the army and if independent will this branch
have it own rank system like the RAF ?

Nope there are service arm of Army and Navy, but got more autonomy in 1933.
Next to that is 1933 founded Reichsamt für Luftfahrt (ministry of Air) responsible for coordinate R&D for Military and Civilian like wise.
in 1950s it relabeled to Reichsamt für Luft und Weltraumschifffahrt (ministry of Air and Space), in order to deal with spaceflight thing of Von Braun

 

[Michel Van]

Back to 1920s and 1930s in TL
After WW1 and the Potsdam Treaties came allot of changes
like French imposed limitation on Armed forces including Aircraft.

On the other hand the German aircraft industry suffer of losses on contracts by government
Like discontinuation use of older models from War in favor of modernized aircraft like Junkers metal monoplane fighter.
This brings a "It's sink or swim" situation for Manufactures like Albatros, Siemens, AEG and others
1922 Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG relabel themselves to Bayerische Motoren Werke Aktiengesellschaft (BMW) and produce only combustion engines for all kind of vehicle.
other merged like to Focke-Wulf-Flugzeugbau AG in 1923.

The Germany Army tested the R-aircrafts completed during WW1 on there usefulness, with some success and some crashes
Those crashes hampers Hugo Junkers attempt to find investors for his R-Airliner proposal
Follow by Great Depression in 1929 hitting the World economy, bring also in Germany some companies in trouble either goes bankrupt or restructure like BMW
or goes for Corruption or "good connection" toward Germany Army official
what let to some wackiness decision of Army like order of Blohm & Voss (P.150) "Trident" reconnaissance, fighter, light bomber aircraft
defacto a nice plane that could only fly very fast straight on

The 1930s start new Aircraft Manufactures, like Messerschmitt but there got it hard in this environment
in mean time at Albatros company under control of Ernst Heinkel started with German inventor Oban on his "wackiness" the Jet Engine
Together with french aircraft designer who escape anti-semite France, a man who called him self now Marcel Stürmer

Then Crown prince Louis Ferdinand Prinz von Preußen took his duty for Military Aircraft division in 1933,
Things changes under Crown prince started needed Reforms and R&D projects for future of both German Air forces.
like Aerodynamic research, development of new aircraft engines and this new Jet-engine Heinkel was working on.
next to that development of new Aircraft weapons like Auto-cannon and experiment with rockets.
also use of studies like one of Abraham Wald about analysis and optimizations of aircraft armor.

He reorganized the requirement of needed Aircraft for German Army
What let to development of new Fighters, Multi-combat aircraft , big long-range Bombers, long range patrol Aircraft for Navy

The Trident

Albatros long range bomber prototype VRB-P 1041

 

[riggerrob]

I have visited the only complete surviving Junkers J.1 at Rockcliffe.

 

[Bottleship]

Russian science will actually be killed by the Germans. Wilhelm in March 1918 demanded, among other things, the closure of many universities (and, in general, the curtailment of education in Russia) and the transfer of various projects to Germany. In reality, Russian science was saved by the German revolution, which destroyed the Second Reich. In an alternate reality, Lenin, as a "friend" of the Reich, will follow Wilhelm's instructions. There will be no alternative to Lenin, no Kolchak, no tsar - there will be no one to support them.The Reds transferred huge resources to Germany in 1918, and they had no "patriotism". In reality, patriotism "woke up" after the death of the Reich, Lenin realized that the Entente would not need him as the ruler of Russia, and that he would be killed. There are practically no conditions for the Reds to develop "patriotism". Although, without this, they quite calmly gave useful resources to foreign concessions. The revolutionaries in Russia will remain in charge here and continue to break the "imperialist" technique. Yes, among the Reds there were idiots who spoiled, for example, the Ilya Muromets bombers, which caused accidents in the Soviet Air Force. In general, here we are waiting for a very deteriorated version of the USSR, without normal equipment, without large aircraft. If life in the real Stalinist USSR was very mediocre, then here it will be just awful, because the German government will not care about the Russians even more than the red ones. In reality, for example, in the USSR since 1933 "free movement of labor" has been prohibited, since 1940 "unauthorized dismissals from factories" have been prohibited. It will get worse here. If in reality in 1936 and 1940 1 kilogram of "doctor's" sausage cost 1/10 - 1/11 of the salary, here it will cost 1/5 or 1/3. I repeat - you can forget about most of the Soviet research institutes and universities, the Reich does not need large aircraft, or missiles, or anything else in Russia. Tupolev and Sikorsky, at best, will work in semi-prison conditions for the benefit of the Reich, and they will never build any TB-3 or ANT-25.

 

[lordroel]

I working on Timeline were Germany win WW1
How would affect this Aircraft development ?

Some Background Information on what is Different in this Timeline
USA remain neutral in WW1 except they went almost armed conflict with Great Britain do Sea Blockade
USSR establish in 1917 with June Bolshevik Revolution
France had military putsch against Clemenceau government. replace him with Joseph Caillaux.
Irland and India has uprise thanks German weapon delivery.
The Ottoman Empire and Austria-Hungary collapse, A-H germans parts are absorb by German Empire.

Back to Aircraft productions:
One of obvious changes is no Versailler Treaty against Germany, means no exodus of Fokker or Dornier to foreign countries.
But for French under Potsdamer Treaty, will have limitation on there Military aircraft production.

Also how would affect end of war, the German Aircraft manufactures ?
would Siemens and others continue to build Aircraft, since the military demands to ooze away ?
Allot of running programs like gigantic Bombers would stoped also in 1918,
Some completed Bomber Prototype would tested to see it they worked, later in 1920 scrap, if they not crashed during test flights.
what complicated mattes for Junkers to find investors for his gigantic airliner proposals of 1920s and 1930s.

I guess that Zeppelins still are build in Germany after the War, but how they evolved dependent on two events,
If USA are willing to sell Helium to German Empire and Hindenburg Disaster.

Fokker would stay in Germany instead of high tailing it to the Netherlands when Germany lost the war in OTL.

 

[Michel Van]

In this version of History
Wilhelm II has same Demands in 1917 peace Agreement
Note Ukraine remains in Russia because frontline 1917
But the Events in 1918 and follow years, implosion of Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans, follow german military intervention in East Europe and Balkan
Follow by Russia civil War let to German Empire neglects that Agreement.

In 1930s the Soviets start (with help of France ) a arms race what let to Second Great War 1941
the Germans win this war and install new tsar in russia, the royal family Kirill (a side line of Romanovs)
This time the Germans inspect if the new Agreements are respected by Russian (them with out Ukraine, Baltic, white russia)
That form now buffer state between United states of Europe and Republic of China. who aggressive expand into east Siberia.

Fokker would stay in Germany instead of high tailing it to the Netherlands when Germany lost the war in OTL.

yes, the company will have it glory days in 1920s but in 1930s comes the downfall
Do carelessness in production, what let to series of F-10 Aircraft crash in 1931,
Were in USA is discovers that Wood wings of F-10 had start disintegrated do faulty glue.
Fokker F-10 is pullt out service, in USA demand for All-Metal Aircraft let to shift Aircraft production were Junker profit
Fokker survive that time with assembly of Douglas DC-3 for European market.
There last big contract was for German All-Metal Fighter in 1933 and Won because cheapest offer.
But Entwurf 152 became a scandal, Fokker deliver faulty Fighters while inspection found Wood parts in wings and fuselage
Follow by cost overrun for corrections on the Aircraft.
After the war Fokker was no match against the big ones: Junkers, Heinkel, ZDF, MBB and Focke-Wulf

 

[riggerrob]

Remember that MBB is an abbreviation for Messerschmitt, Bolkow and Blohm, three major manufacturers during WW2 who were forced to ammalgamate during the post-WW2 down-sizing.
In an ATL a victorious Reich could afford to keep most of those factories going full-steam. Perhaps they would convert to building airliners, or in the case of MBB pioneer new helicopter technology.

 

[Michel Van]

Remember that MBB is an abbreviation for Messerschmitt, Bolkow and Blohm, three major manufacturers during WW2 who were forced to ammalgamate during the post-WW2 down-sizing.

Similar happen also in this timeline after Second Great War
next Messerschmitt, Bolkow and Blohm becoming MBB
Zeppelin werke, Dornier and Flugzeugbau Friedrichshafen form ZDF

Focke-Wulf, Weserflug und Hamburger Flugzeugbau fusion into Entwicklungsring Nord short ERNO.

While Heinkel Flugzeugbau and Junkers GmbH are sufficient enough big to operate on their own
with there product range and engine productions

 

[Rule of cool]

I think history showed that Germany could build world class aircraft in the 30s and 40s. The difference in this scenario would be the much greater industrial resources backing this technology level, as well as a large imperial presence forcing Germany to participate in 'The Great Game'.

What I wonder is from about 1950 when such things become possible will Greater Germany build B36-B52 class aircraft or stick with B47-V Bomber class aircraft? I'm inclined to think of 1950s-60s Greater Germany to be like Britain but with confidence and cash to bring British style good ideas into service; a big medium bomber fleet, a big P.1121-esque fleet, bring nuke MRBMs into service, have ~5 CVA01 sized fleet carriers, 5+ SSBN etc. However that might be selling Greater Germany short.

 

[uk 75]

What about the civil side?

Huge cargo and passenger Zeppelins

 

[Michel Van]

I think history showed that Germany could build world class aircraft in the 30s and 40s.

I building on that special with Junkers and their Großraumflugzeug
in 1950-1960 they build big Planes as Bomber or Cargo/Airliner
As Timeline in Joke, the German bomber Junker Ju-552B is build like the B-52
(Fact is the Boeing B-47 and B-52 wings design are based on Junkers Papers from end WW2)

in twist of fate, in 1930s a french refugee find work at Ernst Heinkel, his name Marcel Bloch.
He change his french name to Marcel Stürmer
In 1960s he design the Heinkel Blitz a tailless delta wing fighter.

On VTOL there allot German design,
like Austrian (here German) Helmut von Zborowski,
who ideas let to the Coléoptère a single-person aircraft with an unusual annular wing;
or the VJ 101 C tilt jet

There also zeppelins
But also Hindenburg disaster that almost destroy market for zeppelins,
They recover but not like the 1930s.
from 1950s on they enter niche of air cruise ship, were cruise ship not can reach inland.
also as mobil Radar Plattform in sky

 

[riggerrob]

Zeppelins would be most valuable connecting the Imperial German colonies in Africa. How do they avoid daily equatorial thunderstorms? Fly at night and tie-down during the day. Stevedores will prefer working in the sunlight anyways. If they dislike working in the heat of the mid-day sun, they are encouraged to hustle while unloading cargo at dawn … take a siesta … then finish reloading during the cool of the evening.

 

[Deleted member 4286]

What about the civil side?

Huge cargo and passenger Zeppelins

That kind of Zeppelins?

 

[Deleted member 4286]

That kind of Zeppelins?View attachment 720868View attachment 720869

or these ones

Goodyear's Luxury Dirigible of the Future - circa 1945 | Airships.net

Goodyear's vision of the future of air travel.

www.airships.net