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Aerospace after World War Three 1961

Michel Van

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First a explication how WW3 started and follow initial situation after 1961

Prelude to War
1960 was not good year for Khrushchev, the Soviet ICBM program run into trouble
First Korolev informed him that R-7 ICBM was only able to reach north part of USA,
in October the R-16 ICBM test ended in a disaster killing over 100 engineer and chief marshal Nedelin !
Khrushchev try to find a solution to Dilemma, while USA testet successful there Atlas and Titan ICBM.

One Option was the Doomsday Weapon, In Case of nuclear War it would detonate automatically ending all life on Earth.
But Khrushchev had issue with "automatically" means he had no control over it.
The other Option gave Khrushchev more control, but was most reprehensible.
The installation of a Large H-bomb inside Soviet Embassy in Washington D.C.!
in cominimg months the US authorities notice increase of Visit and materials transportation to Soviet Embassy.

Then came November 1960, to horror for Khrushchev his favorite Richard M. Nixon, lost against John F. Kennedy !
A man Khrushchev consider as immature Warmonger
One ray of hope was that Cuba announcement to be Communist Nation seeking Help at USSR.

1961
JFK was eager to deal with communism, first in Cuba.
But new Administration evaluation of CIA Operation Pluto, show they were far of ready,
So original date was delay from April to June 1961 to give them more time to prepare the forces and give them better Equipment !
In mean time US authorities notice that some of Soviet Embassy shipment, are label as "Medical Radiological Equipment" and are radioactive.
End June the Invasion of Cuba happens follow by "Support" of US Troops under Operation Pluto around 50000 US solders face hostile Cubans.
Khrushchev condemned the Cuba Invasion as USA plot to destroy a Communist Nation and menaced with counteraction.
Kennedy counter "USA does not allow itself to be threatened"

The Second West Berlin Blockade beginn, all road, Train and flight transit are interrupt, The City has supply for next 6 months.
The Vienna Meeting disaster, both side come not to agreement
August, the East German Government start to erected a Wall around West Berlin, this was long planned sanction to prevent East germans escape to the west Berlin.
This follow by dead of East germans try to escape, aggravated the Crisis !
September Kennedy spoke a Ultimatum to USSR: demolition of Berlin wall, Open Access to West Berlin or NATO forces will liberated the City.
The Soviet Embassy in Washington D.C. reports that the Warhead is installed and ready.

Reports of US troops moving in side West Berlin to Checkpoints and Transit roads, while deployment West Germans and US forces at East German Border.
Khrushchev order installation of Nuclear warheads on R-7 ICBM and Bombers and Armed them, also the Washington D.C. Warhead.
US Troops and Red Army tanks face off in Berlin as someone loses their nerve and a firefight breaks out
begin of World War 3
 

Michel Van

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Part 1
What War left over...

Most of conflict happened in first hours as ICBM, MRBM, SRBM and Bomber delivered there payload to there designated Targets.

The annihilation of Washington D.C. and New York or Seattle hit by ICBM, the miracle of Chicago were R-7 impacted in lake
But conflict endure for months as Soviet Sub attack US coast cities with nuclear Torpedos
The USA had East coast devastated by highly radioactive fallout from Cobalt-60 from Washington D.C. up to Maine.

After the War suffer the USA under los of Capital, for moment the Federal states were on there own, until new Central Government is establish.
And there were political survivors, the now President Johnson was in Raven Rock command Center as War broke out
Kennedy was not so lucky he was in White House as Soviet Embassy exploded with force of 20 mega tons, now a 2 mile wide crater
part of Congress and Senat had be evacuate to new bunker in West Virginia.
They establish in Charleston temporal federal Capitol in begin 1962

The Military had suffer under War, the Pentagon was gone, several sites were Bomb or attack by Soviet sub or bomber.
USAF fleet had loses and were on 50% operational aircraft, US NAVY had simlear numbers, but there was not threat the USA had to fear,
Canada, Europe, Soviet Union, China, Korea and Japan were war-ravaged radioactive wastelands

Let us Continue...it's was the fault of Kennedy
President Johnson manage to get out mess, claiming complete innocence, while he put blame on JFK.
So endend Kennedy as The biggest mass murder since Adolf Hitler in the history books.
The casualty numbers in USA were around 30 million, low compare to 300~500 million dead in rest of World
and for moment the New US government in Charleston D.C had other issue: Rebuilding a Nation.
 

Dilandu

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But conflict endure for months as Soviet Sub attack US coast cities with nuclear Torpedos

We have ballistic & cruise missile submarines at this time, as well as a sizable fleet of bombers, including missile-carrying. You definitely knew too little about the matter to try such complex alternate history.
 

Michel Van

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..You realize that this just didn't make any sense, aren't you?
yes,
There was rumor in 1960s, that Soviet had installed a Nuke in there Washington Embassy basement.
also it's odd that Russian Embassy is around 4 miles outside the City
 

uk 75

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Kruschev seems to be a favourite bad guy. But listening to his son, he avoided a show down at Checkpoint Charlie by liaising with the commanders on the spot to damp down the tank stand off.
Arguably the Cuban Missile Crisis deprived NATO of Jupiter and Thor missiles leaving Europe vulnerable to Soviet SS4 and SS5 missiles. They were replaced by Polaris missiles and later Poseidons. But these missiles did not answer the question would Washington trade Chicago for Frankfurt or Manchester whereas the Thors and Jupiters did.
 

Dilandu

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Kruschev seems to be a favourite bad guy.

He was more adventurous & opportunistic than Stalin, so in comparison he probably looked much more "aggressive", yes) Stalin was careful and calculating type, he never done anything without firstly calculating the outcomes, and providing the best justification possible. Khrushev was much more eager to jump on opportunity and capitalize on it.

Arguably the Cuban Missile Crisis deprived NATO of Jupiter and Thor missiles leaving Europe vulnerable to Soviet SS4 and SS5 missiles. They were replaced by Polaris missiles and later Poseidons. But these missiles did not answer the question would Washington trade Chicago for Frankfurt or Manchester whereas the Thors and Jupiters did.

Well, at this point US considered the survival of their nuclear arsenal as much more important priority. Also, the MLF - the initial concept was, that Europeans would maintain the fleet of Polaris-equipped ships and submarines, with the missiles and warheads provided by USA. The idea was, that this would provide Europe with credible deterrence, not dependent on US decisions.
 

Michel Van

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He was more adventurous & opportunistic than Stalin, so in comparison he probably looked much more "aggressive"

This was one concept behind idea of Embassy Nuke
Here Khrushev is face with problem R-7 is unable reach all there Targets, R-16 disaster were chief marshal Nedelin dies.
Cuba is not yet a launch platform for Soviet MRBM.

So what to do ?
According some sources Khrushev was looking for Alternatives, like Doomsday weapon, but rejected the concept because it's was automatic, not under his Control.
Kennedy also face several presentation of Weapons system like:
USAF Orion Battleships, riding on nuclear explosion, SLAM with it Nuclear Ramjet engine or RAND corp. concepts on Doomsday weapons
Compare to those insane concept, is the Embassy Nuke almost normal...
 

Michel Van

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if there too much complain about the Embassy Nuke here
Alternative successful R-16 test launch in October 1960
during WW3 several R-16 hit USA
 

uk 75

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I am not clear why the Soviet Union would initiate a war in this period. As is explained in 'Resurrection Day" Curtis Le May's SAC (Strategic Air Command) was able to overkill targets in the Soviet Union.. RAF Bomber Command in support.
Kruschev was keen on modernising all aspects of the Soviet military. That did not make him a warmonger.
We dont need to speculate about Kennedy. The 'missile gap" was filled by the hordes of Miniuteman silos that still form the basis of the US deterrent. Added to them were over 30 Polaris subs.
 

Michel Van

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Part 2

What happen to US Aircraft companies and current programs ?

Boeing Seattle plant was hit by 5 Mt Soviet ICBM, follow several bomber attack in Regio.
Grumman, Republic and others on East coast were victims of ICBM, Bomber attack or Radioactive Fallout

More lucky were
Lockheed, Northrop, Douglas and North American Aviation in Los Angeles.
Rayn and Convair in San Diego
Do the lack to reach by soviet ICBM or Bombers, but the cities coast was hit by Nuclear Torpedos

Unharmed were:
McDonnell, Glen L.Martin, Ling-Temco-Vought and Fairchild
Either not targeted or Attack failed. (soviet Bomber targets)

After WW3 the new US Government issue cancellation orders to Companies, because budget needed to rebuild the nation.
Most famous victims were XB-70, the Mercury program or A-12 spy aircraft and YF-12 mach 3 interceptor by Lockheed
While service of Weapon system ended like B-58 Hustler, Titan I do extrem operation cost or lack of Targets.
Other programs ended because there company not existing anymore, like Boeings X-20 Dyna Soar
While some program continue the Minuteman LGM-30, who was completed under North American Aviation under designation B-71B in 1971.
It's backup program Titan II (B-68B) became prime launch rocket for USAF and NASA ending service of Atlas rocket during 1960s.
The Titan II was needed to launch Spy Sats to check potential threats in former communist nations.

The Lost of Boeing was harsh blow for USAF, the Company had provided allot Hardware for USAF and NASA programs.
Currently USAF was using remaining Fleet so good as they could, but in long term new Aircraft were needed to replace ones of Boeing.
Something the US Government in Charleston D.C refused for moment.

But the Political situation and change in Military doctrine force the Government to issue order for a Military aircraft in 1960s
 

Michel Van

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Part 3

The need for small support Aircraft

Johnson folly is term give by critics on President Initiative to keep US troops in Europe, Japan and Korea after the War
It was humanitarian act toward former allies and NATO partners after the War, were millions of refuges were in south France, Italy, Spain and Portugal.
Here the US troops were a police force and fight gangs and Warlords.
Another part of Johnson folly was the support for Israel, after WW3 the Arabic nations try to invade Israel, until USA intervention.

This let change of US military doctrine, toward use of more conventional weapons.
The Introduktion of F-111 Freedom fighter by Northrop was first step
But USAF and US Navy needed something better that fit there demands, they step way from there pre War High Demands on Supersonic
And study small subsonic aircraft use as Fighter, Bomber or Attack aircraft that was easy to maintain.
Both come up with so identical design, That Secretary of Defence decides to buy only one airplane for Both.
Ling-Temco-Vought won the tender, they offer a scaled down F-8 with modification for USAF like removal folding wings mechanic and arresting hook of Navy version.
The LTV Corsair II enter in service 1965 as A/F-7 at US Navy and as F-114 Striker and B-72 Striker (last without Guns but better ECM)

The Corsair II was exported to Israel (F-114/B-72) and Spain Portugal, Italy and Greece to support there Air-Force
later also to Saudi Arabia, Thailand, Philippines and Australia but that is another story
 

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Get a copy of No Place to Hide by David Bradley, published in 1948.
 

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Dear Dilandu,
Please try to remember that this is an "alternate" forum.
Anything can happen.
This forum does not have to be strictly linked to the original time line.

For example, in another alternate time line, Notzis develop nuclear bombs a few years earlier. they still lose the war against Russia, but as they retreat, Notzis cache a few nuclear bombs in Ukranian and Polish rail hubs. Just as Russian Army numbers peak in those rail hubs, nuclear bombs explode under them, killing hundreds of thousands and sterilizing Poland for a generation. Considering Hitler's tainted drug supply, this scenario MIGHT be possible in late 1944 or early 1945.

Returning to this forum, Soviets could sneak nukes into major American ports a few months ahead of the confrontation with JFK. If the confrontation goes against communists, they could flatten half the cities in the USA with nukes stashed in warehouses.

Returning to our current time line (2020): look how badly Beirut was devastated by an ACCIDENTAL explosion.

Considering these alternate scenarios, you don't even need rockets to devastate a dozen American cities. Many of those coastal cities are host for hundreds of USN ships.
 

uk 75

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This is a strange scenario which perhaps would have been more realistic if it had been set in the pre-H bomb era of the early 1950s.
By 1961 as the film Dr Strangelove and the later BBC documentary The Wargame not to mention the less realistic but evocative film On the Beach showed, general war in the H bomb era was unsurvivable.
In tbe early 1950s with "only" Atomic bombs your idea of a broken backed war followed by continued arms production is what was envisaged by planners.
 

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I can see a lot of plotholes in this AH.
The biggest is, where is your fuel coming from to keep these aircraft flying?
Where is the aluminium coming from? Where are the high strength steels coming from? Can you even feed the workers in the aircraft factories let alone worry about whether your going to build B-70s or not?
 

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This is a strange scenario which perhaps would have been more realistic if it had been set in the pre-H bomb era of the early 1950s.
By 1961 as the film Dr Strangelove and the later BBC documentary The Wargame not to mention the less realistic but evocative film On the Beach showed, general war in the H bomb era was unsurvivable.
In tbe early 1950s with "only" Atomic bombs your idea of a broken backed war followed by continued arms production is what was envisaged by planners.

On the Beach was utterly unscientific, and on those terms alone - codswallop.

Can't speak to"The Wargame", but the UK certainly was in a more precarous situation for initial damage in a nuclear confrontation because of the concentrated geography of the nation.
 

Michel Van

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The biggest is, where is your fuel coming from to keep these aircraft flying?

There allot Oil Wells and operationel refinery in USA, the Soviet had in this scenario only FOUR icbm and Bomber to attack the USA and US air defence got most soviet bomber
Also there is Mexico, Iran and Saudi Arabia who have intact oil Industry.

Where is the aluminium coming from? Where are the high strength steels coming from? Can you even feed the workers in the aircraft factories let alone worry about whether your going to build B-70s or not?

There local sources of raw materials in US
XB-70 is never build in this TL, but there other Produkt the aircraft factories can build. see next post

Can't speak to"The Wargame", but the UK certainly was in a more precarous situation for initial damage in a nuclear confrontation because of the concentrated geography of the nation.
it's realistic depiction of 1965 nuclear attack on UK
The BBC withdrawn it on order of Government and was show first time on TV on 31 July 1985 !
 

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The US Air Force determined that nuclear weapons were not worth using by 1953. Of course, that did not stop the US from matching the Soviet Union in terms of capabilities. The Soviet Union detonated its first atomic bomb years before the CIA estimate. Then there was the 'shock' of Sputnik, and seeing the Russians put heavier payloads into orbit shortly after. Who was the first man in space? I think that when writing speculative fiction, one should present plausible scenarios, not 'off the top of my head' ideas. When the list of US targets was published, it was clear that the damage from 20 warheads or bombs was sufficient to cripple the US. Only deeply buried installations would survive intact, insuring Mutually Assured Destruction. A no win - no win scenario.
 

Michel Van

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Post 4

Subvention programs

After the War the US industry had to adapt to new situation, needed raw materials had to come from inland sources for moment.
Special Oil and Metalls, lucky the Soviets had fired only four ICBM and send there Bombers, the US Air Defence got most of them.
most of Industry was intact, But the Cobalt-60 bomb in Washington D.C. had made most damage with it's radioaktive fallout

With destroy Cities, million of refugees, The New US government in Charleston D.C had to act and issue a immediate aid program.
The remaining aerospace or Car manufactures got contract to build prefab house and Shelters
The Situation has some similarities with WW2 were US car industry start to build Aircraft for military

One Government advisor the Architect Buckminister-Fuller proposed his Dome Homes and protective Domes,
Those geodesic dome were easy in mass production, could build with minimal effort and first village for refugees were establish in spring 1962
The large protective Domes took longer to build, had allot issue. but were adequate protections against fallout on important sites.

320px-Preserved_R_Buckminster_Fuller_and_Anne_Hewlitt_Dome_Home.jpg

A Dome Home

In mean time they try to contain the Fallout
One attempt was operation Foam, from low flying Aircraft spray gluey PU foam that harden fast forming a rainproof coating over the Fallout.
The results were mixed, next of destruction of wildlife and plants, were the coating not saturation.
Over time do UV light start the harden foam to decomposed, also it's burn like hell.

The most effective way was to using convict, to collect the radioaktive material and burry it in rainproof concrete domes.
With promise freedom and impunity, if they survive the work, to many of them were burry in the concrete domes.

The Economic and Financial chaos endure to end 1960, but in 1970 the USA had recover from the War
But in mean time rest of World had change Radical...
 

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Part 5

Unholy alliance

As USA recover from War Damage, happen in world allot of things.
First ownership on orphaned territory from Europeans Nations, also Political struggle that let to Putsch and dictatorships, like in South America.
The biggest conflict here was Venezuela and Brazil dispute over annexation of British Guyana, Dutch Surinam and French Guyana
After short War both Nations settle on Agreement, were the three territory were equal divided between them.
The other was between Mexico, Guatemala and Honduras about British Honduras, here manage Mexico to get it as province of Belize.

Brazil had Putsch and it's Military Junta, declared themselves the inherits of Portugal Empire and declare claim of Portugal and all colonies !
They got rich with export of Clean food to USA, Europa and other nations,
in mean time the Country got refugees from Europe and Japan, allot of them were academics, specialist, which Brazil industry profit.
It went even so far that Brazil Junta arrange Expedition into European wastelands to salvage everything useful including Weapons, also nuclear ones...

In North Africa arose France-Algerie
The former french colony with Civil war, was overrun by European refugee mostly from France,
on long therm the Algerian were outnumber by refugee, in 1968 the Algerian FLN lost the battle
and Leader of french OAS became the Frist President of France-Algerie
with the declaration to be inherits of France and declare claim on former territory.


India became major power after the War
They profited also by sending Salvage Teams to Soviet and European wasteland, with special interest in England.
And manage with reverse Engineering to copy hardware like Avro Vulcan Bomber or Soviet Rockets.
The India Atomic Bomb was there own development since had they pre war research nuclear Reactors.

The Third-Pakistan India war in 1971 was perfect opportunity for testing new Hardware.
Since ww2 went both rivals to war, now India finish it, with there new partner Iran, who had issue with Pakistan also !
India Air-force nuked the capital Islamabad and bomb Pakistan Airfields, while Iranian force invade the Country from west,
Follow by Indian Army from east. After the War India and Iran divide former Pakistan at long Indus river.
The partnership between Iran and India was fruitful, Oil and Petrol products for India rising Industry while Iran got India products.
Also the threat of Nuclear Power India, help Iran in it's conquest of Kuwait, east parts of Iraq, Iran north border of 1801.

This worry the USA very much
Special that India started to test ICBM, there Former Allies Iran refused to end there relationship with India. who threatened the USA not to meddling in there Affairs.
So USA invest in there important Partnern in regio: Saudi Arabia. Also start the rearmament of USA.
 

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Part 6

We Need a Response

India as active Nuclear Power and Brazil attempt to get Atomic bomb, worry the USA government deeply.
The US had rest nuclear stockpile from WW3, but neglect there Weapon Systems after War, for more budget for recovery program.
Now they having to pay the price, the USAF had scrap the B-58 (high cost) the B-47 (end of lifetime) had the rest of B-52 and KC-135 Fleet.
Only new were F-111 and F-114/B-72 and hand full of Titan II as ICBM at Vandenberg.

The US congress adopt a rearmament Program

USAF reactivate the Minuteman ICBM program under North American Aviation, who manage to build a operational system in 27 months.
The Secretary of Defence announce the new ICBM disconcerting as "B-71B"
On Bomber there was dispute what USAF wanted and US Congress willing to pay.
USAF wanted two bomber, one to fill gap the B-47 Left and a successor to B-52, Both had to carry nuclear or conventional weapons.

They study the effectiveness of bomber during war, with conclusion that low-level flight with medium range Weapons would be effective.
This involve development of Additional Weapon system that the Bomber carry, something US congress disapprove do high cost.
While B-47 successor is conventional build Bomber, ironic designating as B-74.
Wanted USAF B-52 successor a mach 1.5 Aircraft with swing wings. what refused by US congress and President
A compromise was made: The Bomber got Transtsonic wings with additional pylon stations for more Weapons.
As medium range Weapons proposed USAF to reactivate Skybold program for Nuclear and
Development of a "Cruise Missile" for nuclear/conventional attacks.
The US congress voted for Cruise Missile option and cancel the new Skybold proposal.

The B-52 successor became the B-80
b1sal-a-jpg.4131

(illustration how it would look like)

Another problem was reconnaissance
After WW3 the USA used Spy sats and U-2 aircraft
For Europan Soviet Wasteland it's adequate, but India copy cat Soviet AAM and Improved them.
What was confirmed with shoot down of a U-2 over India !

There were not Alternative for US intelligence, the A-12 and YF-112 program were terminated and hardware scrap for needed material.
So they focus on reconnaissance Satellite, but they had problem those could only operate automatic and most of picture show cloud cover.
What needed was new spy sat with better resolution and Manned! to take better selective Picture.
USAF started Initiative for a manned Spacecraft and found allies at NASA...
 
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Michel Van

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Part 7

NOTE: do WW3 and other issue, the US Technology level in 1970s is still mid 1960s

US return into Space

The US space program had allot issue in 1960s
The Soviet scooped them with orbital flight of Yuri Gagarin and Gherman Titov
While USA made two suborbital hop with Alan Shepard and Virgil Grissom
last one ended in tragedy as Grissom drowned after landing, do issue with Capsule and errors by salvage crew.
with Dead of a Astronaut the Mercury program was in trouble, while Capitol Hill wanted to shut it down.
Went NASA to adapted the Mercury capsules for land landing by modified the Airbag system
Then happen World War 3 and USA had to rebuild, NASA got Order to stop Mercury and focus on other issues.
it's seems the Agency would face closure by US Congress, but someone with Brains prevented that.

During 1961 ad 1971 NASA help in rebuild effort special with research and Satellites launches
The had to cooperate with USAF on launch rocket Titan II since the Titan I and Atlas were discontinue.
USAF needed NASA as Allies to justify the Titan II program at US Congress. one as ICBM and launch system for both.
With India as Nuclear Power willing to use the bomb, change everything. US congress gave money to USAF for new weapon systems
Like B-71B ICBM, B-74 & B-80 bombers and another Program:

Mercury Mark II
After WW3 the US intelligence was reliant on NRO Spy sats and U-2 flight, in begin it was adequate
But from 1971 things change radical as a U-2 was shot down over India by a guided missile
While the Spy sats had own limitation, either sites obscured by the cloud or photo of uninteresting areas !
This was do automatic system of Spy sats, at NRO there were thinking on Manned system were Astronauts would take selective photos from space.
USAF look into it with same conclusion, a manned system was needed, and they ask NASA to join them in effort.
At First US congress was resistance to new program, but USAF/NASA won with argumentation "it's better to have US astronauts first in space before India do it"
But not with rival "low cost" program "Cyclops" of a mach 3 drone launch by B-52 or B-80.

NASA had issue study for successor for Mercury in begin 1960s called Mark II,
This was base for new program now called Gemini (Latin: twin) because it carry two Astronauts in Space.
As main contractor they took again McDonnell, the biggest change was use of land landing, they took the Parasail landing concept.
In mean time Cyclops was a embarrassing fiasco, not working ramjets, sheer of trajectory, crashes and damaged or lost Film-canister.

Gemini began it's series of test flight in 1976, EVA test, rendezvous with Agena stage, Official NASA research on human endurance in Space
In realty there were USAF test for enemy satellite inspection, collection of Film-canister by EVA
NRO defined there Manned camera system and took McDonnell as Main contractor for it, official label as "Manned Orbit Laboratory" for NASA and USAF.
Lucky for both M.O.L. was approved after India launch there first manned spacecraft, Who were thinking in simlear lines.
NRO found new information on India military Hardware but also bad surprise in South China !
 

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Part 8

Private aviation and the Military needs

The Lost of Boeing was hard blow for USAF and US airlines. the 707 and KC-135 were good aircrafts
but with there main production site in Seattle nuked and was what left was merely a Aircraft design bureau and management offices without production...
The competition was happy that main rival was "out of Order", but coming 10 years were hard for them
They survived on Government contracts for shelter construction, Fuller Domes parts or be lucky to build some aircraft or rockets for Military
Boeing was not so lucky the company close there books in 1963, in 1970s thing change to better do need of airliners for military & aeronautical companies...

The Boeing 707 is, better say was The Icon of pre-war era.
Now most of them were out of service do lack of spare parts or had confiscation by the USAF for there fleet.
It became clear a replacement for 707/KC-135 was needed in 1971 and industry presented there version

General Dynamics: CV-1100 based on CV-990, but smokeless engines and improved aerodynamics

Douglas: DC-8-series 70, improved version of DC-8 from 1958

Lockheed: model 300, a new design with a T-tail and a high-mounted swept wing with four engine. it was primary a air cargo/Tanker


The winner was the DC-8 and Model 300, last one as pure air cargo,
While DC-8 will feature as tanker, transport, airborne Radar station or Command center.

Next to that needed USAF ultra large Cargo Aircraft for supply the troops in the US Unincorporated territory of Europe and Asia.
the craft has to carry 281,000 lb cargo over intercontinental distance and be fast in Loading and unloading.

Lockheed: Model 500 with wing span of 222 ft. and take off mass of 837,000 lb

General Dynamics presented ground effect craft in size of Hughes H-4 Hercules

Douglas: the D-920 a aircraft with wing span of 195 ft and take off mass of 600,000 lb


USAF not like the ground effect craft/sea plane concept (is something for NAVY), DC-100 had issue with detachment of cockpit from fuselage.
While model 500 was easiest to load and offload, making the winner the biggest aircraft ever build !

The US aeronautical companies need also replacement for 707
The DC-8-70 and CV-1100 were welcome for a business returning to pre-war levels.
Also for Lockheed model 300 and that giant there building, as Cargo planes
Model 500 gave UnitedAirlines and A&A a new business model: Drive & Fly
A passenger could drive with his car to Airport, were his car is loaded into Cargo plane, were the passenger take seat on upper deck.
After landing the car is offload and passenger drive with his car to his destination.
Drive & Fly became a slowly a success in 1980s
Douglas try to enter the market with modified D-920, but they not had production capacity.
Do used capacityed for DC-8, while other were taken by Lockheed Model 500.
 

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Part 9

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GUARDIAN

After WW3 were debate about better protection against nuclear attack by ICBM.
There were allot studies and proposals but with no real enemy, things never progress, this change radical in 1971 with India little nuclear war against Pakistan.
With India now testing ICBM the US Government went into action and Military look into there Studies.

There proposal was improved XLIM-49 system now called GUARDIAN.
It consist two missile, the Spartan long range and Sprint a fast short rage interceptors
Both equip with modified nuclear warheads that produce high neutron output.
The idea behind is that Neutron radiation damage or premature detonate the enemy warhead before impact.
But was is a technical challenge, special in Radar and Computers systems,
Autonetics (now successor of IBM), develop new generation of fast Computers able to calculate the needed information to send precise Sparten and Sprint to there targets.
On radar they step away form mechanical system, toward active electronically scanned array, a quantum leap in Radar Technology.
Finally in 1976 the first successful Test of Spartan and Sprint were made from Kwajalein Atoll, they intercepted Minuteman armed warheads !
From here the Installations of ABM site begann and the problems...

The first GUARDiAN site wen operational near new Capital of US, Jefferson D.C. in Colorado (completed in 1976 as a planned city)
There was allot of protest by US Governors and mayors demanding that Guardians site are complete first in there areas.
In total 17 Guardian site were planned with option to go up 25 site

The protest were understandable, in begin 1980 the people were under fear, because of the second Chinese Empire
Founded in south china around Pearl River Delta, There new leader and Emperor manage to united old China and rise from ashes of WW3!
What makes threatening development is that this Empire is working on nuclear weapons and ICBM.
While the Chinese Government regular vengeful accusing the USA to have attack China without any reason during WW3.

Another issue happen during Guardian test in pacific
During Sparten warhead qualification test in hight altitude went the light out in parts of nearby Hawaii !
Not only the lights, also Telephone, Electricity, Radios, Tv Sets and Computers went out, and last ones were broken beyond repair.
Some side effect of this nuclear test from Johnson Atoll generated side effect that burn out electronic component !
The Scientist labeled the effect Destructive Impuls on Electronics, short D.I.E. provoked by radiation due high altitude nuclear explosion.
D.I.E became controversy in USA, most cities under GUARDiAN would suffer under D.I.E. during nuclear attack.
The System itself came under review and test to see if it protected against D.I.E.
Autonetics and other electronics companies got billions of dollars to find a solution against it.
majoritarian opinion not care about D.I.E. so long they survive a nuclear attack do GUARDIAN.
But RAND corp. And Military looking into potentialities of D.I.E.


PEACEKEEPER
The need for new US ICBM rise with development in India, China, Indonesia and Brazil.
The new system should give deterrence, the option of countervalue strike and keeping Peace by D.I.E.
This ICBM should if needed, detonate 10 warheads in high altitude over enemy nation the resulting D.I.E would burn out enemy electronics.
The Opposition to Peacekeeper criticized that his D.I.E. would provoke a nuclear war instead of prevent it !
Another issue was protection of new ICBM from Nuclear attack the solution to that was the ICBM was installed on Mobile launcher
Those drive Military property in Desert or in Norther states of USA like Saskatchewan or Alberta and Manitoba.
(The postwar remains of Canada were incorporate as federal states into USA in 1976)

Against all criticism the ICBM was build and deployed on trucks, constant on move

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Michel Van

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Some question on B-74 of Part 6

How realistic is to modified a F-4 Phantom II into a Bomber ?
as Low cost alternative for conventional and nuclear bombing
 

Michel Van

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Aerospace after World War Three :)

Version two
yes that would be USAF after WW3 in 1983, were World is bomb back into stone age... ;)



That's why i took a 1961 scenario, what left part of civilization over, to recover fast
Yes i know even under that scenario there is fast nuclear waste land from England over Europe, USSR, North china to Japan.
While the US east coast and part of Canada are nuclear hit by soviets.

The USA in this scenario protect there former NATO partners Territory, the so called Johnson folly
Special the areas were is no government anymore (those with own Government: Irland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Swiss, Hungary)
The US support those, while to re-establish former nations like France and Britain

One of those support is Northrop F-111A Freedom Fighter (in our world F-5)
Main reason is to replace the pre-war combat jets by multi-combat aircraft, who is cheaper and easier to maintain as a F-104.
Who were difficult to operate and maintain in Post war Europe
The other was that some Warlords used Nato or Soviets aircraft to attack there neighbors before raid or conquest.
To have Combat Aircraft that distinguishably from enemy one is a benefit

But the F-111A Fighter and B support combat and bomber were not adequate for all roles needed.
This let to development of F/A-14, F-114 Striker and B-72 (all based on A-7 Corsair II) in mid 1960s
 

Grey Havoc

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The former Republic of Ireland would likely end up being reabsorbed by Great Britain.
 

Michel Van

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The former Republic of Ireland would likely end up being reabsorbed by Great Britain.
There is not much over of Great Britain after soviets are finish with them in WW3 with IRBM, SRBM and Bombers
if USA not support them in rebuild, it more likely that Republic of Ireland TAKEOVER former Great Britain...
 

uk 75

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I think that some of the interesting "alternate" US and other projects/technology could be incorporated with a different starting point.
Let me run this one past you.
The "failure" of Kennedy to prevent the building of the Berlin Wall in 1961 plus the unsympathetic attitudes to West Germany of Macmillan and De Gaulle lead to a major row in NATO about the credibility of its forces in West Germany. Kennedy loses patience with the Europeans and he and Macnamara embark on the programmes and policies you describe.
Talks on a peaceful but non aligned Germany had always been resisted by Adenauer (I would rather have half of Germany whole than the whole Germany halfcock). Willy Brandt stands as SPD leader advocating a "New Start" in relations with Moscow. He meets Erich Honecker (who masterminded the Wall) in Moscow and with Russian leaders hammers out a "Finland" solution for a non Nuclear Germany.
Kennedy's response is immediate. The US begins the withdrawal of US Seventh Army and its Air Forces.
In Britain, the anti-nuclear mood and the scandals of the Macmillan government bring a Labour Government to power commited to nuclear disarmament and the withdrawal of US forces. The Pound collapses and the UK plays little further part in your story.
In France De Gaulle tells the country: "We are alone again and must act accordingly" He confirms that France will leave NATO and that its Dissuasion Force will be directed at "anyone who threatens France."
This world would be very similar to your starting point and is based on real world responses to the 1961 Berlin crisis.
 

T. A. Gardner

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First off, the scenario presented has some serious flaws in it. The biggest is probably that the Soviets could somehow smuggle a thermonuclear weapon into their Washington DC embassy. At the time, H-bombs weighed on the order of 5 to 7 tons and were huge devices. It's far more likely that someone in the field during a crisis slips up like the crew of the Soviet submarine B-59 where if by chance the flotilla commodore wasn't aboard they'd have nuked the carrier USS Randolph with a their single nuclear torpedo aboard during the Cuban Missile Crisis and that'd be it.


Second, for every nuke the Soviets deliver on the US they get several in return. The US would still have Jupiter and Thor IRBM's in England, Italy, and Turkey. This is in addition to Atlas, and possibly a few Titan missiles coming from the US. Then there's SAC. The Soviets have nothing to match that. The best they could do is send some Tu 95 on one-way missions to the US facing off against BOMARC and Nike Hercules missiles. Their own air defenses are limited to SA-1 around Moscow and some SA-2 elsewhere.
In Europe, the US still has hundreds of M-28 and 29 Davy Crockett available along with short range nukes like Honest John.
Sure the Soviets have FROG missiles and Scud types but this just means Europe becomes a radioactive wasteland.

The USN will pile on eventually and the Soviets at that time really don't have a navy of their own to stop them.

So, the Soviets get a pasting. The US gets hit some.

As far as US aerospace goes...

You missed Boeing Wichita which is building B-52's at that time. Convair was bought out by General Dynamics in 1953 so they survive in places like Dallas Ft. Worth, while Convair's missile division survives in Tucson AZ. Douglas is spread around the inland part of Los Angeles so it survives. North American is well inland so nuclear torpedoes do nothing to it and it's operations in Dallas and Columbus OH go unscathed too.
Republic Aviation is in Farmingdale NY, and much like other corporations like GE or Westinghouse not likely to be hit if the Soviets target major population centers like NY City.

The bottom line here is that the Soviets fail to take out most of the US aviation industry in this war while having their own bombed into rubble by repeated B-47 and B-52 strikes.

So, the politicians in Washington are moved to the command bunker in W. Virginia at the Greenbriar, most US industry survives, Europe glows in the dark, and the Soviets end up losing even if the Soviet Union isn't invaded as part of this.
 

Michel Van

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First off, the scenario presented has some serious flaws in it.
i overwork the Scenario for moment
i have to stay on 1961 scenario for two reason

Frist the Cuba Crisis has became almost a cliché in Alternate history

The other is level of damage the world suffer do nuclear weapons
From 1962 onward a nuclear war scenario let to total end of civilization.

What differently ?
no Nedelin disaster the R-16 get earlier in operational status in 1961
6 more US targets for soviet ICBM and bomber fleet.
on February 9, 1961 happen an international incident that set thing in motion that let to WW3 later in that year.
 
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