FREMM-EVO

Stellerfella said:
Wow. That would be an interesting twist. Can Italy really give up one its hulls when it's also looking after Portugal now?
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Just as in France, export comes first… that said, if there's 2 navies that ca afford it in europe, it's those 2.
But I could see Greece being barred from buying 2 more second-hand FREMMs if this happens, at least until 2032ish
 
Titus K said:
Just as in France, export comes first… that said, if there's 2 navies that ca afford it in europe, it's those 2.
But I could see Greece being barred from buying 2 more second-hand FREMMs if this happens, at least until 2032ish
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I've heard differently as regards the Luleå class. The Swedes may be waiting at the end of the line
 
Stellerfella said:
I've heard differently as regards the Luleå class. The Swedes may be waiting at the end of the line
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Yes because their class is quite different from the French and Greek variants.
Of 13 ships, the Swedes are getting n° 8 / 10 / 12 / 13 .

If the Belgians really get their first FREMM EVO in 2028 it’s probably a simple transfer of an Italian variant ( Teseo mk2 / MU90 / 2xA50 … )
 
Titus K said:
According to marineschepen, the FREMM EVO is the preferred alternative to ASWF if no solution is found between Belgium and NL
Italy is willing to deliver the first frigate in 2028, so one of it's own hulls.

https://premium.marineschepen.nl/italie-dwingt-jetten-tot-fors-tegenbod-om-aswf-programma-te-redden/
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Some additional reporting detail from VRT news: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2026/0...kt-op-nieuwe-italiaanse-gevechtsschepen-nede/

The Belgian Navy explored eleven potential candidates, with five actual responses to their RFI - Fincantieri with the FREMM-EVO, Naval Group with the FDI, Navantia with the F110, and from Turkey - no specific company was specified - the I-class frigates. The fifth respondent was not identified, but apparent it was not British, who did not respond to the RFI at all.

Of the offers, those from Fincantieri, Naval Group, and Navantia were down selected and will now compete. The FREMM-EVO seems to be the clear favorite, The FDI option from Naval Group was competitive in all respects but schedule, and delivery uncertainty on the timeline Belgium needs - by 2030 - was too uncertain. The F110 apparently apparently did not score as well on anti-submarine warfare - which is interesting, particularly versus the FDI - and it seems that the lack of any ships yet in service also hurt its chances.

The Belgians target three ships on a budget of €3.2 billion, with a delivery timeframe of 2029-2030. Which is much more realistic than the 2028 delivery target, which is shorter than that of the first FREMM-EVO currently under construction!

The aggressive timeline (2030-31-32?) does technically conflict with that for Portugal (2029-2031), but it seems this is betting on the - finally approved at the end of August - infrastructure upgrades at Riva Trigoso, which will add a third launching line and enable four ships to be under assembly at once. If I had to guess, this would be managed by focusing Riva Trigoso only on FREMM-EVO production, with the remaining PPX (2), last PPA (1), and MMPC (4) pushed off to Muggiano's assembly halls? And then have Castellammare di Stabia handle large hulls like the LSS and DDX?

-edit-

Apologies, when I started this reply you hadn't posted the second link yet. Got side-tracked and didn't get around to finishing it until several hours after I first started it.
 
Today at parliment the Portuguese defense minister gave a breakdown and additional details on the costs of the FREMM EVO, they are the following:
  • An increased AAW capacity vs Italian frigates, likely meaning all 32x VLS for Aster
  • Unitary cost -> 893 million euros + Modifications requested by the PoN -> 63 million euros
  • Total per ship -> 960 million euros
  • Weapons, munitions, missiles and decoys -> 310 million euros
  • Sustainment costs across the vessels lifecycle -> 461 million euros
  • Upgrades on the Lisbon Naval Base -> 130 million euros
  • Upgrades on the Arsenal do Alfeite shipyard -> 95 million euros
  • Floating dock -> 55 million euros
  • Training and testing equipment -> 40 million euros
  • Simulation and training -> 38 million euros
Additionaly the industrial share of portuguese companies on this deal will be of around 8.3% (~320 million euros), this includes:
  • Drones from Tekever
  • Command and Control from Critical Software
  • Communications equipment from EID
  • Simulators from ETI Floating dock from West Sea
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€310 million for weapons/ammo/decoys of three 32 vls cell frigates seems very low to me.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2102446441192906771
View: https://x.com/Drecas_2000/status/2102446441192906771
 
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Broadly speaking, the "normal" procurement volume for ships is typically 1.5x - so, for example if you bought two Mk.13 ships you'd buy 120 RIM-66 for them, that sort of thing.

This is something of a rule of thumb but is certainly not always held to, especially in the post-Cold War era. It would not be surprising to me at all if the Portuguese were buying at a 1.0 or 1.1 ratio - there are certainly cases of even less being procured in other navies. FWIW, the Greeks up until recently were buying at around a 1.2 ratio - 116x Aster 30 B1 for 96 A50 cells and 29x MM40 Block 3 Exocet for 24 canisters on deck - but that may have changed since the fourth ship was added.

With that being said, when comparing the Greek and Portuguese purchases, I would also add two observations.

The first is that we do not know the Portuguese mix of missiles. Aster 15 is cheaper than Aster 30 B1 - and especially B1NT - and depending on the exact mix of missiles, they could actually be paying significantly less than the Greeks for, say, the same 100 missiles.

The second observation is that Greek frigates have Mk.49 RAM, would certainly add to the costs significantly. RAM is quite capable, but comes at quite a cost for that at about $1M per missile. A fully loaded Mk.49 has about $21M sitting in it, and if you are procuring at a 1.5x rate that's $31-32M per ship. And then you can throw on an additional ~ $10M for the launcher itself. Call that maybe €37M per ship and that does make up over a third of the difference in funds per ship for munitions - €103.3M per Portuguese FREMM and €200M for munitions as a contract option alongside the procurement of the fourth FDI-HN.

Though, correct me if I'm wrong - has not been activated, yet? My understanding was that the Hellenic Navy had taken the option for the fourth ship (€922M) and for the upgrades of the initial ships to Standard 2+ (€61M), but not opted for the €200M munitions package. I am struggling to find figures for the cost of munitions for the first three ships and unfortunately was not following the program closely at the time, so I don't have anything in my notes.
 
Phoenix_jz said:
The first is that we do not know the Portuguese mix of missiles. Aster 15 is cheaper than Aster 30 B1 - and especially B1NT - and depending on the exact mix of missiles, they could actually be paying significantly less than the Greeks for, say, the same 100 missiles.
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Yes for Aster 15 "B0" vs Aster 30 B1 / B1NT ... but i would bet that by 2030 only Aster 15EC will be in production.

If i understand it right, the only difference between 15EC and 30B1NT will be the booster size and booster manufacturer (Aster 15 by Roxel / Aster 30 by Avio).

Phoenix_jz said:
FWIW, the Greeks up until recently were buying at around a 1.2 ratio - 116x Aster 30 B1 for 96 A50 cells and 29x MM40 Block 3 Exocet for 24 canisters on deck - but that may have changed since the fourth ship was added.
...
Though, correct me if I'm wrong - has not been activated, yet? My understanding was that the Hellenic Navy had taken the option for the fourth ship (€922M) and for the upgrades of the initial ships to Standard 2+ (€61M), but not opted for the €200M munitions package. I am struggling to find figures for the cost of munitions for the first three ships and unfortunately was not following the program closely at the time, so I don't have anything in my notes.
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Yes, 116 Aster 30 B1 and 29 MM40 B3C for the first 3 FDI (can't find the contract value either), while no MBDA weapons package has been signed yet for ship nº4.
 
Titus K said:
Yes for Aster 15 "B0" vs Aster 30 B1 / B1NT ... but i would bet that by 2030 only Aster 15EC will be in production.

If i understand it right, the only difference between 15EC and 30B1NT will be the booster size and booster manufacturer (Aster 15 by Roxel / Aster 30 by Avio).
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Quite probably it will just be Aster 15 EC, yeah.

Though my understanding is different. It should not use an identical dart to Aster 30 Block 1NT - which has many adaptations that make them more suited (but also more expensive) for dealing with very high speed targets like ballistic missile RV's and HGVs.

"Enhanced Capability" I think is the key thing here - on Aster 30 Block 1NT, these included a range of improvements that were included in the missile independent of the ABM-oriented modifications to the seeker and warhead.

This includes a mix of hardware changes and software changes. For hardware, there was a refresh on the weapon controller computer and inertial sensor, and new thermal batteries that can power these on-board systems longer. There is also improved software that is allowing for better flight trajectories - which is how the missile is achieving so much greater effective range in spite of there being zero changes to the propulsion systems.

That Aster 15 EC is being referred to as 15 EC, rather than 'Aster 15 Block 1NT" or "Aster 15 New Technology" or something like that... that makes me think that it is just bringing these more general improvements to the table, rather than just mating the Aster 30 B1NT dart to the shorter Roxel booster.
 
Titus K said:
116 Aster 30 B1 and 29 MM40 B3C for the first 3 FDI (can't find the contract value either)
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Do you have a source for that? All I’ve read is speculation about what missile load Greece acquired, with many assuming a multiple of 1.4-1.5x.

MBDA’s price for the first 3 frigates was €650M, including 5 years support. This can be found on Greek Parliament website which published the Naval Group and MBDA contracts here… see page 321:
https://www.hellenicparliament.gr/UserFiles/bcc26661-143b-4f2d-8916-0e0e66ba4c50/11873429.pdf
 
H_K said:
Do you have a source for that? All I’ve read is speculation about what missile load Greece acquired, with many assuming a multiple of 1.4-1.5x.
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I’ve never seen the source document, but this quantity of missiles has been shared multiple times by Dimitris Mitsopoulos from NavalNews on twitter.

H_K said:
MBDA’s price for the first 3 frigates was €650M, including 5 years support. This can be found on Greek Parliament website which published the Naval Group and MBDA contracts here… see page 321:
https://www.hellenicparliament.gr/UserFiles/bcc26661-143b-4f2d-8916-0e0e66ba4c50/11873429.pdf
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I know that the time 2 contracts were signed with MBDA simultaneously, one for the armement of 3 FDI and one for the armement of the last 6 Rafales.
But €650M for 116 Aster B1 + 29 Exocets sounds ridiculously high , maybe it includes modernization of their Exocets stockpiles to the the latest standard for example ?
 
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