Sukhoi Su-57 flight testing and development

[Elysium]

More pics of display model featuring flat nozzles.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1989939342270489056

View: https://x.com/MuxelAero/status/1989939342270489056?s=20

I wish we could see some pictures of the intakes as well. The Su-57 has been designed with intakes that come off in a single piece and are situated outside of the aircraft's body - I wouldn't be surprised if there was a good reason for that.

 

[lancer21]

I wish we could see some pictures of the intakes as well. The Su-57 has been designed with intakes that come off in a single piece and are situated outside of the aircraft's body - I wouldn't be surprised if there was a good reason for that.

Found this.
View: https://x.com/MuxelAero/status/1989939342270489056

 

[Geo]

Development of the Su-57, or most Russian aircraft for that matter, is not frozen, it follows a continuous evolutive approach. Several other features will keep "adding years" to the development, all while the plane is perfectly operational.

BTW, 20% improvement over AL-41F1 is 180 kN, but ok. Any source for those words from Marchukov anyway?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1866523221690057185

View: https://x.com/piotr_butowski/status/1866523221690057185

 

[Geo]

And now the jackpot question: What is the real thrust of the Al-41F-1?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1990040663052992794

View: https://x.com/MuxelAero/status/1990040663052992794

 

[Anduriel]

And now the jackpot question: What is the real thrust of the Al-41F-1?

Jackpot question is what a thrust of izd.30 if they could get 16 tons in 905mm diameter. izd.30 uses even more advanced tech and likely at least 924mm.

 

[RadicalDisconnect]

The izd.30 is most likely 932mm intake diameter, same as izd.117 (AL-41F-1) because it drop in replacement on Su-57.

For izd.177, since its 3 stage LPC, I wonder if it’s a slightly scaled down izd.30 (AL-51F-1) LPC design (also 3 stage LPC called izd.129), while core is perhaps evolved from AL-41F-1 and more oriented for export. So LPC scaled down to 905mm for compatibility on all Flankers that’s not Su-35.

 

[lastdingo]

Whole series of photos of the nozzles here and in replies:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1989939342270489056

View: https://x.com/MuxelAero/status/1989939342270489056?s=20


(same model as lancer21 showed today)

 

[kizvy]

would 177s be for flankers/al31f/fp replacement, and then 177 for 5th gen fighter? or are both able to be used for 5th gen/flankers

 

[Lepespi]

both can be ordered for both 5th gen designs, and the 57e reportedly can already supercruise with the 177s

 

[flateric]

https://shorturl.at/O31BC

Marina Lystceva photos from DAS'25

 

[Geo]

And to make it not so simple, there is an idea to shrink the 177 to the dimensions of the RD-33 and create essentially the equivalent of the F414(-EPE).

 

[Squirrel]

And now the jackpot question: What is the real thrust of the Al-41F-1?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1990040663052992794

View: https://x.com/MuxelAero/status/1990040663052992794

AL-41F-1 ? Izdeliye 117 ?

After so many years ? Hm ...

OK friend .. max static thrust on the MP mode ( standard parameters : H=0,V=0, t=15°C) is 9500kgf .

Max static thrust on the Full AB mode ( combat mode) is : 14500kgf
Max static thrust on the Full AB mode ( special mode) is : 15000kgf

Max ( possible ) dynamic thrust during take-off and climb to 1000m can be : 18000kgf

P.S.

Keep in mind that dry weight of the AL-41F-1 is only 1380kg ( 150 kg lighter than AL-31F with the dry weight of 1530kg ).

Weight of the AL-41F-1 with the lubricants ( engine oil ) can be about 1400kg.So we have 1400kg heavy engine that can produce even 18000kgf of the dynamic thrust during take-off and initial climb to 1000m .T/w ratio ???

 

[RadicalDisconnect]

Keep in mind that dry weight of the AL-41F-1 is only 1380kg

AL-41F-1 (izd.117) does not weight that little. It’s largely same engine as AL-41F-1S (izd.117S) with main different of control system integrated into Su-57 instead of separate unit and some small component different, both weight about 1,600kg.

AL-51F-1 (izd.30) weighs about 1,450kg with about 17tf thrust max (UEC presentation 2021 shows 16% lower specific gravity, or inverse of T/W ratio, than izd.117).

 

[Squirrel]

AL-41F-1 (izd.117) does not weight that little. It’s largely same engine as AL-41F-1S (izd.117S) with main different of control system integrated into Su-57 instead of separate unit and some small component different, both weight about 1,600kg.

AL-51F-1 (izd.30) weighs about 1,450kg with about 17tf thrust max (UEC presentation 2021 shows 16% lower specific gravity, or inverse of T/W ratio, than izd.117).

Sorry but AL-41F-1 is 150kg lighter than AL-31F .So we have 1530-150kg =1380kg .That's it.

''По сравнению с серийным АЛ-31Ф новый двигатель также стал на 150 кг легче и имел повышенную на 15-20% тягу, доведенную до 14-15 тонн.''

''Compared to the serial AL-31F, the new engine also became 150 kg lighter and had a 15-20% increase in thrust, reaching 14-15 tons.''

Пятое отклонение // АвиаПорт.Новости

Тендер на создание двигателя пятого поколения второго этапа, по сути, становится для участвующих в нем предприятий вопросом сохранения моторостроительного направления. Победитель тендера будет обеспечен работой как минимум на ближайшие тридцать лет

www.aviaport.ru

Again, dry weight of the Izd 117 or AL-41F-1 is 1380kg.

AL-51F ( not F-1 ) or Izd 30 ? It is about 100 kg lighter than AL-41F-1. Max static thrust on the Full AB mode ( combat mode ) 18000kgf and 19500 kgf on the Special mode.

That is static thrust ,what about dynamic thrusts? With lubricants. engine oil , weight is about 1300kg. Max (possible) dynamic thrust during take off and initial climb to 1000m ( especially on cold weather) can be more than 20000kgf.

 

[RadicalDisconnect]

These numbers are absolute comedy. So izd.30 (AL-51F-1) according to these figures have 13.8-15 T/W ratio. They must be made of paper mache or something. Yet still have strength to maintain rotor speeds at Mach 1.5 supercruise. And have 4,000+ hour lifespan. Must be the strongest paper mache infused with physics defying properties.

Or in other words, izd.30 according to these numbers makes similar thrust as F135 but weigh half as much. LMAO.

 

[LMFS]

Dry thrust of 177 is 11tf, on an export version of UEC's 5th gen technology. Plus best in class specific thrust, as stated by Marchukov for izd. 30. Make your conclusions.

https://shorturl.at/O31BC

Link does not work for me

 

[RadicalDisconnect]

Thrust…at what conditions?

Izd.177 reminds me of P&W’s F100-PW-232 from the late 1990s and early 2000s. Basically F119 fan/LPC scaled down to F100 size for 275 lb/s to optimize for F-16 “Big Mouth” intake, with 32,500lbf (14,770kgf) thrust afterburner, and 34,000lbf (15,450kgf) thrust in time-limit Vmax mode. It weighs 4,100lbs (1,864kg).
https://www.flightglobal.com/fighter-engine-boasts-pandw-engineering/30952.article

While izd.30 is newer, it’s laughable thinking it can achieve nearly 14-15 T/W ratio based on numbers being thrown around here. These engines must have some magic physics-defying fairy dust then. Did Marchukov state actual thrust numbers, or are people getting carried away with optimistic multiplications?

 

[Lepespi]

AL-41F-1 (izd.117) does not weight that little. It’s largely same engine as AL-41F-1S (izd.117S) with main different of control system integrated into Su-57 instead of separate unit and some small component different, both weight about 1,600kg.

AL-51F-1 (izd.30) weighs about 1,450kg with about 17tf thrust max (UEC presentation 2021 shows 16% lower specific gravity, or inverse of T/W ratio, than izd.117).

this is most probably right, there's no way the 117 weights only 1380kg and the izd30 is certainly not only 1300 nor is it making 19 tons of thrust, this guy is tripping. 1450kg with 17 tons is already 11,7 T/W wet and that's superb

 

[Life of Tyo]

Why did no one find this part suspicious?

View attachment 791806

That was "Pyramidal Absorber" to Reduce off Side Lobe radar Transmitter and can decrease Front RCS Aircraftwe know Radar array Size never same like Radome.
I remember from Post Flankerchan on FB

MiG-29M2/MiG-35 use to

 

[Squirrel]

These numbers are absolute comedy. So izd.30 (AL-51F-1) according to these figures have 13.8-15 T/W ratio. They must be made of paper mache or something. Yet still have strength to maintain rotor speeds at Mach 1.5 supercruise. And have 4,000+ hour lifespan. Must be the strongest paper mache infused with physics defying properties.

Or in other words, izd.30 according to these numbers makes similar thrust as F135 but weigh half as much. LMAO.

Than ask E.Marchukov. He said that AL-41F-1 has 11:1 t/w ratio: 15000kgf/1380kg ( as the max static thrust on the Full AB mode and the dry weight).

 

[Tinkywinky]

That was "Pyramidal Absorber" to Reduce off Side Lobe radar Transmitter and can decrease Front RCS Aircraftwe know Radar array Size never same like Radome.
I remember from Post Flankerchan on FB

So that’s what he meant by the non-transparent orange part. But we do know the spatial position of the MiG-35’s radar.

 

[lancer21]

This is a pretty image (from link above).
(C) Marina Lystceva

 

[Deino]

Another one ...

 

[flateric]

wait for the numbers

 

[Deino]

wait for the numbers

Pardon? Numbers of aircraft built, serial / bort number applied or performance data?

And one more via @Stephen Bridgewater on LinkedIn

 

[flateric]

Performance data

 

[Squirrel]

this is most probably right, there's no way the 117 weights only 1380kg and the izd30 is certainly not only 1300 nor is it making 19 tons of thrust, this guy is tripping. 1450kg with 17 tons is already 11,7 T/W wet and that's superb

That is your opinion OK but E.Marchukov and V.Masalov said some things and details about AL-41F-1 or Izd 117.

The basis was AL-31F but with 80% completely new details and parts ( of course ,diameter was increased from 905 to 932mm). AL-41F-1 is 150kg lighter than AL-31F ( 1530kg-150kg=1380kg ).It was said by both of them several times. Marchukov mentioned its t/w ratio of 11:1 .

Двигатель "первого этапа" АЛ-41Ф-1 для истребителя Су-57 запущен в серийное производство

Как сообщило 23 апреля 2019 года информационное агентство ТАСС , двигатель первого этапа АЛ-41Ф-1 для истребителя Су-57 запущен в серийное производство, рабочая конструкторская документация (РКД) двигателя передана производителям в ноябре 2018 года. Это следует из презентации ОКБ имени…

bmpd.livejournal.com

While izd.30 is newer, it’s laughable thinking it can achieve nearly 14-15 T/W ratio based on numbers being thrown around here. These engines must have some magic physics-defying fairy dust then. Did Marchukov state actual thrust numbers, or are people getting carried away with optimistic multiplications?

Izd 30 or AL-51F began static tests from Nov 2016 and flight tests from Dec 2017 as we know.

In the meantime ,some data and info about him was presented by E.Marchukov and V.Masalov.

''Что касается двигателя «второго этапа» для Т-50 «изделие 30», то он должен быть на 17-18% эффективнее двигателя «117». ''

''As for the "second stage" engine for the T-50, "Product 30," it should be 17-18% more efficient than the "117" engine.''

''Сообщалось, что эти двигатели превосходят АЛ-41Ф1 по основным параметрам на 15-25 процентов и могут обеспечивать сверхзвуковую крейсерскую скорость полета.''

''It was reported that these engines outperform the AL-41F1 in key parameters by 15-25 percent and can provide supersonic cruising speed.''

Efficient meaning : better specific weight,specific thrust and specific fuel consumption. Izd 30 is lighter and shorter than Izd 117.





What has been published about Izd 30 so far : TIT =2100K ( 1827°C), compression ratio = 6.7, the air consumption is 21-23 kg/s. Max static thrust: on the MP mode =11000kgf, on the Full AB mode= 18000kgf ( combat mode-boyevoy), =19500kgf ( special mode-osobiy).

''Этот двигатель существенно превосходит все современные двигатели в своем классе по мощи, топливной эффективности и сниженной стоимостью жизненного цикла. По результатам испытаний, ресурс АЛ-51Ф1 вырос практически в 2 раза, по сравнению с АЛ-41Ф1.
Более того, в отличие от предшественника, КПД от сгорания топлива АЛ-51Ф1, в зависимости от режима работы, повысился более чем в 1,5 раза.''

''This engine significantly outperforms all modern engines in its class in terms of power, fuel efficiency, and reduced lifecycle costs. Test results show that the AL-51F1's service life has nearly doubled compared to the AL-41F1.
Moreover, unlike its predecessor, the efficiency of fuel combustion of the AL-51F1, depending on the operating mode, has increased by more than 1.5 times.''

Also there is story about that new kind of the AB chamber of Izd 30.Marchukov said some details about that.



Source:

С новыми моторами АЛ-51Ф1 Су-57М стал безоговорочно лучшим истребителем пятого поколения в мире - Альтернативная История

С новыми моторами АЛ-51Ф1 Су-57М стал безоговорочно лучшим истребителем пятого поколения в мире - Альтернативная История

alternathistory.ru

 

[LMFS]

Performance data

Actual performance data of the VKS' izd. 30 will be published? That would be completely new...

What has been published about Izd 30 so far : TIT =2100K ( 1827°C), compression ratio = 6.7, the air consumption is 21-23 kg/s. Max static thrust: on the MP mode =11000kgf, on the Full AB mode= 18000kgf ( combat mode-boyevoy), =19500kgf ( special mode-osobiy).

I have never seen such data being published from official sources... the last link you mention raises questions, to be honest.

 

[Squirrel]

I have never seen such data being published from official sources... the last link you mention raises questions, to be honest.

There was sources like this which mentioned next details :

''Например, компания «Салют» разработала компрессор высокого давления, камеру сгорания и сопло двигателя "изделие 30" с управляемым вектором тяги. Двигатель будет выпускаться на ПАО «ОДК-УМПО» (сейчас там выпускается двигатель АЛ-41Ф1С или «изделие 117С» для истребителя Су-35С). Согласно данным производителя, газогенератор "изделия 30" имеет степень сжатия 6,7, расход воздуха составляет 21-23 кг/с. Температура газов перед турбиной достигает 1950-2100 градусов по Кельвину. Максимальная тяга составляет 17-18 тонн, что больше 15 тонн у двигателя "первого этапа" АЛ-41Ф1.''

''For example, the Salyut company developed a high-pressure compressor, a combustion chamber, and a nozzle for the Product 30 engine with a controlled thrust vector.
The engine will be manufactured at UEC-UMPO (currently producing the AL-41F1S engine, or "Product 117S," for the Su-35S fighter jet). According to the manufacturer, the "Product 30" gas generator has a compression ratio of 6.7, with an air flow rate of 21-23 kg/s.
The gas temperature in front of the turbine reaches 1950-2100 Kelvin. The maximum thrust is 17-18 tons, which is more than the 15 tons of the AL-41F1 "first stage" engine.''

This was from Dec 2017:

Пара слов о двигателе "изделие 30"

В издании AirCosmos была опубликована статья Izdeliye 30 eqiupe le Su-57 , которая интересна взглядов из-за рубежа на испытания нового российского двигателя второго этапа изделие 30 для перспективного истребителя ПАК ФА. Так, в статье…

bmpd.livejournal.com

Maybe those mentioned values were result of the static tests. About that link for the article,it is important to see what Marchukov said about Izd 30.There is some interesting details.

 

[Erdosain]

Russia Offers Su-57 Nozzle Upgrade In Export Drive | Aviation Week Network

Russia is showing off a potential stealth upgrade for the Su-57’s radar-exposed engine nozzles as part of a wider propulsion update on behalf of the fighter.

aviationweek.com

 

[Erdosain]

Russiaâs Su-57E fifth-generation fighter makes first flight in Middle East airspace

The aircraft was piloted by distinguished test pilot and Hero of Russia Sergey Bogdan

tass.com

Russiaâs Su-57 fighter jet showcased in Middle East first time

The Su-57 is piloted by Hero of Russia Sergey Bogdan, Chief Pilot of the Sukhoi Design Bureau at United Aircraft Corporation

tass.com

Russia plans to hold talks on Su-57 jet exports at Dubai Airshow

Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Director Dmitry Shugayev noted that the Su-57 is a high-tech military product whose creation involves many suppliers

tass.com

 

[Erdosain]

Su-57 remains controllable even in critical flight modes â Sukhoi bureauâs chief pilot

Sergey Bogdan said this feature is vital for pilots because it allows them to operate without distraction, focusing on mission objectives rather than flight stability concerns

tass.com

AI is integral part of SU-57 used in special operation zone â Russiaâs first deputy PM

Denis Manturov elaborated that AI technology significantly enhances pilots' decision-making speed and enables simultaneous control of the aircraft and its weapons systems

tass.com

 

[RadicalDisconnect]

For example, the Salyut company developed a high-pressure compressor, a combustion chamber, and a nozzle for the Product 30 engine with a controlled thrust vector.

This is hilarious because Salyut isn’t developing the izd.30, it’s Saturn and UMPO.

This isn’t an official source despite you trying to present it as one.

 

[kizvy]

What has been published about Izd 30 so far : TIT =2100K ( 1827°C), compression ratio = 6.7, the air consumption is 21-23 kg/s. Max static thrust: on the MP mode =11000kgf, on the Full AB mode= 18000kgf ( combat mode-boyevoy), =19500kgf ( special mode-osobiy).

this makes no sense. why is special mode 1500 kgf more than normal mode. Usually it is 500 only. As well, I have never seen such high numbers for al-51 mentioned before. From what I understand, al-51 will likely be 16500 kgf normal, and 17000 kgf max if we assume 500 kgf special mode.

 

[kizvy]

There was sources like this which mentioned next details :

''Например, компания «Салют» разработала компрессор высокого давления, камеру сгорания и сопло двигателя "изделие 30" с управляемым вектором тяги. Двигатель будет выпускаться на ПАО «ОДК-УМПО» (сейчас там выпускается двигатель АЛ-41Ф1С или «изделие 117С» для истребителя Су-35С). Согласно данным производителя, газогенератор "изделия 30" имеет степень сжатия 6,7, расход воздуха составляет 21-23 кг/с. Температура газов перед турбиной достигает 1950-2100 градусов по Кельвину. Максимальная тяга составляет 17-18 тонн, что больше 15 тонн у двигателя "первого этапа" АЛ-41Ф1.''

''For example, the Salyut company developed a high-pressure compressor, a combustion chamber, and a nozzle for the Product 30 engine with a controlled thrust vector.
The engine will be manufactured at UEC-UMPO (currently producing the AL-41F1S engine, or "Product 117S," for the Su-35S fighter jet). According to the manufacturer, the "Product 30" gas generator has a compression ratio of 6.7, with an air flow rate of 21-23 kg/s.
The gas temperature in front of the turbine reaches 1950-2100 Kelvin. The maximum thrust is 17-18 tons, which is more than the 15 tons of the AL-41F1 "first stage" engine.''

This was from Dec 2017:

Пара слов о двигателе "изделие 30"

В издании AirCosmos была опубликована статья Izdeliye 30 eqiupe le Su-57 , которая интересна взглядов из-за рубежа на испытания нового российского двигателя второго этапа изделие 30 для перспективного истребителя ПАК ФА. Так, в статье…

bmpd.livejournal.com

Maybe those mentioned values were result of the static tests. About that link for the article,it is important to see what Marchukov said about Izd 30.There is some interesting details.

it says max thrust 17-18 tons right in your article. where did 19500 kgf come from

 

[Anduriel]

this makes no sense. why is special mode 1500 kgf more than normal mode. Usually it is 500 only. As well, I have never seen such high numbers for al-51 mentioned before. From what I understand, al-51 will likely be 16500 kgf normal, and 17000 kgf max if we assume 500 kgf special mode.

Not necessary. Just look at R-25-300. 69kN wet, 97kN emergency.
And we have 16t at izd.177 at 905mm diameter. Which is only using some of the tech of izd.30. Just increase from 905 to 924 or 932mm inlet diameter could give more than 0.5tf

 

[kizvy]

Not necessary. Just look at R-25-300. 69kN wet, 97kN emergency.

Sorry, should’ve clarified for flanker/su-57/su-75 class engines. From what I remember, al-31fp, al-41-f1s and al-31f serie 3 all have emergency mode that’s around 500 kgf (although I think serie 3 is slightly lower)

 

[Squirrel]

This is hilarious because Salyut isn’t developing the izd.30, it’s Saturn and UMPO.

This isn’t an official source despite you trying to present it as one.

Read again pls ....

it says max thrust 17-18 tons right in your article. where did 19500 kgf come from

Again ...

С новыми моторами АЛ-51Ф1 Су-57М стал безоговорочно лучшим истребителем пятого поколения в мире - Альтернативная История

С новыми моторами АЛ-51Ф1 Су-57М стал безоговорочно лучшим истребителем пятого поколения в мире - Альтернативная История

alternathistory.ru

 

[flateric]

"It's written on the Russian Sohu blogs clone and reprinted at the site dubbed Alternate History, hence this is absolute truth"(TM)

 

[kizvy]

Russian Sohu clone

What does this refer to/mean?