Depends on what the demonstrator is demonstrating.
If its just a collection of Rafale parts with Rafale engines in a faceted airframe then what is it demonstrating? Ultimately a technology demonstrator has to do what the label says or its a waste of money.

Why for example should Dassault transfer its decades of fly-by-wire and FCS software experience to Airbus DS? Why should Thales give away its Spectra warfare suite (which the French government has spent billions on)?
Because its meant to be a collaborative programme?

The French government is surely "giving away" Spectra on every Rafale it sells, unless Rafale buyers are paying a special premium to cover slice of the billions of R&D spent on it?
 
I don't know compagnies that would rescind on a billion euro contract arguing they are too busy... Strange idea you have there.
If you don't have the capacity, you don't have the capacity. You see it quite a lot in WW2 aircraft procurement "Supermarine's design was rated the highest, but their work on Spitfire meant they would not be able to address it until 1942." or "Grumman are quite desperate to be released from the TSF contract due to lack of design capacity."
 
Doesn't Germany have the lead for MGCS (even though it's going nowhere as well)? Can't France just make even more concessions about that and Germany make concessions on FCAS. Cause the way I see it, France will NEVER make any concessions about a fighter jet, they've left 2 joint project in the past and they'll do again if they don't get what they want, even if it'll be more painful for all parties involved this time.

I just wished both sides would take a decision already. Can you believe it, FCAS and MGCS have been annouced over 7 years ago already for absolutely zero tangible results
 
France will NEVER make any concessions about a fighter jet, they've left 2 joint project in the past
I’m aware of EFA but I’m drawing a blank on the 2nd joint project. Which one are you referring to??
 
for intelectual property problems (EJ200 for exemple is not german or spanish. It can't be used without the formal agreement of the 2 others).
Is this actually an issue? It doesn't seem to have come out in the press. The UK GCAP demonstrator is using EJ200 and Eurofighter components etc. without issue from Germany or Spain.

I would have expected the NGF demonstrator to have a blend of French, German and Spanish components rather than being a Rafale in a new skin. e.g. EJ200 for higher thrust
 
I would have expected the NGF demonstrator to have a blend of French, German and Spanish components rather than being a Rafale in a new skin
I'm also intrigued about the choice of Rafale vs. Eurofighter components for the NGF demonstrator.

That said, since you're dismissing the NGF demonstrator as just "Rafale in a new skin"... shouldn't we also dismiss the UK demonstrator as "Eurofighter in a new skin"? Just pointing out that it's rather disingenuous to criticize a demonstrator for using off the shelf engines, landing gear, actuators etc in one case, but not in the other.
 
That said, since you're dismissing the NGF demonstrator as just "a Rafale in a new skin"... shouldn't we dismiss the UK demonstrator as "Eurofighter in a new skin"?
I'll freely do that too

To echo @Hood 's point, then it's very unclear what either project is actually "demonstrating" Vs being very expensive re-learning exercises for new personnel who haven't designed an aircraft before. Still - it'd cost more if silly mistakes got made on the real projects.
 
Completing the above ( @red admiral beat me on the line):

I would suggest refraining finger pointing other project while cross posting from one thread to the other. These behavior aren´t gonna help to keep the thread focused.

We don´t know what is their intend to demonstrate with the engine. They are not going to strap an engine just to make some tight barrel rolls at public airshows.
We could have a stealthy TVC, 3rd stream or even electrostatic effectors... No one know what the propulsion choices are at this day, hence why Dassault/Safran request an M-88, something that makes sense to assess scalability of a conceptual design.
 
Doesn't Germany have the lead for MGCS (even though it's going nowhere as well)? Can't France just make even more concessions about that and Germany make concessions on FCAS. Cause the way I see it, France will NEVER make any concessions about a fighter jet, they've left 2 joint project in the past and they'll do again if they don't get what they want, even if it'll be more painful for all parties involved this time.

I just wished both sides would take a decision already. Can you believe it, FCAS and MGCS have been annouced over 7 years ago already for absolutely zero tangible results
Well they did spend money on it already ;)
But wasn't there also heavy fighting about MGCS if i remember it right
 
The AFVG (Anglo-French Variable Geometry) sweep wing fighter with the UK that France left in 1967 after working on it for 2 years.
Ah I see. That's a misreading of AFVG IMHO... which wasn't a partnership failure, but simply a matter of both countries' requirements diverging to a point of total incompatibility, for reasons that made sense for each side (so no reason to blame anyone).
  • On the UK side, the 1966 Defence White Paper reversed priorities, cancelling the requirement for a naval AFVG and changing the emphasis from a fighter/interceptor to a heavy 20t+ long range strike aircraft (to replace carrier strike).
  • On the French side, the 1966 NATO partial withdrawal also led to a reversal in priorities, in the opposite direction, from a strike aircraft to a multi-mission interceptor. The naval requirement remained.
This all happened after less than 12 months of conceptual studies, i.e. just when they had made some progress on aligning requirements. The requirements definition efforts had to restart from scratch but failed to find any overlap in the Venn diagram between the 2 countries... 9 months later AFVG was officially buried. France went with the Mirage F1 and the UK continued with F-111K for a few months... talk about differing requirements!

EDIT: The 1967 UK parliamentary debates accurately reflect the immaturity and uncertainties surrounding AFVG just 2 months before it was cancelled, highlighting that it was very much a hypothetical aircraft, with no firm requirements ("not even a paper airplane"). https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...-441c-b161-ff6ad165c204/F111kAircraftContract
 
Last edited:
Depends on what the demonstrator is demonstrating.
If its just a collection of Rafale parts with Rafale engines in a faceted airframe then what is it demonstrating? Ultimately a technology demonstrator has to do what the label says or its a waste of money.
I think we've far passed the time of doing a F-117 type of thing.
Because its meant to be a collaborative programme?
Sorry but this is a bit naive ? Does GB and Bae gave away for free some of their experience gained during previous decades to all other partners when doing the Typhoon to help them develop their def industry ?

When some politics (French and German) tell that this program is "strategic", It is quite possible that the idea for them is of creating a true ‘Airbus of defence’ (which Airbus DS is certainly not at the moment) which could compete with LM in Europe, just as Airbus itself has succeeded against Boeing. To achieve this, on the French side, Aérospatiale had been merged into Airbus, but it was a public company and, for civil projects, this was ‘easier’ and ultimately very successful.
It is clear that for certains, merging Dassault into a super Airbus DS would ultimately be the dream scenario.
But Dassault doesn't want to be eaten. I can't blame them.
The French government is surely "giving away" Spectra on every Rafale it sells, unless Rafale buyers are paying a special premium to cover slice of the billions of R&D spent on it?
Is selling it, and for lots of €€. Plus, not sure all buyer get all the database with it.
 
Last edited:
That said, since you're dismissing the NGF demonstrator as just "Rafale in a new skin"... shouldn't we also dismiss the UK demonstrator as "Eurofighter in a new skin"? Just pointing out that it's rather disingenuous to criticize a demonstrator for using off the shelf engines, landing gear, actuators etc in one case, but not in the other.
I would echo @red admiral's point. I'm not entirely sure what value either demonstrator is. We don't really know enough about what goodies might be fitted in them, its clear existing engines are being used (at least initially) for sensible practical reasons (the new engines are nowhere near test ready), but comments in the past that the airframes might not be indicative of the final design also implies they might not be entirely useful for aerodynamic testing. Maybe something more concrete will come out nearer the time, but at the moment I'm not seeing a "bleeding edge" that's pushing the boundaries of what either group is capable of producing and "Demonstrator" doesn't seem to be new-age technobabble for what was a classic "prototype".

I think we've far passed the time of doing a F-117 type of thing.
Ok, does F-22 clone airframe sound any better? Perhaps LO Generic Fighter is a better description since they all look much of a muchness.
 
I miss when jets all looked different, we're about to enter an era of identical planes soon. Damned convergence...
 
Update on FCAS by the French MoD / DGA in front of parliament, with some details about the key elements being negotiated.
  • 51% of NGF pillar for Dassault (decision rights or work share? Unclear... the ask is "clear leadership")
  • 2040 IOC date "at the latest"... red line for the French MoD
  • 110kN thrust engines
  • Freedom to export
Let me correct a number of points. No, Dassault did not ask to build NGF alone. And claims in the media that Dassault wants 80% of the NGF pillar are wrong. What Dassault is asking for is 51% of this pillar. It’s simply asking for clear leadership on the aircraft’s architecture. I’ll remind you that it was agreed that this pillar is under French leadership, so our ask is merely for simplified governance rather than constant back-and-forth between each sub-contractor.

We are working on launching Phase II to build a prototype. Today, one path forward is to improve the governance and industrial responsibilities in order to respect our three red lines. We have three red lines: first, the Initial Operating Capability date in 2040 at the latest. Second, we need engines with enough thrust - I touched on this earlier when talking about the T-REX program. Third, we need the freedom to export… we are also having discussions about this.

Currently we are not looking at what comes after FCAS. We are not looking at what was spent or how to exit. The political leaders have agreed to work out a solution before the end of the year, so we are working with our German and Spanish colleagues to resolve these challenges.

View: https://www.youtube.com/live/z-7ruHTwbVY?si=JV38VAG2kZnSDmOg&t=4129
 
Last edited:
Late to the party but a true sixth gen aircraft must have the power and cooling sufficient to enable a compute infrastructure capable of running several types of AI processes at once.

Doesn’t matter if you’re a cheetah or an antelope, when the sun comes up (or sets), the slowest OODA loops dies first.
 
Thats the same article posted before in german.
And like the famous “80% workshare” it’s a strawman argument which twists reality.

Germany will always retain control of the final product and progress through the joint requirements document and joint program office which ensure that each pillar meets the clients’ needs. That’s no different for NGF than the other pillars, irrespective of how work is organized within each pillar under the prime’s day-to-day management.
 
Last edited:
Looks like France will go it alone again come what may like the Rafale. They may even get a fighter that better suites them especially to cover the nuclear mission that is to carry the fourth generation nuclear cruise missile which is from what I have read in the current issue of Air Forces Monthly is to be far heavier than the current ASMP-A.
 
Free to leave:



Note that the title and the first paragraph contradict each other. If the quotes are correct, Airbus CEO Guillaume Faury isn't telling France they're free to leave, he's telling Dassault (and Dassault CEO Eric Trappier) that they're free to leave. This round isn't a spat at the governmental level, but at the contractor level.

And note that's not Airbus Deutschland speaking, it's Airbus in its entirety, under its French CEO.

Unfortunately it does demonstrate a complete breakdown in relations between the two programme primes, so the difference may not be significant.
 
I don't think there is any doubt into that, except with a twisted mind that would stop their review at the headline. But fact is that Dassault is the body of France trilparties participation in the NGF, the manned component of FCAS.

So tomato, tomahto, let's call...

It is also a consequence of Airbus absolute reign on manufacturing centers in Europe with their massive airliner output.
Dassault should remember that having no output is like having not much of a voice, no matter what political backups you have or press magazines you own.
 
Last edited:
So how long will it be before Dassault gets aborbed into Airbus completely and Airbus becomes just like BAE Systems in the UK?
 
The problem of France is his president unable to do nothing well , FCAS is dead. He have no credibility to work the FCAS program well.
 
The problem of France is his president unable to do nothing well , FCAS is dead. He have no credibility to work the FCAS program well.
Sir, do you realise most of your comments are about it being deceased already ?
I know it smells bad, but please, we are not even at rigor mortis. Wait for the official death notice at least.

Anyway here translated is a recent Le Monde paper ( From O. Pinaud ), no much news, but some insights.

The Franco-German fighter jet: an ambitious but overly political project

Launched in 2017 by Emmanuel Macron and Angela Merkel, the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) project is suffering from competition between manufacturers as well as differences between Berlin and Paris.

On 1 October, in an interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Emmanuel Macron called on France and Germany to ‘stay the course of what we consider to be in the general Franco-German interest’. This ‘general interest’ is the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), a defence programme launched in July 2017 by the French President at the beginning of his first term and the then Chancellor, Angela Merkel.

The largest Franco-German industrial cooperation project, with a total estimated cost of between €80 billion and €100 billion, this ultra-modern air combat system, combining new-generation fighter aircraft, combat drones, sensors, hypersonic missiles, and computer and communication networks that are protected and resistant to electronic warfare, is set to replace the French Rafale fighter jet, manufactured by Dassault Aviation, and the Eurofighter, produced by the Franco-German-Spanish Airbus, Italy's Leonardo and Britain's BAE Systems, by 2040. The aim is to have an operational system in place until 2080.

At its launch, SCAF symbolised the renewal of relations between Paris and Berlin. It also laid the foundations for a possible European defence policy. Spain joined the programme in February 2019 and Belgium obtained observer status in April 2024, which will enable it to join the organisation at a later stage.

Eight years later, despite thirty-six months of research, nearly 2,000 engineers working on plans for the new-generation fighter jet, the central pillar of the programme, and an initial budget of nearly €3 billion, the promise of the SCAF has never been so fragile. With phase 2, which aims to produce a demonstrator, due to begin in 2026, differences between Dassault Aviation and Airbus, which are responsible for manufacturing the aircraft, threaten to lead to an implosion. Last-ditch meetings between the French, German and Spanish defence ministers are expected in the coming weeks to try to get the project back on track, as requested by Emmanuel Macron.

If it fails, which cannot be ruled out, who would be responsible? The manufacturers, of course. The battle of egos between Dassault and Airbus over who is the most competent undermined the first phase of the programme. The two groups mistrust each other, a mistrust that has persisted since the failed merger in 1997 between Dassault and Aerospatiale, the French predecessor of Airbus.

Industrial property protection rules were hard-negotiated for SCAF, but both groups feared having to reveal some of their secrets. As for the ‘best athlete’ principle, which normally means choosing who will manufacture a particular part based on skills rather than nationality, it was not necessarily well accepted. "In certain areas, Dassault and Safran [the manufacturer of the new-generation fighter jet engine] may have to stop working with some of their usual French subcontractors and turn to German or Spanish companies instead. This is one of the obvious costs of international cooperation,‘ acknowledged a Senate information report, ’2040, the SCAF odyssey," published in July 2020.

"Furthermore, the SCAF programme is not viewed in exactly the same way by each of the partners. For France, it is essential for major manufacturers, who cannot afford to remain without a fighter aircraft and fighter aircraft engine project. German and Spanish manufacturers are not quite in the same situation: for them, it is more a question of developing expertise in these areas," the senators pointed out.

But the states will also have to take their share of the blame for the failure. Symbolic and ambitious, the 2017 political agreement underestimated the differences between the two countries. On the French side, the SCAF should assume the nuclear deterrence provided by Dassault Aviation's Rafale, a 100% French aircraft. On the German side, it should fulfil Berlin's nuclear responsibility on behalf of NATO. Is this compatible, particularly in view of France's imperative of full sovereignty in matters of deterrence? Conversely, could the strategic autonomy defended by the French armed forces enable the development of the German aeronautics industry, as Berlin hoped with the SCAF?
The two countries also have different needs. For France, the SCAF should be able to land and take off from the new-generation aircraft carrier, as the Rafale currently does on the Charles-de-Gaulle. This requires an aircraft that is easy to manoeuvre and lightweight. Germany, on the other hand, does not need a naval version. It can therefore afford to have a heavier aircraft capable of carrying more weapons. This would mean developing two versions.

Finally, there is the question of cost sharing. In recent weeks, the Bundestag has been particularly reluctant to support the SCAF, including some members of the Chancellor's coalition, such as Friedrich Merz. His fear is that ‘fair geographical return’ will not be guaranteed, meaning that the German economy will not benefit from economic spin-offs commensurate with the financial commitment of its taxpayers.

In the French camp, it is believed that the principle of fair geographical return is primarily a factor in additional costs and that sharing tasks does not necessarily mean savings. Supporters of a Plan B, i.e. a 100% French SCAF, including Dassault, like to point out that the Eurofighter, manufactured in three countries (Germany, the United Kingdom and Spain), cost each participating country more than the Rafale cost France.
 
Last edited:
If the quotes are correct, Airbus CEO Guillaume Faury isn't telling France they're free to leave, he's telling Dassault (and Dassault CEO Eric Trappier) that they're free to leave.
Which, thinking about it, has the interesting implication that Airbus is willing to continue FCAS development in competition with a Dassault-only aircraft.
 
Why does France always withdraw to go it alone whenever Europe jointly develops a combat timer? Could the M-88 engine be used in sixth-generation fighter jets?
 
Why does France always withdraw to go it alone whenever Europe jointly develops a combat timer? Could the M-88 engine be used in sixth-generation fighter jets?
Update on FCAS by the French MoD / DGA in front of parliament, with some details about the key elements being negotiated.
  • 51% of NGF pillar for Dassault (decision rights or work share? Unclear... the ask is "clear leadership")
  • 2040 IOC date "at the latest"... red line for the French MoD
  • 110kN thrust engines
  • Freedom to export


View: https://www.youtube.com/live/z-7ruHTwbVY?si=JV38VAG2kZnSDmOg&t=4129

How big is the FCAS? the thrust seems kind of low, is this just for the demonstrator?
Maybe a scaled up M88-4 but as I questioned before, 110kN seems kind of low and I haven’t gotten a clear answer to it yet.
 
Maybe a scaled up M88-4 but as I questioned before, 110kN seems kind of low and I haven’t gotten a clear answer to it yet.
I've heard this sentiment many times, but 2x 110kN for a 15/16 ton fighter seems plenty enough to me
Compared to F-22 or J-35 it actually seems generous right ?
 
I've heard this sentiment many times, but 2x 110kN for a 15/16 ton fighter seems plenty enough to me
Compared to F-22 or J-35 it actually seems generous right ?
We can look at the German studies immediately preceeding FCAS (DLR Future Fighter Demonstrator, aka Project Diabolo).

The FFD’s net thrust requirement was 112.7kN dry / 177.1kN wet (per engine). This required a 5m long engine with 1m inlet diameter, weighing 1875kg. Thrust also quoted elsewhere as 124kN dry / 183kN wet… possibly gross (uninstalled) engine rating.

The FFD design is quite big… 20.3m long x 14.8m wide with a 100m2 wing. Empty weight is ~16.5t. Take off weight clean is 28.3t with 8x AAMs (1.8t) and 10t internal fuel, increasing to 29.4t in air to ground configuration with internal weapons (4x AAMs + 4x 1,000lb JDAMs). Max take off weight is ~35t with external load. Combat radius is 780nm hi-hi-hi with internal fuel and 2.5min combat, or 550nm with 1hr CAP loiter.

I find these thrust numbers rather high IMHO. Dry thrust is driven by the Mach 1.4 supercruise requirement and wet thrust by requirements for supersonic maneuverability and Mach 2.0 top speed… see charts below. In addition, the wing is oversized (100m2) in order to enable subsonic cruise at 50,000ft, which increases structural weight and thrust requirements.

So perhaps thrust requirements could be cut by 10-20% to ~100kN dry and ~150kN wet with a few performance compromises (eg. supercruise at Mach 1.2 vs 1.4, top speed Mach 1.8 vs 2.0, subsonic cruise at 45kft vs 50kft). Also I would expect Dassault to be able to optimize the design a fair bit (eg. FFD weapons bay volume seems quite oversized).

From this previous German study on a similarly sized aircraft, the engine thrust requirements were up to 170-180kN. So like As H_K said before, I was expecting an engine with around 100kN dry thrust, and 150kN wet. Which makes the 110kN figure given more recently seems like a low value.

Even Assuming a 16 ton empty weight and a 26 ton standard load, 110kN engines would give the FCAS the lowest TW/R of any other 5th gen aircraft, and 5th gen proposals.
 
Last edited:
Two engines with 110kn of thrust is 16% greater than the F-35.

The F-35A weighs 13,290 kg. 16% heavier is 15,416kg.

Now if FCAS is 16 ton the thrust to weight is only a couple percent lower than the F-35A. It wouldn't take much for the FCAS to have low supercruise capability. All it would take is a wing and engine slightly more optimised for supercruise than the F-35A.

FCAS doesn't need the same thrust to weight ratio as the Rafale or Eurofighter to offer the same speed and acceleration. FCAS will have less drag due to internal weapons. It will no doubt have a higher fuel fraction to reduce the need for external tanks.

16 ton empty weight and 110kn engines seems perfect for a multi role fighter. Insane thrust to weight ratios to regain energy during a dogfight will no longer be a top priority.
 
Could the 110 kN be the dry thrust figure? Assuming 29 t gross weight (16-17 t empty, 10 t fuel, 2-3 t payload) 110 kN dry and 150-180 kN wet (maybe variable cycle allows for higher augmentation ratio) seems reasonable IMO.
 
Two engines with 110kn of thrust is 16% greater than the F-35.

The F-35A weighs 13,290 kg. 16% heavier is 15,416kg.

Now if FCAS is 16 ton the thrust to weight is only a couple percent lower than the F-35A. It wouldn't take much for the FCAS to have low supercruise capability. All it would take is a wing and engine slightly more optimised for supercruise than the F-35A.

FCAS doesn't need the same thrust to weight ratio as the Rafale or Eurofighter to offer the same speed and acceleration. FCAS will have less drag due to internal weapons. It will no doubt have a higher fuel fraction to reduce the need for external tanks.

16 ton empty weight and 110kn engines seems perfect for a multi role fighter. Insane thrust to weight ratios to regain energy during a dogfight will no longer be a top priority.
This is the correct answer. And it includes also Trappier's 34 t MTOW.
 
Personally, I wonder whether the bigger problem may come with regard to electric power generation. France going it alone and just tweaking the M-88 IP may leave it woefully behind in this area, while competitors appear to envisage powering ever larger sensing arrays and complex systems. Don't keep up and your aircraft may end up being very expensive target practice.
 
Last edited:
Sir, do you realise most of your comments are about it being deceased already ?
I know it smells bad, but please, we are not even at rigor mortis. Wait for the official death notice at least.

Anyway here translated is a recent Le Monde paper ( From O. Pinaud ), no much news, but some insights.
It smell very very bad , it will finish with Germany and Spain you will see. France have no money and no credible président to fight for the FCAS program , Dassault don't want to let Germany taking the lead on the fighter , it will finish very bad for the French part of FCAS.
 
It smell very very bad , it will finish with Germany and Spain you will see. France have no money and no credible président to fight for the FCAS program , Dassault don't want to let Germany taking the lead on the fighter , it will finish very bad for the French part of FCAS.
Ok, comme vous voulez. Mais je crois que vous n'avez pas bien saisi le sens de ma remarque.
Repeating in every one of your posts that "it's dead" is not gonna make you more "right" if it eventually happens.
It may reassure you in your obsessive dooms predictions/statements like "France have no money", "no credible...", "will finish very very bad", but it is repetitive, tiresome and nothing informative. Sorry to say, tried to make that clearer with humour, but it didn't worked.
 
Last edited:
Ok, comme vous voulez. Mais je crois que vous n'avez pas bien saisi le sens de ma remarque.
Repeating in every one of your posts that "it's dead" is not gonna make you more "right" if it eventually happens.
It may reassure you in your obsessive dooms predictions/statements like "France have no money", "no credible...", "will finish very very bad", but it is repetitive, tiresome and nothing informative. Sorry to say.
There is no news info instead of a battle between France and Germany on this program.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom